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  • Davis (42%, 361 Votes)
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Political Facelift For Don Saylor

I was not going to write about this, but I was just reading one of Bob Dunning’s columns this morning as I was waking up. Someone named Liz may or may not have written to Bob Dunning and he was responding. For those wondering, this column is not about Bob Dunning, but rather about this statement:

“‘Yet someone like Don Saylor, who appears to be sane, thoughtful, pragmatic, courteous and fair, rarely gets mentioned. Is that because he is boring or you don’t like him?'”

That led me to wonder when Don Saylor’s perception became “sane, thoughtful, pragmatic, courteous and fair?”

This is a man whose reputation in this town was the exact opposite. It was nearly a year ago to the date that I first wrote the column: “Who is Saylor to Lecture US on Civility in Public Discourse?

I wonder has this man so thoroughly been able to re-write his image that in people’s minds, he has become all of those above qualities? Gone now is the Don Saylor of old who was mean, nasty, and vindictive? Who would blow up at people on the street, berate people in that cool, measured voice? Do people really have no memories in political life or is it strictly a matter that no one is paying attention?

I am not going to regurgitate that whole column, but I do encourage people to read it, because it provides a lot of background into a variety of occurrences in Don Saylor’s political life prior to him re-inventing himself as Mr. Civility in April of last year ahead of his reelection campaign.

Ask numerous people in this community including former elected officials and you will get a very different version of Don Saylor.

There are many examples I could go into, but most of them I have heard either off the record or second hand. However, there is one that stands out to me more than any other. It was May 23, 2006, the last city council campaign was wrapping up and Julie Saylor wrote a letter to the Davis Enterprise. Now, far be it from me to attack an office holder’s spouse, but let us just say there is no reasonable way that this letter was written by anyone other than Don Saylor. And even if it was, there is no way that Julie sent this without at least Don’s permission or Don’s knowledge but I suspect that he had far more involvement than that.

Anyway many of you who were around back then will undoubtedly remember this letter. It was vicious, it was unfair, and it was taken out of context. Anyone who knows Lamar Heystek knows that this young man has no misogynist bone in his body. And anyone who questions his maturity on the Davis City Council has not been watching–if anything he has been too mature. I reprint it in its entirety so that people might have the full effect and not accuse me of distorting the position of the Saylors.

“Shared values? I don’t think so

Is it a brand-new sexist day in Davis? Stop reading Lamar Heystek ‘s campaign literature and read his own words in his weekly column in the UC Davis Aggie newspaper, www.californiaaggie.com (search: Lamar Heystek ).

Two choice quotes are: “Women like to be treated like dirt. The worse you treat them, the more they want you” (Jan. 24, 2006). And, ” I’d enjoy a strategically placed hickey. Hell, I’d even settle for a cigarette burn near my groin. I’ll take anything that could be construed as evidence of having ‘been’ with a girl” (Jan. 31, 2006).

Read his columns completely. These quotes are not more palatable in context and the entire body of work is short on wit and long on references to virginity and feminine products.

Lamar is a lecturer in linguistics at UC Davis. He should have a good grasp of the meaning and power of language, so don’t let him spin his writing as “just kidding.” Would you want to be taught and evaluated by a teacher who thought it was acceptable to write this in the student newspaper? I certainly don’t want my son and daughter to think this is the behavior for a role model.

More important now for Davis voters, would you like a City Councilman who displays such lack of judgment and maturity? I have been bringing home the Tuesday edition of The Aggie for months, marveling each week that a council candidate is so foolish as to write this unacceptable misogynistic drivel week after week. But he does. And he does it even as he asks voters to elect him because of his commitment to social justice. This man running for council says “Trust me. We have shared values.” I don’t think so.

I recommend that Lamar Heystek get a decade or two distant from his Aggie column before anyone consider him a viable candidate for council. This is not a comment about chronological age. We need to choose candidates with the emotional maturity, balance, perspective and experience to serve our whole community.

Julie Saylor”

And if people want to argue that this happened during the heat of the battle, that’s fine. You can make up your own mind about it or the people behind it. I’m just suggesting it is difficult for me to think of this man as “courteous” and “fair.” There are several other examples that I enumerate in the other blog post from April 11, 2007, but this is the most graphic and the most blatant example.

—Doug Paul Davis reporting

About The Author

David Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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352 thoughts on “Political Facelift For Don Saylor”

  1. Anonymous

    So I guess I will now hold you responsible for what Cecilia says or writes? Doesn’t that strike you as a little naive, not to mention incredibly sexist?

  2. Anonymous

    So I guess I will now hold you responsible for what Cecilia says or writes? Doesn’t that strike you as a little naive, not to mention incredibly sexist?

  3. Anonymous

    So I guess I will now hold you responsible for what Cecilia says or writes? Doesn’t that strike you as a little naive, not to mention incredibly sexist?

  4. Anonymous

    So I guess I will now hold you responsible for what Cecilia says or writes? Doesn’t that strike you as a little naive, not to mention incredibly sexist?

  5. Anonymous

    I read the Dunning column, and all I can say is that DPD sounds immature for even writing this blog: “Don this and Don that. Wah!” It’s puerile and not very sophisticated.

    When Bob Dunning retires from his column, I’m sure you can apply for his job.

  6. Anonymous

    I read the Dunning column, and all I can say is that DPD sounds immature for even writing this blog: “Don this and Don that. Wah!” It’s puerile and not very sophisticated.

    When Bob Dunning retires from his column, I’m sure you can apply for his job.

  7. Anonymous

    I read the Dunning column, and all I can say is that DPD sounds immature for even writing this blog: “Don this and Don that. Wah!” It’s puerile and not very sophisticated.

    When Bob Dunning retires from his column, I’m sure you can apply for his job.

  8. Anonymous

    I read the Dunning column, and all I can say is that DPD sounds immature for even writing this blog: “Don this and Don that. Wah!” It’s puerile and not very sophisticated.

    When Bob Dunning retires from his column, I’m sure you can apply for his job.

  9. Anonymous

    No, I think you miss the point.

    To suggest that a woman had her husband write a letter for her is incredibly sexist, demeaning and insulting regardless of what you think of the letter. Your argument is that the “end justifies the means.”

    Let’s try a little harder in future, ok?

  10. Anonymous

    No, I think you miss the point.

    To suggest that a woman had her husband write a letter for her is incredibly sexist, demeaning and insulting regardless of what you think of the letter. Your argument is that the “end justifies the means.”

    Let’s try a little harder in future, ok?

  11. Anonymous

    No, I think you miss the point.

    To suggest that a woman had her husband write a letter for her is incredibly sexist, demeaning and insulting regardless of what you think of the letter. Your argument is that the “end justifies the means.”

    Let’s try a little harder in future, ok?

  12. Anonymous

    No, I think you miss the point.

    To suggest that a woman had her husband write a letter for her is incredibly sexist, demeaning and insulting regardless of what you think of the letter. Your argument is that the “end justifies the means.”

    Let’s try a little harder in future, ok?

  13. Anonymous

    Let’s just be naive and think that Julie Saylor wrote that completely on her own without consulting Don. Don bears no responsibility for it. Give me a break.

  14. Anonymous

    Let’s just be naive and think that Julie Saylor wrote that completely on her own without consulting Don. Don bears no responsibility for it. Give me a break.

  15. Anonymous

    Let’s just be naive and think that Julie Saylor wrote that completely on her own without consulting Don. Don bears no responsibility for it. Give me a break.

  16. Anonymous

    Let’s just be naive and think that Julie Saylor wrote that completely on her own without consulting Don. Don bears no responsibility for it. Give me a break.

  17. Progressive Voice

    Are you kidding me, that attack was completely Don Saylor’s doing. And it was viscious and unfair. Instead of trying to turn this around on DPD, why not hold Saylor accountable for his actions?

  18. Progressive Voice

    Are you kidding me, that attack was completely Don Saylor’s doing. And it was viscious and unfair. Instead of trying to turn this around on DPD, why not hold Saylor accountable for his actions?

  19. Progressive Voice

    Are you kidding me, that attack was completely Don Saylor’s doing. And it was viscious and unfair. Instead of trying to turn this around on DPD, why not hold Saylor accountable for his actions?

  20. Progressive Voice

    Are you kidding me, that attack was completely Don Saylor’s doing. And it was viscious and unfair. Instead of trying to turn this around on DPD, why not hold Saylor accountable for his actions?

  21. Anonymous

    To Anonymous 8:27 am:

    This is how DPD writes all of his pieces: “There are many examples I could go into, but most of them I have heard either off the record or second hand.”

    Even with this disclaimer, he relies on these gripes and prejudices to cast the world in black and white. And he’s the knight in shining armor.

    Did DPD bother to contact Julie Saylor about the letter’s origination, or are we to take his (DPD’s) word, his infallible WORD, for it?

  22. Anonymous

    To Anonymous 8:27 am:

    This is how DPD writes all of his pieces: “There are many examples I could go into, but most of them I have heard either off the record or second hand.”

    Even with this disclaimer, he relies on these gripes and prejudices to cast the world in black and white. And he’s the knight in shining armor.

    Did DPD bother to contact Julie Saylor about the letter’s origination, or are we to take his (DPD’s) word, his infallible WORD, for it?

  23. Anonymous

    To Anonymous 8:27 am:

    This is how DPD writes all of his pieces: “There are many examples I could go into, but most of them I have heard either off the record or second hand.”

    Even with this disclaimer, he relies on these gripes and prejudices to cast the world in black and white. And he’s the knight in shining armor.

    Did DPD bother to contact Julie Saylor about the letter’s origination, or are we to take his (DPD’s) word, his infallible WORD, for it?

  24. Anonymous

    To Anonymous 8:27 am:

    This is how DPD writes all of his pieces: “There are many examples I could go into, but most of them I have heard either off the record or second hand.”

    Even with this disclaimer, he relies on these gripes and prejudices to cast the world in black and white. And he’s the knight in shining armor.

    Did DPD bother to contact Julie Saylor about the letter’s origination, or are we to take his (DPD’s) word, his infallible WORD, for it?

  25. Anonymous

    “Did DPD bother to contact Julie Saylor about the letter’s origination, or are we to take his (DPD’s) word, his infallible WORD, for it?”

    Did he need to? Again, you’re telling me Julie Saylor wrote a letter on a council race, where her husband is a sitting councilmember, her only letter to the editor, without the knowledge and consent of her husband? Are you married?

    You think this is sexism? You think Mike Syvanen would write such a letter without the knowledge or consent of Sue Greenwald?

    Give me a break.

    It’s amazing all of you (probably you are one person) are completely ignoring the substance of Julie’s letter and have focused on whether Don had anything to do with it and assume that’s somehow a point in question. Give me a break.

  26. Anonymous

    “Did DPD bother to contact Julie Saylor about the letter’s origination, or are we to take his (DPD’s) word, his infallible WORD, for it?”

    Did he need to? Again, you’re telling me Julie Saylor wrote a letter on a council race, where her husband is a sitting councilmember, her only letter to the editor, without the knowledge and consent of her husband? Are you married?

    You think this is sexism? You think Mike Syvanen would write such a letter without the knowledge or consent of Sue Greenwald?

    Give me a break.

    It’s amazing all of you (probably you are one person) are completely ignoring the substance of Julie’s letter and have focused on whether Don had anything to do with it and assume that’s somehow a point in question. Give me a break.

  27. Anonymous

    “Did DPD bother to contact Julie Saylor about the letter’s origination, or are we to take his (DPD’s) word, his infallible WORD, for it?”

    Did he need to? Again, you’re telling me Julie Saylor wrote a letter on a council race, where her husband is a sitting councilmember, her only letter to the editor, without the knowledge and consent of her husband? Are you married?

    You think this is sexism? You think Mike Syvanen would write such a letter without the knowledge or consent of Sue Greenwald?

    Give me a break.

    It’s amazing all of you (probably you are one person) are completely ignoring the substance of Julie’s letter and have focused on whether Don had anything to do with it and assume that’s somehow a point in question. Give me a break.

  28. Anonymous

    “Did DPD bother to contact Julie Saylor about the letter’s origination, or are we to take his (DPD’s) word, his infallible WORD, for it?”

    Did he need to? Again, you’re telling me Julie Saylor wrote a letter on a council race, where her husband is a sitting councilmember, her only letter to the editor, without the knowledge and consent of her husband? Are you married?

    You think this is sexism? You think Mike Syvanen would write such a letter without the knowledge or consent of Sue Greenwald?

    Give me a break.

    It’s amazing all of you (probably you are one person) are completely ignoring the substance of Julie’s letter and have focused on whether Don had anything to do with it and assume that’s somehow a point in question. Give me a break.

  29. Anonymous

    To Anon 8:42

    “…but I suspect that he (Don) had far more involvement than that.”

    Suspect and suspicion–that’s all this blog is about. And the anti-Don crowd seems to want to ignore the content of Ms. Saylor’s letter.

    I think the issue bigger than Don’s review of a letter would be if Lamar Heystek said or wrote those things. And if he did, then what was the context? Was he quoting someone to debunk them? Was he making a bad joke a la John Kerry?

    If Julie Saylor’s letter states things inaccurately, then that should be addressed. Otherwise, Lamar sounds flippant and disrespectful. And in light of that second option, what Don did or didn’t do seems a little less relevant.

  30. Anonymous

    To Anon 8:42

    “…but I suspect that he (Don) had far more involvement than that.”

    Suspect and suspicion–that’s all this blog is about. And the anti-Don crowd seems to want to ignore the content of Ms. Saylor’s letter.

    I think the issue bigger than Don’s review of a letter would be if Lamar Heystek said or wrote those things. And if he did, then what was the context? Was he quoting someone to debunk them? Was he making a bad joke a la John Kerry?

    If Julie Saylor’s letter states things inaccurately, then that should be addressed. Otherwise, Lamar sounds flippant and disrespectful. And in light of that second option, what Don did or didn’t do seems a little less relevant.

  31. Anonymous

    To Anon 8:42

    “…but I suspect that he (Don) had far more involvement than that.”

    Suspect and suspicion–that’s all this blog is about. And the anti-Don crowd seems to want to ignore the content of Ms. Saylor’s letter.

    I think the issue bigger than Don’s review of a letter would be if Lamar Heystek said or wrote those things. And if he did, then what was the context? Was he quoting someone to debunk them? Was he making a bad joke a la John Kerry?

    If Julie Saylor’s letter states things inaccurately, then that should be addressed. Otherwise, Lamar sounds flippant and disrespectful. And in light of that second option, what Don did or didn’t do seems a little less relevant.

  32. Anonymous

    To Anon 8:42

    “…but I suspect that he (Don) had far more involvement than that.”

    Suspect and suspicion–that’s all this blog is about. And the anti-Don crowd seems to want to ignore the content of Ms. Saylor’s letter.

    I think the issue bigger than Don’s review of a letter would be if Lamar Heystek said or wrote those things. And if he did, then what was the context? Was he quoting someone to debunk them? Was he making a bad joke a la John Kerry?

    If Julie Saylor’s letter states things inaccurately, then that should be addressed. Otherwise, Lamar sounds flippant and disrespectful. And in light of that second option, what Don did or didn’t do seems a little less relevant.

  33. PressurePoint

    I think people are entitled to try to change themselves for the better w/o critique. Intelligent people presumably continue to learn as they age, which is why you don’t beat them over the head with their old selves when they’ve worked to become better. I don’t know if that applies to Mr. Saylor but if it does, it’s unbecoming to make his transformation to a more balanced person an issue.

    For me the only important question about any of the City Council incumbants is, what is their position on the future of Measure J, and will they make a promise to maintain it’s integrity as currently written. That is a litmus test you can take to the bank, since lame ducks are the perfect target for developers laying in the weeds. And you just know that particular humanoid sub-species is ubiquitous around Davis.

  34. PressurePoint

    I think people are entitled to try to change themselves for the better w/o critique. Intelligent people presumably continue to learn as they age, which is why you don’t beat them over the head with their old selves when they’ve worked to become better. I don’t know if that applies to Mr. Saylor but if it does, it’s unbecoming to make his transformation to a more balanced person an issue.

    For me the only important question about any of the City Council incumbants is, what is their position on the future of Measure J, and will they make a promise to maintain it’s integrity as currently written. That is a litmus test you can take to the bank, since lame ducks are the perfect target for developers laying in the weeds. And you just know that particular humanoid sub-species is ubiquitous around Davis.

  35. PressurePoint

    I think people are entitled to try to change themselves for the better w/o critique. Intelligent people presumably continue to learn as they age, which is why you don’t beat them over the head with their old selves when they’ve worked to become better. I don’t know if that applies to Mr. Saylor but if it does, it’s unbecoming to make his transformation to a more balanced person an issue.

    For me the only important question about any of the City Council incumbants is, what is their position on the future of Measure J, and will they make a promise to maintain it’s integrity as currently written. That is a litmus test you can take to the bank, since lame ducks are the perfect target for developers laying in the weeds. And you just know that particular humanoid sub-species is ubiquitous around Davis.

  36. PressurePoint

    I think people are entitled to try to change themselves for the better w/o critique. Intelligent people presumably continue to learn as they age, which is why you don’t beat them over the head with their old selves when they’ve worked to become better. I don’t know if that applies to Mr. Saylor but if it does, it’s unbecoming to make his transformation to a more balanced person an issue.

    For me the only important question about any of the City Council incumbants is, what is their position on the future of Measure J, and will they make a promise to maintain it’s integrity as currently written. That is a litmus test you can take to the bank, since lame ducks are the perfect target for developers laying in the weeds. And you just know that particular humanoid sub-species is ubiquitous around Davis.

  37. DHS Parent

    First, I think that the objection here is that Sunday’s blog seems to be coming from a personal distaste for Don Saylor.

    I have enjoyed the Vanguard for its generally fair and objective look into Davis politics, schools, and whatnot. DPD has done a wonderful job of providing alternate views outside of the mainstream establishment(i.e. Enterprise). I thank him for all of his energy and effort.

    I also have appreciated that his reporting has, at least to me, seemed to be generally fair and objective. While of course leaning towards the ‘left’, DPD still has been balanced and reasonable in his reporting.

    This morning’s blog didn’t really read that way to me. It struck me as nothing more than an attack on Saylor that, warranted or not, detracts from the overall quality of this website.

    I think it would have been better if DPD, as he initially stated, would not have written about this. Should have left it alone and let it lie. Now it’s generating even more attention than it originally would have (at least on here).

  38. DHS Parent

    First, I think that the objection here is that Sunday’s blog seems to be coming from a personal distaste for Don Saylor.

    I have enjoyed the Vanguard for its generally fair and objective look into Davis politics, schools, and whatnot. DPD has done a wonderful job of providing alternate views outside of the mainstream establishment(i.e. Enterprise). I thank him for all of his energy and effort.

    I also have appreciated that his reporting has, at least to me, seemed to be generally fair and objective. While of course leaning towards the ‘left’, DPD still has been balanced and reasonable in his reporting.

    This morning’s blog didn’t really read that way to me. It struck me as nothing more than an attack on Saylor that, warranted or not, detracts from the overall quality of this website.

    I think it would have been better if DPD, as he initially stated, would not have written about this. Should have left it alone and let it lie. Now it’s generating even more attention than it originally would have (at least on here).

  39. DHS Parent

    First, I think that the objection here is that Sunday’s blog seems to be coming from a personal distaste for Don Saylor.

    I have enjoyed the Vanguard for its generally fair and objective look into Davis politics, schools, and whatnot. DPD has done a wonderful job of providing alternate views outside of the mainstream establishment(i.e. Enterprise). I thank him for all of his energy and effort.

    I also have appreciated that his reporting has, at least to me, seemed to be generally fair and objective. While of course leaning towards the ‘left’, DPD still has been balanced and reasonable in his reporting.

    This morning’s blog didn’t really read that way to me. It struck me as nothing more than an attack on Saylor that, warranted or not, detracts from the overall quality of this website.

    I think it would have been better if DPD, as he initially stated, would not have written about this. Should have left it alone and let it lie. Now it’s generating even more attention than it originally would have (at least on here).

  40. DHS Parent

    First, I think that the objection here is that Sunday’s blog seems to be coming from a personal distaste for Don Saylor.

    I have enjoyed the Vanguard for its generally fair and objective look into Davis politics, schools, and whatnot. DPD has done a wonderful job of providing alternate views outside of the mainstream establishment(i.e. Enterprise). I thank him for all of his energy and effort.

    I also have appreciated that his reporting has, at least to me, seemed to be generally fair and objective. While of course leaning towards the ‘left’, DPD still has been balanced and reasonable in his reporting.

    This morning’s blog didn’t really read that way to me. It struck me as nothing more than an attack on Saylor that, warranted or not, detracts from the overall quality of this website.

    I think it would have been better if DPD, as he initially stated, would not have written about this. Should have left it alone and let it lie. Now it’s generating even more attention than it originally would have (at least on here).

  41. fool for saylor no more

    This is all too funny for a good Sunday morning. I agree that the first 7 or so postings are the same person. Take a breather and back off the keyboard anonymous.

    The fact is that you have not been able to refute anything at all.

    Saylor was known to get in people’s faces and issue threats. He did this often at farmers market and other places. He even did this to a former elected as DPD mentioned.

    DPD was not sexist to say that Saylor had something to do with the letter writing by his wife. All that says is simply that Saylor is the type to stoop to such levels.

    The real issues are land use and not civility and a monotone voice in the council chambers.

    The bottom line is that we will not be fooled again. Of course I never was.

  42. fool for saylor no more

    This is all too funny for a good Sunday morning. I agree that the first 7 or so postings are the same person. Take a breather and back off the keyboard anonymous.

    The fact is that you have not been able to refute anything at all.

    Saylor was known to get in people’s faces and issue threats. He did this often at farmers market and other places. He even did this to a former elected as DPD mentioned.

    DPD was not sexist to say that Saylor had something to do with the letter writing by his wife. All that says is simply that Saylor is the type to stoop to such levels.

    The real issues are land use and not civility and a monotone voice in the council chambers.

    The bottom line is that we will not be fooled again. Of course I never was.

  43. fool for saylor no more

    This is all too funny for a good Sunday morning. I agree that the first 7 or so postings are the same person. Take a breather and back off the keyboard anonymous.

    The fact is that you have not been able to refute anything at all.

    Saylor was known to get in people’s faces and issue threats. He did this often at farmers market and other places. He even did this to a former elected as DPD mentioned.

    DPD was not sexist to say that Saylor had something to do with the letter writing by his wife. All that says is simply that Saylor is the type to stoop to such levels.

    The real issues are land use and not civility and a monotone voice in the council chambers.

    The bottom line is that we will not be fooled again. Of course I never was.

  44. fool for saylor no more

    This is all too funny for a good Sunday morning. I agree that the first 7 or so postings are the same person. Take a breather and back off the keyboard anonymous.

    The fact is that you have not been able to refute anything at all.

    Saylor was known to get in people’s faces and issue threats. He did this often at farmers market and other places. He even did this to a former elected as DPD mentioned.

    DPD was not sexist to say that Saylor had something to do with the letter writing by his wife. All that says is simply that Saylor is the type to stoop to such levels.

    The real issues are land use and not civility and a monotone voice in the council chambers.

    The bottom line is that we will not be fooled again. Of course I never was.

  45. Anonymous

    campaign watcher: I believe that at least the first 7 anonymous posts come from the same person.

    Apparently only two? Never mind, the attitude is the same. We have, in order of appearance: naive, sexist, slam, Cecilia’s lips, immature, puerile, “not very sophisticated”, sexist (redux), demeaning, insulting, and finally “give me a break”.

    Smells kinda peevish, prick-ly. Nothin’ like being a little crabby first thing in the morning to get the blood moving.

  46. Anonymous

    campaign watcher: I believe that at least the first 7 anonymous posts come from the same person.

    Apparently only two? Never mind, the attitude is the same. We have, in order of appearance: naive, sexist, slam, Cecilia’s lips, immature, puerile, “not very sophisticated”, sexist (redux), demeaning, insulting, and finally “give me a break”.

    Smells kinda peevish, prick-ly. Nothin’ like being a little crabby first thing in the morning to get the blood moving.

  47. Anonymous

    campaign watcher: I believe that at least the first 7 anonymous posts come from the same person.

    Apparently only two? Never mind, the attitude is the same. We have, in order of appearance: naive, sexist, slam, Cecilia’s lips, immature, puerile, “not very sophisticated”, sexist (redux), demeaning, insulting, and finally “give me a break”.

    Smells kinda peevish, prick-ly. Nothin’ like being a little crabby first thing in the morning to get the blood moving.

  48. Anonymous

    campaign watcher: I believe that at least the first 7 anonymous posts come from the same person.

    Apparently only two? Never mind, the attitude is the same. We have, in order of appearance: naive, sexist, slam, Cecilia’s lips, immature, puerile, “not very sophisticated”, sexist (redux), demeaning, insulting, and finally “give me a break”.

    Smells kinda peevish, prick-ly. Nothin’ like being a little crabby first thing in the morning to get the blood moving.

  49. campaign watcher

    Many awful things happened during that last city council election. Many things could be excused as the result of being in the thick of things, but these instances are more often than not followed up by an apology. DPD cites one instance that may have been more calculated. It takes some thought to write such a letter that had no other purpose than to defame another. If Julie Saylor had written it on her own without even mentioning it to the Don or his campaign committee (something that I find hard to believe), Don did nothing in response – no public apology that I’m aware of.

    I think that Don has been working very hard to run a different kind of campaign than the last one. Some of the more downright meanspirited people that attached themselves to his campaign last time do not seem to be around. I do see Don making himself available for people to talk to him and him responding to peoples concerns. I think that if he continues to do this, he will win. But I do not think that he is an example of “civility” in public life. I do think that he is working on it, just like the rest of us.

  50. campaign watcher

    Many awful things happened during that last city council election. Many things could be excused as the result of being in the thick of things, but these instances are more often than not followed up by an apology. DPD cites one instance that may have been more calculated. It takes some thought to write such a letter that had no other purpose than to defame another. If Julie Saylor had written it on her own without even mentioning it to the Don or his campaign committee (something that I find hard to believe), Don did nothing in response – no public apology that I’m aware of.

    I think that Don has been working very hard to run a different kind of campaign than the last one. Some of the more downright meanspirited people that attached themselves to his campaign last time do not seem to be around. I do see Don making himself available for people to talk to him and him responding to peoples concerns. I think that if he continues to do this, he will win. But I do not think that he is an example of “civility” in public life. I do think that he is working on it, just like the rest of us.

  51. campaign watcher

    Many awful things happened during that last city council election. Many things could be excused as the result of being in the thick of things, but these instances are more often than not followed up by an apology. DPD cites one instance that may have been more calculated. It takes some thought to write such a letter that had no other purpose than to defame another. If Julie Saylor had written it on her own without even mentioning it to the Don or his campaign committee (something that I find hard to believe), Don did nothing in response – no public apology that I’m aware of.

    I think that Don has been working very hard to run a different kind of campaign than the last one. Some of the more downright meanspirited people that attached themselves to his campaign last time do not seem to be around. I do see Don making himself available for people to talk to him and him responding to peoples concerns. I think that if he continues to do this, he will win. But I do not think that he is an example of “civility” in public life. I do think that he is working on it, just like the rest of us.

  52. campaign watcher

    Many awful things happened during that last city council election. Many things could be excused as the result of being in the thick of things, but these instances are more often than not followed up by an apology. DPD cites one instance that may have been more calculated. It takes some thought to write such a letter that had no other purpose than to defame another. If Julie Saylor had written it on her own without even mentioning it to the Don or his campaign committee (something that I find hard to believe), Don did nothing in response – no public apology that I’m aware of.

    I think that Don has been working very hard to run a different kind of campaign than the last one. Some of the more downright meanspirited people that attached themselves to his campaign last time do not seem to be around. I do see Don making himself available for people to talk to him and him responding to peoples concerns. I think that if he continues to do this, he will win. But I do not think that he is an example of “civility” in public life. I do think that he is working on it, just like the rest of us.

  53. informed voter

    So if George Bush starts having coffee with people and talking in a boring voice and saying that we all need to be civil we will believe him? Even though his decisions have us in the mess we are currently in?

    I think the voters are smarter. At least I hope they are.

  54. informed voter

    So if George Bush starts having coffee with people and talking in a boring voice and saying that we all need to be civil we will believe him? Even though his decisions have us in the mess we are currently in?

    I think the voters are smarter. At least I hope they are.

  55. informed voter

    So if George Bush starts having coffee with people and talking in a boring voice and saying that we all need to be civil we will believe him? Even though his decisions have us in the mess we are currently in?

    I think the voters are smarter. At least I hope they are.

  56. informed voter

    So if George Bush starts having coffee with people and talking in a boring voice and saying that we all need to be civil we will believe him? Even though his decisions have us in the mess we are currently in?

    I think the voters are smarter. At least I hope they are.

  57. drinking my suday morning coffee

    Campaign Watcher I think you just made the comparison. The other poster asked the question. Was that a Freudian slip of the keyboard?

  58. drinking my suday morning coff

    Campaign Watcher I think you just made the comparison. The other poster asked the question. Was that a Freudian slip of the keyboard?

  59. drinking my suday morning coff

    Campaign Watcher I think you just made the comparison. The other poster asked the question. Was that a Freudian slip of the keyboard?

  60. drinking my suday morning coff

    Campaign Watcher I think you just made the comparison. The other poster asked the question. Was that a Freudian slip of the keyboard?

  61. don shor

    So, should we rate the current candidates by their temperaments? I don’t think that’s very productive. There have been problems with the public actions and attitudes of others, including some who are favorites on this blog.
    Perhaps it would be better to focus on the issues.

  62. don shor

    So, should we rate the current candidates by their temperaments? I don’t think that’s very productive. There have been problems with the public actions and attitudes of others, including some who are favorites on this blog.
    Perhaps it would be better to focus on the issues.

  63. don shor

    So, should we rate the current candidates by their temperaments? I don’t think that’s very productive. There have been problems with the public actions and attitudes of others, including some who are favorites on this blog.
    Perhaps it would be better to focus on the issues.

  64. don shor

    So, should we rate the current candidates by their temperaments? I don’t think that’s very productive. There have been problems with the public actions and attitudes of others, including some who are favorites on this blog.
    Perhaps it would be better to focus on the issues.

  65. Anonymous

    “Perhaps it would be better to focus on the issues.”
    –Don Shor

    Right on, Don. Maybe not “better,” but more productive. Or, dare I write it, “progressive”?

  66. Anonymous

    “Perhaps it would be better to focus on the issues.”
    –Don Shor

    Right on, Don. Maybe not “better,” but more productive. Or, dare I write it, “progressive”?

  67. Anonymous

    “Perhaps it would be better to focus on the issues.”
    –Don Shor

    Right on, Don. Maybe not “better,” but more productive. Or, dare I write it, “progressive”?

  68. Anonymous

    “Perhaps it would be better to focus on the issues.”
    –Don Shor

    Right on, Don. Maybe not “better,” but more productive. Or, dare I write it, “progressive”?

  69. Anonymous

    It should also be noted that to this date, Don has never apologized to Lamar for that letter. If he had no knowledge of it as some the previous anonymous’ have claimed, then he could have apologized to Lamar for it. He hasn’t.

  70. james schwab

    I find it funny that people still complain that this blog is somehow suppose to be completely unbiased or that its unfair. It’s a blog folks, its suppose to opinionated, biased, and put forward stories and issues from a certain perspective. If you don’t like it, start your own blog!

    Retort with facts or stories David has missed but don’t complain about bias, never was this blog supposed to be unbiased.

  71. Anonymous

    It should also be noted that to this date, Don has never apologized to Lamar for that letter. If he had no knowledge of it as some the previous anonymous’ have claimed, then he could have apologized to Lamar for it. He hasn’t.

  72. james schwab

    I find it funny that people still complain that this blog is somehow suppose to be completely unbiased or that its unfair. It’s a blog folks, its suppose to opinionated, biased, and put forward stories and issues from a certain perspective. If you don’t like it, start your own blog!

    Retort with facts or stories David has missed but don’t complain about bias, never was this blog supposed to be unbiased.

  73. Anonymous

    It should also be noted that to this date, Don has never apologized to Lamar for that letter. If he had no knowledge of it as some the previous anonymous’ have claimed, then he could have apologized to Lamar for it. He hasn’t.

  74. james schwab

    I find it funny that people still complain that this blog is somehow suppose to be completely unbiased or that its unfair. It’s a blog folks, its suppose to opinionated, biased, and put forward stories and issues from a certain perspective. If you don’t like it, start your own blog!

    Retort with facts or stories David has missed but don’t complain about bias, never was this blog supposed to be unbiased.

  75. Anonymous

    It should also be noted that to this date, Don has never apologized to Lamar for that letter. If he had no knowledge of it as some the previous anonymous’ have claimed, then he could have apologized to Lamar for it. He hasn’t.

  76. james schwab

    I find it funny that people still complain that this blog is somehow suppose to be completely unbiased or that its unfair. It’s a blog folks, its suppose to opinionated, biased, and put forward stories and issues from a certain perspective. If you don’t like it, start your own blog!

    Retort with facts or stories David has missed but don’t complain about bias, never was this blog supposed to be unbiased.

  77. Anonymous

    I find it very interesting–many people have attacked David for this blog post. Not one person has made an argument that it was okay for Julie to write the letter or that the letter was accurate. I find that VERY telling. Complain about David all you want, but he nailed this one.

  78. Anonymous

    I find it very interesting–many people have attacked David for this blog post. Not one person has made an argument that it was okay for Julie to write the letter or that the letter was accurate. I find that VERY telling. Complain about David all you want, but he nailed this one.

  79. Anonymous

    I find it very interesting–many people have attacked David for this blog post. Not one person has made an argument that it was okay for Julie to write the letter or that the letter was accurate. I find that VERY telling. Complain about David all you want, but he nailed this one.

  80. Anonymous

    I find it very interesting–many people have attacked David for this blog post. Not one person has made an argument that it was okay for Julie to write the letter or that the letter was accurate. I find that VERY telling. Complain about David all you want, but he nailed this one.

  81. Anonymous

    No problem here with bias.

    The problem I have is the outrageous, unsupported commentary thinly veiled as objectivity. For example, all the hand wringing about removing himself from covering the city council and then writing an apologia for wanting to cover it after all.

    If you’re going to write commentary, then write it. If you’re pretending to be a journalist, do a better job at pretending.

    Maybe take a class from Dunning.

  82. Anonymous

    No problem here with bias.

    The problem I have is the outrageous, unsupported commentary thinly veiled as objectivity. For example, all the hand wringing about removing himself from covering the city council and then writing an apologia for wanting to cover it after all.

    If you’re going to write commentary, then write it. If you’re pretending to be a journalist, do a better job at pretending.

    Maybe take a class from Dunning.

  83. Anonymous

    No problem here with bias.

    The problem I have is the outrageous, unsupported commentary thinly veiled as objectivity. For example, all the hand wringing about removing himself from covering the city council and then writing an apologia for wanting to cover it after all.

    If you’re going to write commentary, then write it. If you’re pretending to be a journalist, do a better job at pretending.

    Maybe take a class from Dunning.

  84. Anonymous

    No problem here with bias.

    The problem I have is the outrageous, unsupported commentary thinly veiled as objectivity. For example, all the hand wringing about removing himself from covering the city council and then writing an apologia for wanting to cover it after all.

    If you’re going to write commentary, then write it. If you’re pretending to be a journalist, do a better job at pretending.

    Maybe take a class from Dunning.

  85. Anonymous

    This last post and one from James both raised valid points. The problem is that David wants it both ways. He wants to act like a journalist have the time and a pundit the other half. Make up your mind one way or the other but don’t pretend to be “covering” the council race on one hand and teeing up your wife’s opponents on the other.

    To the person who said “not one person has made the argument that it was ok for Julie to write the letter or that the letter was accurate.” The reason for that is quite simple. The blog is about DON SAYLOR. We have no evidence that he wrote the letter. If the blog had been about JULIE SAYLOR then we could have turned to the letter and examined it on its own merits. Instead we’re treated to the usual conjecture that accompanies partisans of every stripe, imputing wrong doing and establishing conclusions divorced from factual premises. I suggest that some of you might be better served if you learned more about what’s called the “ladder of inference”, a process of thinking that so many of you, along with this blog, subscribe to.

    Thanks!

  86. Anonymous

    This last post and one from James both raised valid points. The problem is that David wants it both ways. He wants to act like a journalist have the time and a pundit the other half. Make up your mind one way or the other but don’t pretend to be “covering” the council race on one hand and teeing up your wife’s opponents on the other.

    To the person who said “not one person has made the argument that it was ok for Julie to write the letter or that the letter was accurate.” The reason for that is quite simple. The blog is about DON SAYLOR. We have no evidence that he wrote the letter. If the blog had been about JULIE SAYLOR then we could have turned to the letter and examined it on its own merits. Instead we’re treated to the usual conjecture that accompanies partisans of every stripe, imputing wrong doing and establishing conclusions divorced from factual premises. I suggest that some of you might be better served if you learned more about what’s called the “ladder of inference”, a process of thinking that so many of you, along with this blog, subscribe to.

    Thanks!

  87. Anonymous

    This last post and one from James both raised valid points. The problem is that David wants it both ways. He wants to act like a journalist have the time and a pundit the other half. Make up your mind one way or the other but don’t pretend to be “covering” the council race on one hand and teeing up your wife’s opponents on the other.

    To the person who said “not one person has made the argument that it was ok for Julie to write the letter or that the letter was accurate.” The reason for that is quite simple. The blog is about DON SAYLOR. We have no evidence that he wrote the letter. If the blog had been about JULIE SAYLOR then we could have turned to the letter and examined it on its own merits. Instead we’re treated to the usual conjecture that accompanies partisans of every stripe, imputing wrong doing and establishing conclusions divorced from factual premises. I suggest that some of you might be better served if you learned more about what’s called the “ladder of inference”, a process of thinking that so many of you, along with this blog, subscribe to.

    Thanks!

  88. Anonymous

    This last post and one from James both raised valid points. The problem is that David wants it both ways. He wants to act like a journalist have the time and a pundit the other half. Make up your mind one way or the other but don’t pretend to be “covering” the council race on one hand and teeing up your wife’s opponents on the other.

    To the person who said “not one person has made the argument that it was ok for Julie to write the letter or that the letter was accurate.” The reason for that is quite simple. The blog is about DON SAYLOR. We have no evidence that he wrote the letter. If the blog had been about JULIE SAYLOR then we could have turned to the letter and examined it on its own merits. Instead we’re treated to the usual conjecture that accompanies partisans of every stripe, imputing wrong doing and establishing conclusions divorced from factual premises. I suggest that some of you might be better served if you learned more about what’s called the “ladder of inference”, a process of thinking that so many of you, along with this blog, subscribe to.

    Thanks!

  89. james schwab

    I don’t think its a problem that David mixes news with opinion. I like David’s perspective, and the issues he raises and the opinions he writes. Its his blog, he can write what he wants, how he wants. The wonderful thing about it all is that this blog is maintained by David’s hard work and drive and nothing else. So if someone wants to start a blog and counter what David’s saying they can invest some hard work and start there own. That’s the beauty of blogs.

    But criticizing David for being opinionated or unibased or mixing fact and opinion is a waste of time and doesn’t attack the argument or the issue. One of the great rules of debate is to attack the argument not the arguer.

  90. james schwab

    I don’t think its a problem that David mixes news with opinion. I like David’s perspective, and the issues he raises and the opinions he writes. Its his blog, he can write what he wants, how he wants. The wonderful thing about it all is that this blog is maintained by David’s hard work and drive and nothing else. So if someone wants to start a blog and counter what David’s saying they can invest some hard work and start there own. That’s the beauty of blogs.

    But criticizing David for being opinionated or unibased or mixing fact and opinion is a waste of time and doesn’t attack the argument or the issue. One of the great rules of debate is to attack the argument not the arguer.

  91. james schwab

    I don’t think its a problem that David mixes news with opinion. I like David’s perspective, and the issues he raises and the opinions he writes. Its his blog, he can write what he wants, how he wants. The wonderful thing about it all is that this blog is maintained by David’s hard work and drive and nothing else. So if someone wants to start a blog and counter what David’s saying they can invest some hard work and start there own. That’s the beauty of blogs.

    But criticizing David for being opinionated or unibased or mixing fact and opinion is a waste of time and doesn’t attack the argument or the issue. One of the great rules of debate is to attack the argument not the arguer.

  92. james schwab

    I don’t think its a problem that David mixes news with opinion. I like David’s perspective, and the issues he raises and the opinions he writes. Its his blog, he can write what he wants, how he wants. The wonderful thing about it all is that this blog is maintained by David’s hard work and drive and nothing else. So if someone wants to start a blog and counter what David’s saying they can invest some hard work and start there own. That’s the beauty of blogs.

    But criticizing David for being opinionated or unibased or mixing fact and opinion is a waste of time and doesn’t attack the argument or the issue. One of the great rules of debate is to attack the argument not the arguer.

  93. Anonymous

    You must be a new commer to the blog or not pay attention because DPD has never proclaimed to be a journalist. As a matter of fact he has gone out of the way to say that he is not a journalist.

    Keep up the good work DPD. Keep pulling the curtain back on Oz.

  94. Anonymous

    You must be a new commer to the blog or not pay attention because DPD has never proclaimed to be a journalist. As a matter of fact he has gone out of the way to say that he is not a journalist.

    Keep up the good work DPD. Keep pulling the curtain back on Oz.

  95. Anonymous

    You must be a new commer to the blog or not pay attention because DPD has never proclaimed to be a journalist. As a matter of fact he has gone out of the way to say that he is not a journalist.

    Keep up the good work DPD. Keep pulling the curtain back on Oz.

  96. Anonymous

    You must be a new commer to the blog or not pay attention because DPD has never proclaimed to be a journalist. As a matter of fact he has gone out of the way to say that he is not a journalist.

    Keep up the good work DPD. Keep pulling the curtain back on Oz.

  97. Anonymous

    Did Julie ever apologize to Lamar? Did anyone ask Don about it or did he claim spousal priviledge.

    Personally I like Don’s policies but don’t think he will get my vote. You can say the same about Sue but for the opposite reason’s. In her case I don’t like her policies and she won’t get my vote either. I just find both of them personally flawed in such ways that I won’t vote for either. You can also say the same about some of the other candidates. In California city council elections are training grounds for higher office. In my opinion the only person who has shown the intelligence, demeanor and policies that I can consistantly support is Lamar.

  98. Anonymous

    Did Julie ever apologize to Lamar? Did anyone ask Don about it or did he claim spousal priviledge.

    Personally I like Don’s policies but don’t think he will get my vote. You can say the same about Sue but for the opposite reason’s. In her case I don’t like her policies and she won’t get my vote either. I just find both of them personally flawed in such ways that I won’t vote for either. You can also say the same about some of the other candidates. In California city council elections are training grounds for higher office. In my opinion the only person who has shown the intelligence, demeanor and policies that I can consistantly support is Lamar.

  99. Anonymous

    Did Julie ever apologize to Lamar? Did anyone ask Don about it or did he claim spousal priviledge.

    Personally I like Don’s policies but don’t think he will get my vote. You can say the same about Sue but for the opposite reason’s. In her case I don’t like her policies and she won’t get my vote either. I just find both of them personally flawed in such ways that I won’t vote for either. You can also say the same about some of the other candidates. In California city council elections are training grounds for higher office. In my opinion the only person who has shown the intelligence, demeanor and policies that I can consistantly support is Lamar.

  100. Anonymous

    Did Julie ever apologize to Lamar? Did anyone ask Don about it or did he claim spousal priviledge.

    Personally I like Don’s policies but don’t think he will get my vote. You can say the same about Sue but for the opposite reason’s. In her case I don’t like her policies and she won’t get my vote either. I just find both of them personally flawed in such ways that I won’t vote for either. You can also say the same about some of the other candidates. In California city council elections are training grounds for higher office. In my opinion the only person who has shown the intelligence, demeanor and policies that I can consistantly support is Lamar.

  101. Anonymous

    Did Lamar really write that terrible stuff about women in the California Aggie? That seems to be the crux of the issue DPD raised in today’s blog.
    I tried to do a search as Julie suggested of the California Aggie website, but it didn’t register.
    The only option now is for someone to look into the California Aggie morge.

  102. Anonymous

    Did Lamar really write that terrible stuff about women in the California Aggie? That seems to be the crux of the issue DPD raised in today’s blog.
    I tried to do a search as Julie suggested of the California Aggie website, but it didn’t register.
    The only option now is for someone to look into the California Aggie morge.

  103. Anonymous

    Did Lamar really write that terrible stuff about women in the California Aggie? That seems to be the crux of the issue DPD raised in today’s blog.
    I tried to do a search as Julie suggested of the California Aggie website, but it didn’t register.
    The only option now is for someone to look into the California Aggie morge.

  104. Anonymous

    Did Lamar really write that terrible stuff about women in the California Aggie? That seems to be the crux of the issue DPD raised in today’s blog.
    I tried to do a search as Julie suggested of the California Aggie website, but it didn’t register.
    The only option now is for someone to look into the California Aggie morge.

  105. Anonymous

    James ol’ buddy…don’t you think it’s a little ironic to be defending David against attack (“..attack the argument – not the arguer.”)when his blog entry that started this trail of comments was nothing but a personal attack on Saylor? Come on! I can buy what you’re saying but the context ought to make you a little squeamish!

  106. Anonymous

    James ol’ buddy…don’t you think it’s a little ironic to be defending David against attack (“..attack the argument – not the arguer.”)when his blog entry that started this trail of comments was nothing but a personal attack on Saylor? Come on! I can buy what you’re saying but the context ought to make you a little squeamish!

  107. Anonymous

    James ol’ buddy…don’t you think it’s a little ironic to be defending David against attack (“..attack the argument – not the arguer.”)when his blog entry that started this trail of comments was nothing but a personal attack on Saylor? Come on! I can buy what you’re saying but the context ought to make you a little squeamish!

  108. Anonymous

    James ol’ buddy…don’t you think it’s a little ironic to be defending David against attack (“..attack the argument – not the arguer.”)when his blog entry that started this trail of comments was nothing but a personal attack on Saylor? Come on! I can buy what you’re saying but the context ought to make you a little squeamish!

  109. Anonymous

    The text of the letter that bore Julie Saylor’s name actually appeared in personal e-mails under her husband’s name. He had been conducting a smear campaign among political circles before the letter appeared in print. The letter to the editor was his brainchild, indeed.

  110. Anonymous

    The text of the letter that bore Julie Saylor’s name actually appeared in personal e-mails under her husband’s name. He had been conducting a smear campaign among political circles before the letter appeared in print. The letter to the editor was his brainchild, indeed.

  111. Anonymous

    The text of the letter that bore Julie Saylor’s name actually appeared in personal e-mails under her husband’s name. He had been conducting a smear campaign among political circles before the letter appeared in print. The letter to the editor was his brainchild, indeed.

  112. Anonymous

    The text of the letter that bore Julie Saylor’s name actually appeared in personal e-mails under her husband’s name. He had been conducting a smear campaign among political circles before the letter appeared in print. The letter to the editor was his brainchild, indeed.

  113. I remember

    anony 3:37’s statements are FACTUAL. Don Saylor’s emails around town PREDATING Julie Saylor’s letter to the editor consisted of almost exactly the same attacks and wording. It is unlikely that anyone still has Don’s emails in their inbox file from several years ago but if they do, please post some of them.

  114. I remember

    anony 3:37’s statements are FACTUAL. Don Saylor’s emails around town PREDATING Julie Saylor’s letter to the editor consisted of almost exactly the same attacks and wording. It is unlikely that anyone still has Don’s emails in their inbox file from several years ago but if they do, please post some of them.

  115. I remember

    anony 3:37’s statements are FACTUAL. Don Saylor’s emails around town PREDATING Julie Saylor’s letter to the editor consisted of almost exactly the same attacks and wording. It is unlikely that anyone still has Don’s emails in their inbox file from several years ago but if they do, please post some of them.

  116. I remember

    anony 3:37’s statements are FACTUAL. Don Saylor’s emails around town PREDATING Julie Saylor’s letter to the editor consisted of almost exactly the same attacks and wording. It is unlikely that anyone still has Don’s emails in their inbox file from several years ago but if they do, please post some of them.

  117. more food for thought

    Let us also not forget Don Saylor’s involvement in statements printed in the Pro-Target campaign literature that were then publicly disclaimed by the government agency that was handling the environmental/toxicity issues surrounding the superfund cleanup site. His Enterprise OP-ED piece during the Covell Village campaign was also replete with factual “errors” concerning State growth regs.. Don Saylor must run for reelection on his public record; his best hope is voter political amnesia.

  118. more food for thought

    Let us also not forget Don Saylor’s involvement in statements printed in the Pro-Target campaign literature that were then publicly disclaimed by the government agency that was handling the environmental/toxicity issues surrounding the superfund cleanup site. His Enterprise OP-ED piece during the Covell Village campaign was also replete with factual “errors” concerning State growth regs.. Don Saylor must run for reelection on his public record; his best hope is voter political amnesia.

  119. more food for thought

    Let us also not forget Don Saylor’s involvement in statements printed in the Pro-Target campaign literature that were then publicly disclaimed by the government agency that was handling the environmental/toxicity issues surrounding the superfund cleanup site. His Enterprise OP-ED piece during the Covell Village campaign was also replete with factual “errors” concerning State growth regs.. Don Saylor must run for reelection on his public record; his best hope is voter political amnesia.

  120. more food for thought

    Let us also not forget Don Saylor’s involvement in statements printed in the Pro-Target campaign literature that were then publicly disclaimed by the government agency that was handling the environmental/toxicity issues surrounding the superfund cleanup site. His Enterprise OP-ED piece during the Covell Village campaign was also replete with factual “errors” concerning State growth regs.. Don Saylor must run for reelection on his public record; his best hope is voter political amnesia.

  121. Anonymous

    WOW, this is GREAT.
    I agree that DPD is a not a journalist, does not claim be one and probably never wil be a good one. Yes, he could take a lesson from Bob Dunning.
    David Greenwald should either run for council or admit he hopes his labor rep wife will win so he can manipulate behind the scene.
    Yes, I remember reading the article in the aggie where “ole” lamar made those “general comments”. He meant every word of it. Lamar is clueless.
    Vote for Saylor and Sue Greenwald for City Council and don’t allow dpd to run the city of Davis.

  122. Anonymous

    WOW, this is GREAT.
    I agree that DPD is a not a journalist, does not claim be one and probably never wil be a good one. Yes, he could take a lesson from Bob Dunning.
    David Greenwald should either run for council or admit he hopes his labor rep wife will win so he can manipulate behind the scene.
    Yes, I remember reading the article in the aggie where “ole” lamar made those “general comments”. He meant every word of it. Lamar is clueless.
    Vote for Saylor and Sue Greenwald for City Council and don’t allow dpd to run the city of Davis.

  123. Anonymous

    WOW, this is GREAT.
    I agree that DPD is a not a journalist, does not claim be one and probably never wil be a good one. Yes, he could take a lesson from Bob Dunning.
    David Greenwald should either run for council or admit he hopes his labor rep wife will win so he can manipulate behind the scene.
    Yes, I remember reading the article in the aggie where “ole” lamar made those “general comments”. He meant every word of it. Lamar is clueless.
    Vote for Saylor and Sue Greenwald for City Council and don’t allow dpd to run the city of Davis.

  124. Anonymous

    WOW, this is GREAT.
    I agree that DPD is a not a journalist, does not claim be one and probably never wil be a good one. Yes, he could take a lesson from Bob Dunning.
    David Greenwald should either run for council or admit he hopes his labor rep wife will win so he can manipulate behind the scene.
    Yes, I remember reading the article in the aggie where “ole” lamar made those “general comments”. He meant every word of it. Lamar is clueless.
    Vote for Saylor and Sue Greenwald for City Council and don’t allow dpd to run the city of Davis.

  125. davisite

    DPD’s commentary does reflect a little more “heat” than usual. I suspect that it stems from the sense of frustration that many feel concerning a condition that often seems incurable in the Davis-voter
    body politic.. namely POLITICAL AMNESIA

  126. davisite

    DPD’s commentary does reflect a little more “heat” than usual. I suspect that it stems from the sense of frustration that many feel concerning a condition that often seems incurable in the Davis-voter
    body politic.. namely POLITICAL AMNESIA

  127. davisite

    DPD’s commentary does reflect a little more “heat” than usual. I suspect that it stems from the sense of frustration that many feel concerning a condition that often seems incurable in the Davis-voter
    body politic.. namely POLITICAL AMNESIA

  128. davisite

    DPD’s commentary does reflect a little more “heat” than usual. I suspect that it stems from the sense of frustration that many feel concerning a condition that often seems incurable in the Davis-voter
    body politic.. namely POLITICAL AMNESIA

  129. Black Bart

    I remember Lamar’s sophmoric piece in the Aggie and remember thinking it was a mistake. Still there ought to be a statute of limitations on such things in the age of YOU TUBE. As for Don this is he first election for him since he tried to keep Lamar off the council so I think it is legit.

    Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement so I think it is good that ths blog is here as a counter-balance.

    As for my vote it is unlikely to go to the incumbents they are all so nasty to one another.

  130. Black Bart

    I remember Lamar’s sophmoric piece in the Aggie and remember thinking it was a mistake. Still there ought to be a statute of limitations on such things in the age of YOU TUBE. As for Don this is he first election for him since he tried to keep Lamar off the council so I think it is legit.

    Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement so I think it is good that ths blog is here as a counter-balance.

    As for my vote it is unlikely to go to the incumbents they are all so nasty to one another.

  131. Black Bart

    I remember Lamar’s sophmoric piece in the Aggie and remember thinking it was a mistake. Still there ought to be a statute of limitations on such things in the age of YOU TUBE. As for Don this is he first election for him since he tried to keep Lamar off the council so I think it is legit.

    Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement so I think it is good that ths blog is here as a counter-balance.

    As for my vote it is unlikely to go to the incumbents they are all so nasty to one another.

  132. Black Bart

    I remember Lamar’s sophmoric piece in the Aggie and remember thinking it was a mistake. Still there ought to be a statute of limitations on such things in the age of YOU TUBE. As for Don this is he first election for him since he tried to keep Lamar off the council so I think it is legit.

    Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement so I think it is good that ths blog is here as a counter-balance.

    As for my vote it is unlikely to go to the incumbents they are all so nasty to one another.

  133. don shor

    “Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement…’

    That’s not how I read it. Actually, the column had little to do with Don Saylor, Bob Dunning has never endorsed him nor even implied that he does, and from what little Bob has revealed of his political beliefs I see no reason to believe he supports or opposes Don Saylor.

  134. don shor

    “Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement…’

    That’s not how I read it. Actually, the column had little to do with Don Saylor, Bob Dunning has never endorsed him nor even implied that he does, and from what little Bob has revealed of his political beliefs I see no reason to believe he supports or opposes Don Saylor.

  135. don shor

    “Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement…’

    That’s not how I read it. Actually, the column had little to do with Don Saylor, Bob Dunning has never endorsed him nor even implied that he does, and from what little Bob has revealed of his political beliefs I see no reason to believe he supports or opposes Don Saylor.

  136. don shor

    “Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement…’

    That’s not how I read it. Actually, the column had little to do with Don Saylor, Bob Dunning has never endorsed him nor even implied that he does, and from what little Bob has revealed of his political beliefs I see no reason to believe he supports or opposes Don Saylor.

  137. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    I remember Lamar’s sophmoric piece in the Aggie and remember thinking it was a mistake. Still there ought to be a statute of limitations on such things in the age of YOU TUBE. As for Don this is he first election for him since he tried to keep Lamar off the council so I think it is legit.

    Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement so I think it is good that ths blog is here as a counter-balance.

    As for my vote it is unlikely to go to the incumbents they are all so nasty to one another.

    Black Bart, given your past posts, I would think you would be more of an issue-driven voter than a personal style-driven voter. Do you really expect that Rob or Sydney are going to rise above the nastiness? I for one don’t care if the Council is civil as long as teir policy decisions are sound.

  138. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    I remember Lamar’s sophmoric piece in the Aggie and remember thinking it was a mistake. Still there ought to be a statute of limitations on such things in the age of YOU TUBE. As for Don this is he first election for him since he tried to keep Lamar off the council so I think it is legit.

    Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement so I think it is good that ths blog is here as a counter-balance.

    As for my vote it is unlikely to go to the incumbents they are all so nasty to one another.

    Black Bart, given your past posts, I would think you would be more of an issue-driven voter than a personal style-driven voter. Do you really expect that Rob or Sydney are going to rise above the nastiness? I for one don’t care if the Council is civil as long as teir policy decisions are sound.

  139. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    I remember Lamar’s sophmoric piece in the Aggie and remember thinking it was a mistake. Still there ought to be a statute of limitations on such things in the age of YOU TUBE. As for Don this is he first election for him since he tried to keep Lamar off the council so I think it is legit.

    Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement so I think it is good that ths blog is here as a counter-balance.

    As for my vote it is unlikely to go to the incumbents they are all so nasty to one another.

    Black Bart, given your past posts, I would think you would be more of an issue-driven voter than a personal style-driven voter. Do you really expect that Rob or Sydney are going to rise above the nastiness? I for one don’t care if the Council is civil as long as teir policy decisions are sound.

  140. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    I remember Lamar’s sophmoric piece in the Aggie and remember thinking it was a mistake. Still there ought to be a statute of limitations on such things in the age of YOU TUBE. As for Don this is he first election for him since he tried to keep Lamar off the council so I think it is legit.

    Of course Dunning will deny that he is endorsing Don but a reasonable person could infer from his piece that it was an endorsement so I think it is good that ths blog is here as a counter-balance.

    As for my vote it is unlikely to go to the incumbents they are all so nasty to one another.

    Black Bart, given your past posts, I would think you would be more of an issue-driven voter than a personal style-driven voter. Do you really expect that Rob or Sydney are going to rise above the nastiness? I for one don’t care if the Council is civil as long as teir policy decisions are sound.

  141. Matt Williams

    Bart, BTW I’m not sure if you saw my answer to your policy question a few threads back. In case you didn’t here it is again.

    Black Bart said…

    If you put 1000 new homes on the market in Davis it would in fact depress the market even further and reduce prices. I don’t know what they would end up selling for but your suggestion that they would not have an economic impact is wrong.

    The numbers do not lie … in 1998 999 new single-family-home building permits were issued. That was a 4.8% increase in the single-family housing supply. In the 1st Quarter of 1999 the Average Price Per Square Foot of single-family home sales in Davis was $133, up 9.9% from the same period the year before.

    In 1999 another 926 new single-family-home building permits were issued. That was a 4.2% increase in the single-family housing supply. In the 1st Quarter of 2000 the Average Price Per Square Foot of single-family home sales in Davis was $150, up 12.8% from the $133 of the same period in 1999.

    Bottom-line, increase in local Davis supply did not decrease local Davis housing costs. The Demand for Davis housing is so elastic that virtually no amount of increase in Supply will meet the Demand.

    I for one want to hear from the candidates about how Davis should deal with that.

  142. Matt Williams

    Bart, BTW I’m not sure if you saw my answer to your policy question a few threads back. In case you didn’t here it is again.

    Black Bart said…

    If you put 1000 new homes on the market in Davis it would in fact depress the market even further and reduce prices. I don’t know what they would end up selling for but your suggestion that they would not have an economic impact is wrong.

    The numbers do not lie … in 1998 999 new single-family-home building permits were issued. That was a 4.8% increase in the single-family housing supply. In the 1st Quarter of 1999 the Average Price Per Square Foot of single-family home sales in Davis was $133, up 9.9% from the same period the year before.

    In 1999 another 926 new single-family-home building permits were issued. That was a 4.2% increase in the single-family housing supply. In the 1st Quarter of 2000 the Average Price Per Square Foot of single-family home sales in Davis was $150, up 12.8% from the $133 of the same period in 1999.

    Bottom-line, increase in local Davis supply did not decrease local Davis housing costs. The Demand for Davis housing is so elastic that virtually no amount of increase in Supply will meet the Demand.

    I for one want to hear from the candidates about how Davis should deal with that.

  143. Matt Williams

    Bart, BTW I’m not sure if you saw my answer to your policy question a few threads back. In case you didn’t here it is again.

    Black Bart said…

    If you put 1000 new homes on the market in Davis it would in fact depress the market even further and reduce prices. I don’t know what they would end up selling for but your suggestion that they would not have an economic impact is wrong.

    The numbers do not lie … in 1998 999 new single-family-home building permits were issued. That was a 4.8% increase in the single-family housing supply. In the 1st Quarter of 1999 the Average Price Per Square Foot of single-family home sales in Davis was $133, up 9.9% from the same period the year before.

    In 1999 another 926 new single-family-home building permits were issued. That was a 4.2% increase in the single-family housing supply. In the 1st Quarter of 2000 the Average Price Per Square Foot of single-family home sales in Davis was $150, up 12.8% from the $133 of the same period in 1999.

    Bottom-line, increase in local Davis supply did not decrease local Davis housing costs. The Demand for Davis housing is so elastic that virtually no amount of increase in Supply will meet the Demand.

    I for one want to hear from the candidates about how Davis should deal with that.

  144. Matt Williams

    Bart, BTW I’m not sure if you saw my answer to your policy question a few threads back. In case you didn’t here it is again.

    Black Bart said…

    If you put 1000 new homes on the market in Davis it would in fact depress the market even further and reduce prices. I don’t know what they would end up selling for but your suggestion that they would not have an economic impact is wrong.

    The numbers do not lie … in 1998 999 new single-family-home building permits were issued. That was a 4.8% increase in the single-family housing supply. In the 1st Quarter of 1999 the Average Price Per Square Foot of single-family home sales in Davis was $133, up 9.9% from the same period the year before.

    In 1999 another 926 new single-family-home building permits were issued. That was a 4.2% increase in the single-family housing supply. In the 1st Quarter of 2000 the Average Price Per Square Foot of single-family home sales in Davis was $150, up 12.8% from the $133 of the same period in 1999.

    Bottom-line, increase in local Davis supply did not decrease local Davis housing costs. The Demand for Davis housing is so elastic that virtually no amount of increase in Supply will meet the Demand.

    I for one want to hear from the candidates about how Davis should deal with that.

  145. Black Bart

    Matt,

    These are snapshot years as the bubble built. To get an honest analysis you would need to compare the same year increases against the percentages from surrounding areas that had similar rates of growth. If you go back further you will find years when the market was flat because of growth in supply. My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics something that the mayor does regularly and the main reason I would not vote for her to be re-elected.

  146. Black Bart

    Matt,

    These are snapshot years as the bubble built. To get an honest analysis you would need to compare the same year increases against the percentages from surrounding areas that had similar rates of growth. If you go back further you will find years when the market was flat because of growth in supply. My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics something that the mayor does regularly and the main reason I would not vote for her to be re-elected.

  147. Black Bart

    Matt,

    These are snapshot years as the bubble built. To get an honest analysis you would need to compare the same year increases against the percentages from surrounding areas that had similar rates of growth. If you go back further you will find years when the market was flat because of growth in supply. My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics something that the mayor does regularly and the main reason I would not vote for her to be re-elected.

  148. Black Bart

    Matt,

    These are snapshot years as the bubble built. To get an honest analysis you would need to compare the same year increases against the percentages from surrounding areas that had similar rates of growth. If you go back further you will find years when the market was flat because of growth in supply. My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics something that the mayor does regularly and the main reason I would not vote for her to be re-elected.

  149. don shor

    Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Don:

    Can you cite a time and situation where Bob eviscerated Don Saylor?
    —-
    I can’t cite any times that Bob “eviscerated” any number of local politicos. I can remember instances over many years when he skewered politicians across the spectrum.
    If you can find a common political philosophy among Julie Partansky, Mike Corbett, Dave Rosenberg, and Sue Greenwald, I’d be curious what it is.
    Bob has no political agenda locally.

  150. don shor

    Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Don:

    Can you cite a time and situation where Bob eviscerated Don Saylor?
    —-
    I can’t cite any times that Bob “eviscerated” any number of local politicos. I can remember instances over many years when he skewered politicians across the spectrum.
    If you can find a common political philosophy among Julie Partansky, Mike Corbett, Dave Rosenberg, and Sue Greenwald, I’d be curious what it is.
    Bob has no political agenda locally.

  151. don shor

    Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Don:

    Can you cite a time and situation where Bob eviscerated Don Saylor?
    —-
    I can’t cite any times that Bob “eviscerated” any number of local politicos. I can remember instances over many years when he skewered politicians across the spectrum.
    If you can find a common political philosophy among Julie Partansky, Mike Corbett, Dave Rosenberg, and Sue Greenwald, I’d be curious what it is.
    Bob has no political agenda locally.

  152. don shor

    Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Don:

    Can you cite a time and situation where Bob eviscerated Don Saylor?
    —-
    I can’t cite any times that Bob “eviscerated” any number of local politicos. I can remember instances over many years when he skewered politicians across the spectrum.
    If you can find a common political philosophy among Julie Partansky, Mike Corbett, Dave Rosenberg, and Sue Greenwald, I’d be curious what it is.
    Bob has no political agenda locally.

  153. don shor

    “My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics….’
    This is a regional housing market. Davis does not exist in a bubble. I guess the key question would be what number of houses it would take to ‘eventually’ impact prices.

  154. don shor

    “My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics….’
    This is a regional housing market. Davis does not exist in a bubble. I guess the key question would be what number of houses it would take to ‘eventually’ impact prices.

  155. don shor

    “My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics….’
    This is a regional housing market. Davis does not exist in a bubble. I guess the key question would be what number of houses it would take to ‘eventually’ impact prices.

  156. don shor

    “My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics….’
    This is a regional housing market. Davis does not exist in a bubble. I guess the key question would be what number of houses it would take to ‘eventually’ impact prices.

  157. don shor

    “I can’t cite any times that Bob “eviscerated” any number of local politicos.”

    That sentence doesn’t scan. Let me try again.
    There are many local politicos that Bob has not made fun of, and there are others that he has. There doesn’t seem to be any philosophical consistency about which politicians he uses a fodder in his columns. He particularly pokes fun at people who take themselves too seriously, and people who seem like long shots.

  158. don shor

    “I can’t cite any times that Bob “eviscerated” any number of local politicos.”

    That sentence doesn’t scan. Let me try again.
    There are many local politicos that Bob has not made fun of, and there are others that he has. There doesn’t seem to be any philosophical consistency about which politicians he uses a fodder in his columns. He particularly pokes fun at people who take themselves too seriously, and people who seem like long shots.

  159. don shor

    “I can’t cite any times that Bob “eviscerated” any number of local politicos.”

    That sentence doesn’t scan. Let me try again.
    There are many local politicos that Bob has not made fun of, and there are others that he has. There doesn’t seem to be any philosophical consistency about which politicians he uses a fodder in his columns. He particularly pokes fun at people who take themselves too seriously, and people who seem like long shots.

  160. don shor

    “I can’t cite any times that Bob “eviscerated” any number of local politicos.”

    That sentence doesn’t scan. Let me try again.
    There are many local politicos that Bob has not made fun of, and there are others that he has. There doesn’t seem to be any philosophical consistency about which politicians he uses a fodder in his columns. He particularly pokes fun at people who take themselves too seriously, and people who seem like long shots.

  161. old timer

    Don… one thing is quite consistent in Dunning’s choice of victims. He assesses that their anger in response to their public ridicule is not a threat to his “rice bowl” at the Enterprise. You only have to look at his extremely blunted barbs occasionally hurled in the direction of Ruth Asmundson to find confirmation.

  162. old timer

    Don… one thing is quite consistent in Dunning’s choice of victims. He assesses that their anger in response to their public ridicule is not a threat to his “rice bowl” at the Enterprise. You only have to look at his extremely blunted barbs occasionally hurled in the direction of Ruth Asmundson to find confirmation.

  163. old timer

    Don… one thing is quite consistent in Dunning’s choice of victims. He assesses that their anger in response to their public ridicule is not a threat to his “rice bowl” at the Enterprise. You only have to look at his extremely blunted barbs occasionally hurled in the direction of Ruth Asmundson to find confirmation.

  164. old timer

    Don… one thing is quite consistent in Dunning’s choice of victims. He assesses that their anger in response to their public ridicule is not a threat to his “rice bowl” at the Enterprise. You only have to look at his extremely blunted barbs occasionally hurled in the direction of Ruth Asmundson to find confirmation.

  165. Diogenes

    James Schwab has posted a couple of times regarding the fact DPD writes a blog and as such, opinion is acceptable and in fact, should be expected.

    Many of us take issue with your comments (and DPD) because DPD often criticizes the Enterprise or the Sacramento Bee as being one sided and opinionated … yet you defend him for being opionated and one sided. This is the very essence of hypocrisy – to critize others for the same thing you do.
    Further, DPD’s credibility is eroded even further when he chooses to criticize (and very poorly, I might add), certain candidates for City Council when his wife is running against those that he criticizes. And now, in an almost unbelievable example of hypocrisy, he takes the spouse of a candidate to task for a letter to the editor of the Enterprise. I guess we should conclude that Cecilia wrote the Don Saylor hack piece in today’s Vanguard?

    The Vanguard has proven to be the “dark underbelly of the people’s republic of davis”. Cecilia’s campaign, like Hillary Clinton’s, must be struggling.

  166. Diogenes

    James Schwab has posted a couple of times regarding the fact DPD writes a blog and as such, opinion is acceptable and in fact, should be expected.

    Many of us take issue with your comments (and DPD) because DPD often criticizes the Enterprise or the Sacramento Bee as being one sided and opinionated … yet you defend him for being opionated and one sided. This is the very essence of hypocrisy – to critize others for the same thing you do.
    Further, DPD’s credibility is eroded even further when he chooses to criticize (and very poorly, I might add), certain candidates for City Council when his wife is running against those that he criticizes. And now, in an almost unbelievable example of hypocrisy, he takes the spouse of a candidate to task for a letter to the editor of the Enterprise. I guess we should conclude that Cecilia wrote the Don Saylor hack piece in today’s Vanguard?

    The Vanguard has proven to be the “dark underbelly of the people’s republic of davis”. Cecilia’s campaign, like Hillary Clinton’s, must be struggling.

  167. Diogenes

    James Schwab has posted a couple of times regarding the fact DPD writes a blog and as such, opinion is acceptable and in fact, should be expected.

    Many of us take issue with your comments (and DPD) because DPD often criticizes the Enterprise or the Sacramento Bee as being one sided and opinionated … yet you defend him for being opionated and one sided. This is the very essence of hypocrisy – to critize others for the same thing you do.
    Further, DPD’s credibility is eroded even further when he chooses to criticize (and very poorly, I might add), certain candidates for City Council when his wife is running against those that he criticizes. And now, in an almost unbelievable example of hypocrisy, he takes the spouse of a candidate to task for a letter to the editor of the Enterprise. I guess we should conclude that Cecilia wrote the Don Saylor hack piece in today’s Vanguard?

    The Vanguard has proven to be the “dark underbelly of the people’s republic of davis”. Cecilia’s campaign, like Hillary Clinton’s, must be struggling.

  168. Diogenes

    James Schwab has posted a couple of times regarding the fact DPD writes a blog and as such, opinion is acceptable and in fact, should be expected.

    Many of us take issue with your comments (and DPD) because DPD often criticizes the Enterprise or the Sacramento Bee as being one sided and opinionated … yet you defend him for being opionated and one sided. This is the very essence of hypocrisy – to critize others for the same thing you do.
    Further, DPD’s credibility is eroded even further when he chooses to criticize (and very poorly, I might add), certain candidates for City Council when his wife is running against those that he criticizes. And now, in an almost unbelievable example of hypocrisy, he takes the spouse of a candidate to task for a letter to the editor of the Enterprise. I guess we should conclude that Cecilia wrote the Don Saylor hack piece in today’s Vanguard?

    The Vanguard has proven to be the “dark underbelly of the people’s republic of davis”. Cecilia’s campaign, like Hillary Clinton’s, must be struggling.

  169. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    Matt, These are snapshot years as the bubble built. To get an honest analysis you would need to compare the same year increases against the percentages from surrounding areas that had similar rates of growth. If you go back further you will find years when the market was flat because of growth in supply. My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics.

    Bart, I will be glad to work with you to indeed see if your premise is correct. Do you have access to the data?

    In the meantime, I agree with Don Shor’s point that you are ignoring one of the fundamental principals of economics, specifically the elasticity of demand. Why is the elasticity of housing demand effectively infinite in Davis? I can think of three reasons right off the top of my head, 1) the steady growth of the student body numbers at UCD, effectively flooding the Davis housing market with (in 2007) over 16,000 student residents, 2) the failure of UCD to step up to the plate and house more than 25% of its students, when the UC Target is 42% for all UC campuses, and the UC attainment against that target is 38%, and 3) the fact that there are so many people living in towns and cities outside Davis who want to make Davis a bedroom community for wherever the happen to work (e.g. Sacramento, the Bay Area, etc.).

    None of those three factors are expected to abate any time in the near future. Therefore the elasticity of demand will trump any increases in supply.

  170. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    Matt, These are snapshot years as the bubble built. To get an honest analysis you would need to compare the same year increases against the percentages from surrounding areas that had similar rates of growth. If you go back further you will find years when the market was flat because of growth in supply. My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics.

    Bart, I will be glad to work with you to indeed see if your premise is correct. Do you have access to the data?

    In the meantime, I agree with Don Shor’s point that you are ignoring one of the fundamental principals of economics, specifically the elasticity of demand. Why is the elasticity of housing demand effectively infinite in Davis? I can think of three reasons right off the top of my head, 1) the steady growth of the student body numbers at UCD, effectively flooding the Davis housing market with (in 2007) over 16,000 student residents, 2) the failure of UCD to step up to the plate and house more than 25% of its students, when the UC Target is 42% for all UC campuses, and the UC attainment against that target is 38%, and 3) the fact that there are so many people living in towns and cities outside Davis who want to make Davis a bedroom community for wherever the happen to work (e.g. Sacramento, the Bay Area, etc.).

    None of those three factors are expected to abate any time in the near future. Therefore the elasticity of demand will trump any increases in supply.

  171. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    Matt, These are snapshot years as the bubble built. To get an honest analysis you would need to compare the same year increases against the percentages from surrounding areas that had similar rates of growth. If you go back further you will find years when the market was flat because of growth in supply. My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics.

    Bart, I will be glad to work with you to indeed see if your premise is correct. Do you have access to the data?

    In the meantime, I agree with Don Shor’s point that you are ignoring one of the fundamental principals of economics, specifically the elasticity of demand. Why is the elasticity of housing demand effectively infinite in Davis? I can think of three reasons right off the top of my head, 1) the steady growth of the student body numbers at UCD, effectively flooding the Davis housing market with (in 2007) over 16,000 student residents, 2) the failure of UCD to step up to the plate and house more than 25% of its students, when the UC Target is 42% for all UC campuses, and the UC attainment against that target is 38%, and 3) the fact that there are so many people living in towns and cities outside Davis who want to make Davis a bedroom community for wherever the happen to work (e.g. Sacramento, the Bay Area, etc.).

    None of those three factors are expected to abate any time in the near future. Therefore the elasticity of demand will trump any increases in supply.

  172. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    Matt, These are snapshot years as the bubble built. To get an honest analysis you would need to compare the same year increases against the percentages from surrounding areas that had similar rates of growth. If you go back further you will find years when the market was flat because of growth in supply. My point was that you could build and build and eventually supply would impact prices. To deny this is to deny the fundamental laws of economics.

    Bart, I will be glad to work with you to indeed see if your premise is correct. Do you have access to the data?

    In the meantime, I agree with Don Shor’s point that you are ignoring one of the fundamental principals of economics, specifically the elasticity of demand. Why is the elasticity of housing demand effectively infinite in Davis? I can think of three reasons right off the top of my head, 1) the steady growth of the student body numbers at UCD, effectively flooding the Davis housing market with (in 2007) over 16,000 student residents, 2) the failure of UCD to step up to the plate and house more than 25% of its students, when the UC Target is 42% for all UC campuses, and the UC attainment against that target is 38%, and 3) the fact that there are so many people living in towns and cities outside Davis who want to make Davis a bedroom community for wherever the happen to work (e.g. Sacramento, the Bay Area, etc.).

    None of those three factors are expected to abate any time in the near future. Therefore the elasticity of demand will trump any increases in supply.

  173. Matt Williams

    Bart, to further address your “bubble” comment here are some more expansive stats:

    Average Sale Price Per Square Foot
    1st Quarter 1998 $121 N/A
    1st Quarter 1999 $133 9.9%
    1st Quarter 2000 $150 12.8%
    1st Quarter 2001 $158 5.3%
    1st Quarter 2002 $190 20.3%
    1st Quarter 2003 $259 36.3%
    1st Quarter 2004 $270 4.2%
    1st Quarter 2005 $326 20.7%
    1st Quarter 2006 $351 7.7%
    1st Quarter 2007 $325 -7.4%
    1st Quarter 2008 $314 -3.4%

    Households Growth
    1998 999 4.8%
    1999 926 4.2%
    2000 566 2.5%
    2001 206 0.9%
    2002 307 1.3%
    2003 265 1.1%
    2004 135 0.6%
    2005 250 1.0%
    2006 104 0.4%
    2007 44 0.2%

    Differential between Price Growth and Supply Growth
    1st Quarter 1999 5.1%
    1st Quarter 2000 8.5%
    1st Quarter 2001 2.8%
    1st Quarter 2002 19.4%
    1st Quarter 2003 35.0%
    1st Quarter 2004 3.1%
    1st Quarter 2005 20.2%
    1st Quarter 2006 6.6%
    1st Quarter 2007 -7.8%
    1st Quarter 2008 -3.6%

    As you can see the differential between price growth and supply growth is totally inconsistent. That kind of variability can not be explained through fluctuations in “internal” demand, which in Davis is relatively constant. Virtually all of that variability is from “external” demand, which ties back to reason 3) in my prior post.

    If that logic is correct, it begs the question, should Davis be building homes to address its “external” demand for housing?

    Time’s yours.

  174. Matt Williams

    Bart, to further address your “bubble” comment here are some more expansive stats:

    Average Sale Price Per Square Foot
    1st Quarter 1998 $121 N/A
    1st Quarter 1999 $133 9.9%
    1st Quarter 2000 $150 12.8%
    1st Quarter 2001 $158 5.3%
    1st Quarter 2002 $190 20.3%
    1st Quarter 2003 $259 36.3%
    1st Quarter 2004 $270 4.2%
    1st Quarter 2005 $326 20.7%
    1st Quarter 2006 $351 7.7%
    1st Quarter 2007 $325 -7.4%
    1st Quarter 2008 $314 -3.4%

    Households Growth
    1998 999 4.8%
    1999 926 4.2%
    2000 566 2.5%
    2001 206 0.9%
    2002 307 1.3%
    2003 265 1.1%
    2004 135 0.6%
    2005 250 1.0%
    2006 104 0.4%
    2007 44 0.2%

    Differential between Price Growth and Supply Growth
    1st Quarter 1999 5.1%
    1st Quarter 2000 8.5%
    1st Quarter 2001 2.8%
    1st Quarter 2002 19.4%
    1st Quarter 2003 35.0%
    1st Quarter 2004 3.1%
    1st Quarter 2005 20.2%
    1st Quarter 2006 6.6%
    1st Quarter 2007 -7.8%
    1st Quarter 2008 -3.6%

    As you can see the differential between price growth and supply growth is totally inconsistent. That kind of variability can not be explained through fluctuations in “internal” demand, which in Davis is relatively constant. Virtually all of that variability is from “external” demand, which ties back to reason 3) in my prior post.

    If that logic is correct, it begs the question, should Davis be building homes to address its “external” demand for housing?

    Time’s yours.

  175. Matt Williams

    Bart, to further address your “bubble” comment here are some more expansive stats:

    Average Sale Price Per Square Foot
    1st Quarter 1998 $121 N/A
    1st Quarter 1999 $133 9.9%
    1st Quarter 2000 $150 12.8%
    1st Quarter 2001 $158 5.3%
    1st Quarter 2002 $190 20.3%
    1st Quarter 2003 $259 36.3%
    1st Quarter 2004 $270 4.2%
    1st Quarter 2005 $326 20.7%
    1st Quarter 2006 $351 7.7%
    1st Quarter 2007 $325 -7.4%
    1st Quarter 2008 $314 -3.4%

    Households Growth
    1998 999 4.8%
    1999 926 4.2%
    2000 566 2.5%
    2001 206 0.9%
    2002 307 1.3%
    2003 265 1.1%
    2004 135 0.6%
    2005 250 1.0%
    2006 104 0.4%
    2007 44 0.2%

    Differential between Price Growth and Supply Growth
    1st Quarter 1999 5.1%
    1st Quarter 2000 8.5%
    1st Quarter 2001 2.8%
    1st Quarter 2002 19.4%
    1st Quarter 2003 35.0%
    1st Quarter 2004 3.1%
    1st Quarter 2005 20.2%
    1st Quarter 2006 6.6%
    1st Quarter 2007 -7.8%
    1st Quarter 2008 -3.6%

    As you can see the differential between price growth and supply growth is totally inconsistent. That kind of variability can not be explained through fluctuations in “internal” demand, which in Davis is relatively constant. Virtually all of that variability is from “external” demand, which ties back to reason 3) in my prior post.

    If that logic is correct, it begs the question, should Davis be building homes to address its “external” demand for housing?

    Time’s yours.

  176. Matt Williams

    Bart, to further address your “bubble” comment here are some more expansive stats:

    Average Sale Price Per Square Foot
    1st Quarter 1998 $121 N/A
    1st Quarter 1999 $133 9.9%
    1st Quarter 2000 $150 12.8%
    1st Quarter 2001 $158 5.3%
    1st Quarter 2002 $190 20.3%
    1st Quarter 2003 $259 36.3%
    1st Quarter 2004 $270 4.2%
    1st Quarter 2005 $326 20.7%
    1st Quarter 2006 $351 7.7%
    1st Quarter 2007 $325 -7.4%
    1st Quarter 2008 $314 -3.4%

    Households Growth
    1998 999 4.8%
    1999 926 4.2%
    2000 566 2.5%
    2001 206 0.9%
    2002 307 1.3%
    2003 265 1.1%
    2004 135 0.6%
    2005 250 1.0%
    2006 104 0.4%
    2007 44 0.2%

    Differential between Price Growth and Supply Growth
    1st Quarter 1999 5.1%
    1st Quarter 2000 8.5%
    1st Quarter 2001 2.8%
    1st Quarter 2002 19.4%
    1st Quarter 2003 35.0%
    1st Quarter 2004 3.1%
    1st Quarter 2005 20.2%
    1st Quarter 2006 6.6%
    1st Quarter 2007 -7.8%
    1st Quarter 2008 -3.6%

    As you can see the differential between price growth and supply growth is totally inconsistent. That kind of variability can not be explained through fluctuations in “internal” demand, which in Davis is relatively constant. Virtually all of that variability is from “external” demand, which ties back to reason 3) in my prior post.

    If that logic is correct, it begs the question, should Davis be building homes to address its “external” demand for housing?

    Time’s yours.

  177. Anonymous

    I think this article is embarassing in a setting where DPD is already purporting to analyze the city council election and candidates in a race where his wife is running. There was no provocation for this hit piece on Saylor, other than a desire to take any opportunity to attack. It’s sort of like when Rumsfield wanted to attack Iraq within a few hours of the 911 tragedy. Moreover, this is old, redundant news on this blog. It’s already been said more times than is newsworthy. Any attempt at objectivity would suggest a more judicious use of blogspace.

  178. Anonymous

    I think this article is embarassing in a setting where DPD is already purporting to analyze the city council election and candidates in a race where his wife is running. There was no provocation for this hit piece on Saylor, other than a desire to take any opportunity to attack. It’s sort of like when Rumsfield wanted to attack Iraq within a few hours of the 911 tragedy. Moreover, this is old, redundant news on this blog. It’s already been said more times than is newsworthy. Any attempt at objectivity would suggest a more judicious use of blogspace.

  179. Anonymous

    I think this article is embarassing in a setting where DPD is already purporting to analyze the city council election and candidates in a race where his wife is running. There was no provocation for this hit piece on Saylor, other than a desire to take any opportunity to attack. It’s sort of like when Rumsfield wanted to attack Iraq within a few hours of the 911 tragedy. Moreover, this is old, redundant news on this blog. It’s already been said more times than is newsworthy. Any attempt at objectivity would suggest a more judicious use of blogspace.

  180. Anonymous

    I think this article is embarassing in a setting where DPD is already purporting to analyze the city council election and candidates in a race where his wife is running. There was no provocation for this hit piece on Saylor, other than a desire to take any opportunity to attack. It’s sort of like when Rumsfield wanted to attack Iraq within a few hours of the 911 tragedy. Moreover, this is old, redundant news on this blog. It’s already been said more times than is newsworthy. Any attempt at objectivity would suggest a more judicious use of blogspace.

  181. Curt Young

    Suddenly Don Saylor is some kind of sacred cow for a bunch of people who lack the courage to post by their actual name. I’m sorry, but if you do not have the courage to put your name on your post, your complaints are very hollow.

  182. Curt Young

    Suddenly Don Saylor is some kind of sacred cow for a bunch of people who lack the courage to post by their actual name. I’m sorry, but if you do not have the courage to put your name on your post, your complaints are very hollow.

  183. Curt Young

    Suddenly Don Saylor is some kind of sacred cow for a bunch of people who lack the courage to post by their actual name. I’m sorry, but if you do not have the courage to put your name on your post, your complaints are very hollow.

  184. Curt Young

    Suddenly Don Saylor is some kind of sacred cow for a bunch of people who lack the courage to post by their actual name. I’m sorry, but if you do not have the courage to put your name on your post, your complaints are very hollow.

  185. Diogenes

    Matt –

    I think the appropriate comparison is price vs supply in Davis, and in those communities around Davis to see what the difference in elasticity. There are many factors that could skew the analysis you shared with us, resulting in false conclusions.

    Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply. I am sure however, that a lack of supply drives housing prices up more quickly than does some increase in supply.

    Davis is not alone in the regard that its demographics are being significantly shifted because of housing prices. San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, etc etc are all examples of what happens when supply is constrained and demand is relatively high.

  186. Diogenes

    Matt –

    I think the appropriate comparison is price vs supply in Davis, and in those communities around Davis to see what the difference in elasticity. There are many factors that could skew the analysis you shared with us, resulting in false conclusions.

    Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply. I am sure however, that a lack of supply drives housing prices up more quickly than does some increase in supply.

    Davis is not alone in the regard that its demographics are being significantly shifted because of housing prices. San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, etc etc are all examples of what happens when supply is constrained and demand is relatively high.

  187. Diogenes

    Matt –

    I think the appropriate comparison is price vs supply in Davis, and in those communities around Davis to see what the difference in elasticity. There are many factors that could skew the analysis you shared with us, resulting in false conclusions.

    Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply. I am sure however, that a lack of supply drives housing prices up more quickly than does some increase in supply.

    Davis is not alone in the regard that its demographics are being significantly shifted because of housing prices. San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, etc etc are all examples of what happens when supply is constrained and demand is relatively high.

  188. Diogenes

    Matt –

    I think the appropriate comparison is price vs supply in Davis, and in those communities around Davis to see what the difference in elasticity. There are many factors that could skew the analysis you shared with us, resulting in false conclusions.

    Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply. I am sure however, that a lack of supply drives housing prices up more quickly than does some increase in supply.

    Davis is not alone in the regard that its demographics are being significantly shifted because of housing prices. San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, etc etc are all examples of what happens when supply is constrained and demand is relatively high.

  189. Doug Paul Davis

    “Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply.”

    I think that’s probably correct, but the question is how much growth would that take? And the other question would be at what cost?

  190. Doug Paul Davis

    “Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply.”

    I think that’s probably correct, but the question is how much growth would that take? And the other question would be at what cost?

  191. Doug Paul Davis

    “Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply.”

    I think that’s probably correct, but the question is how much growth would that take? And the other question would be at what cost?

  192. Doug Paul Davis

    “Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply.”

    I think that’s probably correct, but the question is how much growth would that take? And the other question would be at what cost?

  193. Anonymous

    It’s not about Don Saylor being a sacred cow. He’s far from that. It’s about DPD coming from out of left field to take a sucker punch at someone, anyone. I don’t care who the victim is, it just seems unwarranted.

  194. Anonymous

    It’s not about Don Saylor being a sacred cow. He’s far from that. It’s about DPD coming from out of left field to take a sucker punch at someone, anyone. I don’t care who the victim is, it just seems unwarranted.

  195. Anonymous

    It’s not about Don Saylor being a sacred cow. He’s far from that. It’s about DPD coming from out of left field to take a sucker punch at someone, anyone. I don’t care who the victim is, it just seems unwarranted.

  196. Anonymous

    It’s not about Don Saylor being a sacred cow. He’s far from that. It’s about DPD coming from out of left field to take a sucker punch at someone, anyone. I don’t care who the victim is, it just seems unwarranted.

  197. Curt Young

    Suckerpunch?

    Saylor is running a race in part based on the notion of bringing civility back into public life–does pointing out his hypocrisy on that issue represent a suckerpunch?

    With all the uproar about DPD’s tactics, I imagine all of you were similar concerned with Julie Saylor’s back in 2006. I’m sure you all wrote into either the local newspaper or the blog that online at the time–Yolo Soap Box. Oh wait, you didn’t. Seems like very selective outrage here.

  198. Curt Young

    Suckerpunch?

    Saylor is running a race in part based on the notion of bringing civility back into public life–does pointing out his hypocrisy on that issue represent a suckerpunch?

    With all the uproar about DPD’s tactics, I imagine all of you were similar concerned with Julie Saylor’s back in 2006. I’m sure you all wrote into either the local newspaper or the blog that online at the time–Yolo Soap Box. Oh wait, you didn’t. Seems like very selective outrage here.

  199. Curt Young

    Suckerpunch?

    Saylor is running a race in part based on the notion of bringing civility back into public life–does pointing out his hypocrisy on that issue represent a suckerpunch?

    With all the uproar about DPD’s tactics, I imagine all of you were similar concerned with Julie Saylor’s back in 2006. I’m sure you all wrote into either the local newspaper or the blog that online at the time–Yolo Soap Box. Oh wait, you didn’t. Seems like very selective outrage here.

  200. Curt Young

    Suckerpunch?

    Saylor is running a race in part based on the notion of bringing civility back into public life–does pointing out his hypocrisy on that issue represent a suckerpunch?

    With all the uproar about DPD’s tactics, I imagine all of you were similar concerned with Julie Saylor’s back in 2006. I’m sure you all wrote into either the local newspaper or the blog that online at the time–Yolo Soap Box. Oh wait, you didn’t. Seems like very selective outrage here.

  201. Richard

    black bart starts from the assumption that housing prices respond promptly to supply and demand signals

    I am no expert in this area, but I do know that there are some things that do not do so, oil is one of them, as has been demonstrated over the last 40 years, as it seems to be a commodity prone to price swings based upon speculation and political anxieties

    generally, I find black bart’s worship at the alter of supply and demand quite curious, as one rarely finds it in operation in anything like a pure form, it exists in an imaginary place, along with various socialist utopias

    and, then, there is the question of what kinds of homes can be built in a California city like Davis, as there are zoning rules, tax requirements, code requirements, cost of materials, etc.

    some of these factors are priced by reference to market mechanisms, many are not, so I have no idea as to what the floor is to a price of a Davis house, and whether it would be affordable or not

    likewise, note that homes in older, established locations with reliable public services seem to come on the market with a high value (even now, homes and condos in midtown Sacramento, Land Park, Curtis Park and East Sacramento remain quite expensive) and retain them, while those build in newer communities with a more uncertain political and service environment display tremendous volatility

    my view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities, and this will happen over time, anyway, as even homes for upper middle income people will be pushed in this direction, but it would be better to build such housing now, instead of 10 years from now, so that a place in the community for lower middle income and middle income people can be preserved

    –Richard Estes

  202. Richard

    black bart starts from the assumption that housing prices respond promptly to supply and demand signals

    I am no expert in this area, but I do know that there are some things that do not do so, oil is one of them, as has been demonstrated over the last 40 years, as it seems to be a commodity prone to price swings based upon speculation and political anxieties

    generally, I find black bart’s worship at the alter of supply and demand quite curious, as one rarely finds it in operation in anything like a pure form, it exists in an imaginary place, along with various socialist utopias

    and, then, there is the question of what kinds of homes can be built in a California city like Davis, as there are zoning rules, tax requirements, code requirements, cost of materials, etc.

    some of these factors are priced by reference to market mechanisms, many are not, so I have no idea as to what the floor is to a price of a Davis house, and whether it would be affordable or not

    likewise, note that homes in older, established locations with reliable public services seem to come on the market with a high value (even now, homes and condos in midtown Sacramento, Land Park, Curtis Park and East Sacramento remain quite expensive) and retain them, while those build in newer communities with a more uncertain political and service environment display tremendous volatility

    my view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities, and this will happen over time, anyway, as even homes for upper middle income people will be pushed in this direction, but it would be better to build such housing now, instead of 10 years from now, so that a place in the community for lower middle income and middle income people can be preserved

    –Richard Estes

  203. Richard

    black bart starts from the assumption that housing prices respond promptly to supply and demand signals

    I am no expert in this area, but I do know that there are some things that do not do so, oil is one of them, as has been demonstrated over the last 40 years, as it seems to be a commodity prone to price swings based upon speculation and political anxieties

    generally, I find black bart’s worship at the alter of supply and demand quite curious, as one rarely finds it in operation in anything like a pure form, it exists in an imaginary place, along with various socialist utopias

    and, then, there is the question of what kinds of homes can be built in a California city like Davis, as there are zoning rules, tax requirements, code requirements, cost of materials, etc.

    some of these factors are priced by reference to market mechanisms, many are not, so I have no idea as to what the floor is to a price of a Davis house, and whether it would be affordable or not

    likewise, note that homes in older, established locations with reliable public services seem to come on the market with a high value (even now, homes and condos in midtown Sacramento, Land Park, Curtis Park and East Sacramento remain quite expensive) and retain them, while those build in newer communities with a more uncertain political and service environment display tremendous volatility

    my view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities, and this will happen over time, anyway, as even homes for upper middle income people will be pushed in this direction, but it would be better to build such housing now, instead of 10 years from now, so that a place in the community for lower middle income and middle income people can be preserved

    –Richard Estes

  204. Richard

    black bart starts from the assumption that housing prices respond promptly to supply and demand signals

    I am no expert in this area, but I do know that there are some things that do not do so, oil is one of them, as has been demonstrated over the last 40 years, as it seems to be a commodity prone to price swings based upon speculation and political anxieties

    generally, I find black bart’s worship at the alter of supply and demand quite curious, as one rarely finds it in operation in anything like a pure form, it exists in an imaginary place, along with various socialist utopias

    and, then, there is the question of what kinds of homes can be built in a California city like Davis, as there are zoning rules, tax requirements, code requirements, cost of materials, etc.

    some of these factors are priced by reference to market mechanisms, many are not, so I have no idea as to what the floor is to a price of a Davis house, and whether it would be affordable or not

    likewise, note that homes in older, established locations with reliable public services seem to come on the market with a high value (even now, homes and condos in midtown Sacramento, Land Park, Curtis Park and East Sacramento remain quite expensive) and retain them, while those build in newer communities with a more uncertain political and service environment display tremendous volatility

    my view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities, and this will happen over time, anyway, as even homes for upper middle income people will be pushed in this direction, but it would be better to build such housing now, instead of 10 years from now, so that a place in the community for lower middle income and middle income people can be preserved

    –Richard Estes

  205. Matt Williams

    Diogenes said…

    I think the appropriate comparison is price vs supply in Davis, and in those communities around Davis to see what the difference in elasticity. There are many factors that could skew the analysis you shared with us, resulting in false conclusions.

    Reasonable question Diogenes. I will see what I can chase down. For our 7-11 Committee meeting a few weeks ago we were given the sales price per square foot trends for the last 3 years in Davis, Natomas, Arden, Woodland, and West Sac. It will take some digging to chase down the additional years for those areas … and probably even more work to chase down the matching household growth numbers, but I’ll give it a shot.

    Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply.

    Somehow I don’t see a 9% increase in supply over two years as a “small increase.” With that said, what do you see as a “sustained substantive increase in supply” for Davis?

    I am sure however, that a lack of supply drives housing prices up more quickly than does some increase in supply.

    That was a rhetorical statement, which it is almost impossible to disagree with. What was your point vis-a-vis housing prices in Davis?

    Davis is not alone in the regard that its demographics are being significantly shifted because of housing prices. San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, etc etc are all examples of what happens when supply is constrained and demand is relatively high.

    I’m confused. You said that for a reason. If you expand on your point perhaps I’ll be able to shed my confusion

  206. Matt Williams

    Diogenes said…

    I think the appropriate comparison is price vs supply in Davis, and in those communities around Davis to see what the difference in elasticity. There are many factors that could skew the analysis you shared with us, resulting in false conclusions.

    Reasonable question Diogenes. I will see what I can chase down. For our 7-11 Committee meeting a few weeks ago we were given the sales price per square foot trends for the last 3 years in Davis, Natomas, Arden, Woodland, and West Sac. It will take some digging to chase down the additional years for those areas … and probably even more work to chase down the matching household growth numbers, but I’ll give it a shot.

    Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply.

    Somehow I don’t see a 9% increase in supply over two years as a “small increase.” With that said, what do you see as a “sustained substantive increase in supply” for Davis?

    I am sure however, that a lack of supply drives housing prices up more quickly than does some increase in supply.

    That was a rhetorical statement, which it is almost impossible to disagree with. What was your point vis-a-vis housing prices in Davis?

    Davis is not alone in the regard that its demographics are being significantly shifted because of housing prices. San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, etc etc are all examples of what happens when supply is constrained and demand is relatively high.

    I’m confused. You said that for a reason. If you expand on your point perhaps I’ll be able to shed my confusion

  207. Matt Williams

    Diogenes said…

    I think the appropriate comparison is price vs supply in Davis, and in those communities around Davis to see what the difference in elasticity. There are many factors that could skew the analysis you shared with us, resulting in false conclusions.

    Reasonable question Diogenes. I will see what I can chase down. For our 7-11 Committee meeting a few weeks ago we were given the sales price per square foot trends for the last 3 years in Davis, Natomas, Arden, Woodland, and West Sac. It will take some digging to chase down the additional years for those areas … and probably even more work to chase down the matching household growth numbers, but I’ll give it a shot.

    Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply.

    Somehow I don’t see a 9% increase in supply over two years as a “small increase.” With that said, what do you see as a “sustained substantive increase in supply” for Davis?

    I am sure however, that a lack of supply drives housing prices up more quickly than does some increase in supply.

    That was a rhetorical statement, which it is almost impossible to disagree with. What was your point vis-a-vis housing prices in Davis?

    Davis is not alone in the regard that its demographics are being significantly shifted because of housing prices. San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, etc etc are all examples of what happens when supply is constrained and demand is relatively high.

    I’m confused. You said that for a reason. If you expand on your point perhaps I’ll be able to shed my confusion

  208. Matt Williams

    Diogenes said…

    I think the appropriate comparison is price vs supply in Davis, and in those communities around Davis to see what the difference in elasticity. There are many factors that could skew the analysis you shared with us, resulting in false conclusions.

    Reasonable question Diogenes. I will see what I can chase down. For our 7-11 Committee meeting a few weeks ago we were given the sales price per square foot trends for the last 3 years in Davis, Natomas, Arden, Woodland, and West Sac. It will take some digging to chase down the additional years for those areas … and probably even more work to chase down the matching household growth numbers, but I’ll give it a shot.

    Your position may be right for relatively small increases in supply. I doubt it would be true with sustained sustantive increases in supply.

    Somehow I don’t see a 9% increase in supply over two years as a “small increase.” With that said, what do you see as a “sustained substantive increase in supply” for Davis?

    I am sure however, that a lack of supply drives housing prices up more quickly than does some increase in supply.

    That was a rhetorical statement, which it is almost impossible to disagree with. What was your point vis-a-vis housing prices in Davis?

    Davis is not alone in the regard that its demographics are being significantly shifted because of housing prices. San Francisco, Half Moon Bay, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, etc etc are all examples of what happens when supply is constrained and demand is relatively high.

    I’m confused. You said that for a reason. If you expand on your point perhaps I’ll be able to shed my confusion

  209. Matt Williams

    Richard Estes said ….

    My view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities, and this will happen over time, anyway, as even homes for upper middle income people will be pushed in this direction, but it would be better to build such housing now, instead of 10 years from now, so that a place in the community for lower middle income and middle income people can be preserved.

    Richard, I wish your argument would be true, but it suffers from the same problem you say Black Bart’s points suffer from. It is “pure.” I believe that as long as there is substantial “external” demand for Davis housing the more affluent “external” buyers will outbid the people in the “internal” target.

    However, I do think there is a way to accomplish the end you (and I) desire. That is to force UCD to step up to the plate and provide on-campus housing for the UC system-wide target of 42% of the student population. Right now they only provide housing for 25%. That 17% represents over 5,000 students who would vacate existing Davis housing. The net result would be a reduction in rental rates, as well as freeing up lots of affordable housing units.

  210. Matt Williams

    Richard Estes said ….

    My view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities, and this will happen over time, anyway, as even homes for upper middle income people will be pushed in this direction, but it would be better to build such housing now, instead of 10 years from now, so that a place in the community for lower middle income and middle income people can be preserved.

    Richard, I wish your argument would be true, but it suffers from the same problem you say Black Bart’s points suffer from. It is “pure.” I believe that as long as there is substantial “external” demand for Davis housing the more affluent “external” buyers will outbid the people in the “internal” target.

    However, I do think there is a way to accomplish the end you (and I) desire. That is to force UCD to step up to the plate and provide on-campus housing for the UC system-wide target of 42% of the student population. Right now they only provide housing for 25%. That 17% represents over 5,000 students who would vacate existing Davis housing. The net result would be a reduction in rental rates, as well as freeing up lots of affordable housing units.

  211. Matt Williams

    Richard Estes said ….

    My view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities, and this will happen over time, anyway, as even homes for upper middle income people will be pushed in this direction, but it would be better to build such housing now, instead of 10 years from now, so that a place in the community for lower middle income and middle income people can be preserved.

    Richard, I wish your argument would be true, but it suffers from the same problem you say Black Bart’s points suffer from. It is “pure.” I believe that as long as there is substantial “external” demand for Davis housing the more affluent “external” buyers will outbid the people in the “internal” target.

    However, I do think there is a way to accomplish the end you (and I) desire. That is to force UCD to step up to the plate and provide on-campus housing for the UC system-wide target of 42% of the student population. Right now they only provide housing for 25%. That 17% represents over 5,000 students who would vacate existing Davis housing. The net result would be a reduction in rental rates, as well as freeing up lots of affordable housing units.

  212. Matt Williams

    Richard Estes said ….

    My view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities, and this will happen over time, anyway, as even homes for upper middle income people will be pushed in this direction, but it would be better to build such housing now, instead of 10 years from now, so that a place in the community for lower middle income and middle income people can be preserved.

    Richard, I wish your argument would be true, but it suffers from the same problem you say Black Bart’s points suffer from. It is “pure.” I believe that as long as there is substantial “external” demand for Davis housing the more affluent “external” buyers will outbid the people in the “internal” target.

    However, I do think there is a way to accomplish the end you (and I) desire. That is to force UCD to step up to the plate and provide on-campus housing for the UC system-wide target of 42% of the student population. Right now they only provide housing for 25%. That 17% represents over 5,000 students who would vacate existing Davis housing. The net result would be a reduction in rental rates, as well as freeing up lots of affordable housing units.

  213. Richard

    However, I do think there is a way to accomplish the end you (and I) desire. That is to force UCD to step up to the plate and provide on-campus housing for the UC system-wide target of 42% of the student population. Right now they only provide housing for 25%. That 17% represents over 5,000 students who would vacate existing Davis housing. The net result would be a reduction in rental rates, as well as freeing up lots of affordable housing units.

    Yes, that would help a lot. The assumption behind my assertion is based upon what I have observed in Davis in the last 20 years (and not an abstract belief in the “free market”): the city relinquishes control of the construction of housing developers, and thus, finds itself at the mercy of prices created by many of the factors I mentioned when it comes to traditional single lot family houses.

    Unless one is going to overturn this system, I see no way to reduce prices and make homes more affordable, unless densities are increased, which is, I believe, beginning to happen elsewhere in the region where developers are being forced to accept the consequences of the credit crunch.

    So far, the credit crunch has not hit Davis, and will probably have minimal impact, because the 2005-2007 period did not create the overhang of home construction that one sees in West Sacramento and Woodland

    It is, however, possible that turmoil in the school district and public perception that it is no longer as superior to those nearby communities could have this sort of impact.

    –Ricahrd

  214. Richard

    However, I do think there is a way to accomplish the end you (and I) desire. That is to force UCD to step up to the plate and provide on-campus housing for the UC system-wide target of 42% of the student population. Right now they only provide housing for 25%. That 17% represents over 5,000 students who would vacate existing Davis housing. The net result would be a reduction in rental rates, as well as freeing up lots of affordable housing units.

    Yes, that would help a lot. The assumption behind my assertion is based upon what I have observed in Davis in the last 20 years (and not an abstract belief in the “free market”): the city relinquishes control of the construction of housing developers, and thus, finds itself at the mercy of prices created by many of the factors I mentioned when it comes to traditional single lot family houses.

    Unless one is going to overturn this system, I see no way to reduce prices and make homes more affordable, unless densities are increased, which is, I believe, beginning to happen elsewhere in the region where developers are being forced to accept the consequences of the credit crunch.

    So far, the credit crunch has not hit Davis, and will probably have minimal impact, because the 2005-2007 period did not create the overhang of home construction that one sees in West Sacramento and Woodland

    It is, however, possible that turmoil in the school district and public perception that it is no longer as superior to those nearby communities could have this sort of impact.

    –Ricahrd

  215. Richard

    However, I do think there is a way to accomplish the end you (and I) desire. That is to force UCD to step up to the plate and provide on-campus housing for the UC system-wide target of 42% of the student population. Right now they only provide housing for 25%. That 17% represents over 5,000 students who would vacate existing Davis housing. The net result would be a reduction in rental rates, as well as freeing up lots of affordable housing units.

    Yes, that would help a lot. The assumption behind my assertion is based upon what I have observed in Davis in the last 20 years (and not an abstract belief in the “free market”): the city relinquishes control of the construction of housing developers, and thus, finds itself at the mercy of prices created by many of the factors I mentioned when it comes to traditional single lot family houses.

    Unless one is going to overturn this system, I see no way to reduce prices and make homes more affordable, unless densities are increased, which is, I believe, beginning to happen elsewhere in the region where developers are being forced to accept the consequences of the credit crunch.

    So far, the credit crunch has not hit Davis, and will probably have minimal impact, because the 2005-2007 period did not create the overhang of home construction that one sees in West Sacramento and Woodland

    It is, however, possible that turmoil in the school district and public perception that it is no longer as superior to those nearby communities could have this sort of impact.

    –Ricahrd

  216. Richard

    However, I do think there is a way to accomplish the end you (and I) desire. That is to force UCD to step up to the plate and provide on-campus housing for the UC system-wide target of 42% of the student population. Right now they only provide housing for 25%. That 17% represents over 5,000 students who would vacate existing Davis housing. The net result would be a reduction in rental rates, as well as freeing up lots of affordable housing units.

    Yes, that would help a lot. The assumption behind my assertion is based upon what I have observed in Davis in the last 20 years (and not an abstract belief in the “free market”): the city relinquishes control of the construction of housing developers, and thus, finds itself at the mercy of prices created by many of the factors I mentioned when it comes to traditional single lot family houses.

    Unless one is going to overturn this system, I see no way to reduce prices and make homes more affordable, unless densities are increased, which is, I believe, beginning to happen elsewhere in the region where developers are being forced to accept the consequences of the credit crunch.

    So far, the credit crunch has not hit Davis, and will probably have minimal impact, because the 2005-2007 period did not create the overhang of home construction that one sees in West Sacramento and Woodland

    It is, however, possible that turmoil in the school district and public perception that it is no longer as superior to those nearby communities could have this sort of impact.

    –Ricahrd

  217. localdem

    Okay, someone take away Matt Williams’s statistics. I don’t come here for reasoned analysis based on facts. No, I come to the Vanguard to read reprints of Lamar’s misogynistic columns and pot shots at Don Saylor…

  218. localdem

    Okay, someone take away Matt Williams’s statistics. I don’t come here for reasoned analysis based on facts. No, I come to the Vanguard to read reprints of Lamar’s misogynistic columns and pot shots at Don Saylor…

  219. localdem

    Okay, someone take away Matt Williams’s statistics. I don’t come here for reasoned analysis based on facts. No, I come to the Vanguard to read reprints of Lamar’s misogynistic columns and pot shots at Don Saylor…

  220. localdem

    Okay, someone take away Matt Williams’s statistics. I don’t come here for reasoned analysis based on facts. No, I come to the Vanguard to read reprints of Lamar’s misogynistic columns and pot shots at Don Saylor…

  221. wdf

    “Richard said…

    It is, however, possible that turmoil in the school district and public perception that it is no longer as superior to those nearby communities could have this sort of impact.”

    Do you really think families are fleeing in droves, yet?

    I don’t. I think this all still looks like a temporary setback.

    See what really gets offered or cut in the schools when August/September rolls around.

  222. wdf

    “Richard said…

    It is, however, possible that turmoil in the school district and public perception that it is no longer as superior to those nearby communities could have this sort of impact.”

    Do you really think families are fleeing in droves, yet?

    I don’t. I think this all still looks like a temporary setback.

    See what really gets offered or cut in the schools when August/September rolls around.

  223. wdf

    “Richard said…

    It is, however, possible that turmoil in the school district and public perception that it is no longer as superior to those nearby communities could have this sort of impact.”

    Do you really think families are fleeing in droves, yet?

    I don’t. I think this all still looks like a temporary setback.

    See what really gets offered or cut in the schools when August/September rolls around.

  224. wdf

    “Richard said…

    It is, however, possible that turmoil in the school district and public perception that it is no longer as superior to those nearby communities could have this sort of impact.”

    Do you really think families are fleeing in droves, yet?

    I don’t. I think this all still looks like a temporary setback.

    See what really gets offered or cut in the schools when August/September rolls around.

  225. Another view

    A few years back, I tried to sell my house in Davis at the time east Davis was being built out. My house sat on the market for two years and never sold. The house across the street recently sold in less than a month – much smaller and riddled with termites. So I am wondering, Matt, if statistics tells the total story on housing demands. It seems to me when a big housing development is going in, it is difficult to sell homes in other parts of the city. That sort of thing might not show up statistically. What do you think?

    As for the criticisms of Don Saylor, Bob Dunning’s column appeared to be nothing more than Bob Dunning admitting he is biased in Don Saylor’s favor, and trying to excuse himself for the obvious. Have to civilly disagree with you on this one, Don Shor!

    Don Saylor’s attempts to be civil all of the sudden are silly at best. It doesn’t fool anyone. IMHO Don sticks his finger in the wind, and whichever way it blows he goes – unless a particular person contributed to his campaign and he has to take an actual stand on something.

  226. Another view

    A few years back, I tried to sell my house in Davis at the time east Davis was being built out. My house sat on the market for two years and never sold. The house across the street recently sold in less than a month – much smaller and riddled with termites. So I am wondering, Matt, if statistics tells the total story on housing demands. It seems to me when a big housing development is going in, it is difficult to sell homes in other parts of the city. That sort of thing might not show up statistically. What do you think?

    As for the criticisms of Don Saylor, Bob Dunning’s column appeared to be nothing more than Bob Dunning admitting he is biased in Don Saylor’s favor, and trying to excuse himself for the obvious. Have to civilly disagree with you on this one, Don Shor!

    Don Saylor’s attempts to be civil all of the sudden are silly at best. It doesn’t fool anyone. IMHO Don sticks his finger in the wind, and whichever way it blows he goes – unless a particular person contributed to his campaign and he has to take an actual stand on something.

  227. Another view

    A few years back, I tried to sell my house in Davis at the time east Davis was being built out. My house sat on the market for two years and never sold. The house across the street recently sold in less than a month – much smaller and riddled with termites. So I am wondering, Matt, if statistics tells the total story on housing demands. It seems to me when a big housing development is going in, it is difficult to sell homes in other parts of the city. That sort of thing might not show up statistically. What do you think?

    As for the criticisms of Don Saylor, Bob Dunning’s column appeared to be nothing more than Bob Dunning admitting he is biased in Don Saylor’s favor, and trying to excuse himself for the obvious. Have to civilly disagree with you on this one, Don Shor!

    Don Saylor’s attempts to be civil all of the sudden are silly at best. It doesn’t fool anyone. IMHO Don sticks his finger in the wind, and whichever way it blows he goes – unless a particular person contributed to his campaign and he has to take an actual stand on something.

  228. Another view

    A few years back, I tried to sell my house in Davis at the time east Davis was being built out. My house sat on the market for two years and never sold. The house across the street recently sold in less than a month – much smaller and riddled with termites. So I am wondering, Matt, if statistics tells the total story on housing demands. It seems to me when a big housing development is going in, it is difficult to sell homes in other parts of the city. That sort of thing might not show up statistically. What do you think?

    As for the criticisms of Don Saylor, Bob Dunning’s column appeared to be nothing more than Bob Dunning admitting he is biased in Don Saylor’s favor, and trying to excuse himself for the obvious. Have to civilly disagree with you on this one, Don Shor!

    Don Saylor’s attempts to be civil all of the sudden are silly at best. It doesn’t fool anyone. IMHO Don sticks his finger in the wind, and whichever way it blows he goes – unless a particular person contributed to his campaign and he has to take an actual stand on something.

  229. Matt Williams

    Another view said…

    A few years back, I tried to sell my house in Davis at the time east Davis was being built out. My house sat on the market for two years and never sold. The house across the street recently sold in less than a month – much smaller and riddled with termites. So I am wondering, Matt, if statistics tells the total story on housing demands. It seems to me when a big housing development is going in, it is difficult to sell homes in other parts of the city. That sort of thing might not show up statistically. What do you think?
    Good question. The simple answer is that unless a sale was transacted, your situation (and situations like it) would not be reflected in the stat. With that said, I think that there are always houses on the market that don’t sell for any number of reasons, so over time that should affect each year’s statistics somewhat evenly.

    Now, your question does prompt several questions. What was the time span when your house was listed? How many square feet did your listing agent(s) believe your house contains? What price per square foot does that calculate out to?

  230. Matt Williams

    Another view said…

    A few years back, I tried to sell my house in Davis at the time east Davis was being built out. My house sat on the market for two years and never sold. The house across the street recently sold in less than a month – much smaller and riddled with termites. So I am wondering, Matt, if statistics tells the total story on housing demands. It seems to me when a big housing development is going in, it is difficult to sell homes in other parts of the city. That sort of thing might not show up statistically. What do you think?
    Good question. The simple answer is that unless a sale was transacted, your situation (and situations like it) would not be reflected in the stat. With that said, I think that there are always houses on the market that don’t sell for any number of reasons, so over time that should affect each year’s statistics somewhat evenly.

    Now, your question does prompt several questions. What was the time span when your house was listed? How many square feet did your listing agent(s) believe your house contains? What price per square foot does that calculate out to?

  231. Matt Williams

    Another view said…

    A few years back, I tried to sell my house in Davis at the time east Davis was being built out. My house sat on the market for two years and never sold. The house across the street recently sold in less than a month – much smaller and riddled with termites. So I am wondering, Matt, if statistics tells the total story on housing demands. It seems to me when a big housing development is going in, it is difficult to sell homes in other parts of the city. That sort of thing might not show up statistically. What do you think?
    Good question. The simple answer is that unless a sale was transacted, your situation (and situations like it) would not be reflected in the stat. With that said, I think that there are always houses on the market that don’t sell for any number of reasons, so over time that should affect each year’s statistics somewhat evenly.

    Now, your question does prompt several questions. What was the time span when your house was listed? How many square feet did your listing agent(s) believe your house contains? What price per square foot does that calculate out to?

  232. Matt Williams

    Another view said…

    A few years back, I tried to sell my house in Davis at the time east Davis was being built out. My house sat on the market for two years and never sold. The house across the street recently sold in less than a month – much smaller and riddled with termites. So I am wondering, Matt, if statistics tells the total story on housing demands. It seems to me when a big housing development is going in, it is difficult to sell homes in other parts of the city. That sort of thing might not show up statistically. What do you think?
    Good question. The simple answer is that unless a sale was transacted, your situation (and situations like it) would not be reflected in the stat. With that said, I think that there are always houses on the market that don’t sell for any number of reasons, so over time that should affect each year’s statistics somewhat evenly.

    Now, your question does prompt several questions. What was the time span when your house was listed? How many square feet did your listing agent(s) believe your house contains? What price per square foot does that calculate out to?

  233. Black Bart

    Another View has it right. Back in the 90’s when there was a lot of new construction it helped keep the lid on prices. Richard is right as well. As long as people like Saylor give developers everything they want the housing that gets built won’t be for anyone but the rich although that might change now that the bubble has burst because you would think developers don’t want to sit on an inventory where there is no market. As for Matt why do you struggle with this internal external demand thing? Its a regional market and people should be able to live where they want. All this targeting nonsense is so exclusionary I don’t know how you can talk about it with a straight face. You guys talk about my supply and demand idea’s being naive but at least I want to build enough for everyone who wants to be here without regard for who they are. As for the university they have gotten nothing but resistance on West Village so to argue that they don’t want to do their part is attacking the victim. Yes let the university build housing for the students, staff and faculty. If that frees up enough housing in town fine but then build more and more and more until the premium for living in Davis becomes marginalized no matter what elasticity of demand exists regionally.

  234. Black Bart

    Another View has it right. Back in the 90’s when there was a lot of new construction it helped keep the lid on prices. Richard is right as well. As long as people like Saylor give developers everything they want the housing that gets built won’t be for anyone but the rich although that might change now that the bubble has burst because you would think developers don’t want to sit on an inventory where there is no market. As for Matt why do you struggle with this internal external demand thing? Its a regional market and people should be able to live where they want. All this targeting nonsense is so exclusionary I don’t know how you can talk about it with a straight face. You guys talk about my supply and demand idea’s being naive but at least I want to build enough for everyone who wants to be here without regard for who they are. As for the university they have gotten nothing but resistance on West Village so to argue that they don’t want to do their part is attacking the victim. Yes let the university build housing for the students, staff and faculty. If that frees up enough housing in town fine but then build more and more and more until the premium for living in Davis becomes marginalized no matter what elasticity of demand exists regionally.

  235. Black Bart

    Another View has it right. Back in the 90’s when there was a lot of new construction it helped keep the lid on prices. Richard is right as well. As long as people like Saylor give developers everything they want the housing that gets built won’t be for anyone but the rich although that might change now that the bubble has burst because you would think developers don’t want to sit on an inventory where there is no market. As for Matt why do you struggle with this internal external demand thing? Its a regional market and people should be able to live where they want. All this targeting nonsense is so exclusionary I don’t know how you can talk about it with a straight face. You guys talk about my supply and demand idea’s being naive but at least I want to build enough for everyone who wants to be here without regard for who they are. As for the university they have gotten nothing but resistance on West Village so to argue that they don’t want to do their part is attacking the victim. Yes let the university build housing for the students, staff and faculty. If that frees up enough housing in town fine but then build more and more and more until the premium for living in Davis becomes marginalized no matter what elasticity of demand exists regionally.

  236. Black Bart

    Another View has it right. Back in the 90’s when there was a lot of new construction it helped keep the lid on prices. Richard is right as well. As long as people like Saylor give developers everything they want the housing that gets built won’t be for anyone but the rich although that might change now that the bubble has burst because you would think developers don’t want to sit on an inventory where there is no market. As for Matt why do you struggle with this internal external demand thing? Its a regional market and people should be able to live where they want. All this targeting nonsense is so exclusionary I don’t know how you can talk about it with a straight face. You guys talk about my supply and demand idea’s being naive but at least I want to build enough for everyone who wants to be here without regard for who they are. As for the university they have gotten nothing but resistance on West Village so to argue that they don’t want to do their part is attacking the victim. Yes let the university build housing for the students, staff and faculty. If that frees up enough housing in town fine but then build more and more and more until the premium for living in Davis becomes marginalized no matter what elasticity of demand exists regionally.

  237. Richard

    Back in the 90’s when there was a lot of new construction it helped keep the lid on prices.

    Yes, but I suspect that this is yet another example of your earlier linear simple/demand model that reduces affordability in Davis down to one factor, and a dubious one at that.

    Yes, prices were stable, and may have even dropped in the early to mid-1990s. Did this make them more affordable? Doubtful, as most people, in the middle of one of the worst recessions in recent memory, couldn’t afford houses of any kind. Prices per square foot declined across the region because of the lack of buyers, so the question becomes, did Davis houses become more inexpensive, more expensive or hold their own compared to regional alternatives?

    Or, to put it differently, the fact that there was a “lid” on prices tells us nothing as to whether homes were more or less affordable in Davis at that time. Price, by itself, tells us nothing absent a comparison.

    My guess is that they were more affordable then than now, maybe only marginally so, because of the transformation of homes into vehicles for financial speculation.

    It would be worth looking at the number of homes built in Davis as a percentage of all residences there since 1990 and compare it to the increase in population growth in the Central Valley. Contrary to the implications of your posts on the subject, a lot of homes were built in Davis over that period, although admittedly not very evenly.

    That might be the starting point for a good examination as to whether the lack of home construction has impacted affordability, or whether a more complex matrix of factors beyond introductory Economics 1A had something to do with it.

    –Richard

  238. Richard

    Back in the 90’s when there was a lot of new construction it helped keep the lid on prices.

    Yes, but I suspect that this is yet another example of your earlier linear simple/demand model that reduces affordability in Davis down to one factor, and a dubious one at that.

    Yes, prices were stable, and may have even dropped in the early to mid-1990s. Did this make them more affordable? Doubtful, as most people, in the middle of one of the worst recessions in recent memory, couldn’t afford houses of any kind. Prices per square foot declined across the region because of the lack of buyers, so the question becomes, did Davis houses become more inexpensive, more expensive or hold their own compared to regional alternatives?

    Or, to put it differently, the fact that there was a “lid” on prices tells us nothing as to whether homes were more or less affordable in Davis at that time. Price, by itself, tells us nothing absent a comparison.

    My guess is that they were more affordable then than now, maybe only marginally so, because of the transformation of homes into vehicles for financial speculation.

    It would be worth looking at the number of homes built in Davis as a percentage of all residences there since 1990 and compare it to the increase in population growth in the Central Valley. Contrary to the implications of your posts on the subject, a lot of homes were built in Davis over that period, although admittedly not very evenly.

    That might be the starting point for a good examination as to whether the lack of home construction has impacted affordability, or whether a more complex matrix of factors beyond introductory Economics 1A had something to do with it.

    –Richard

  239. Richard

    Back in the 90’s when there was a lot of new construction it helped keep the lid on prices.

    Yes, but I suspect that this is yet another example of your earlier linear simple/demand model that reduces affordability in Davis down to one factor, and a dubious one at that.

    Yes, prices were stable, and may have even dropped in the early to mid-1990s. Did this make them more affordable? Doubtful, as most people, in the middle of one of the worst recessions in recent memory, couldn’t afford houses of any kind. Prices per square foot declined across the region because of the lack of buyers, so the question becomes, did Davis houses become more inexpensive, more expensive or hold their own compared to regional alternatives?

    Or, to put it differently, the fact that there was a “lid” on prices tells us nothing as to whether homes were more or less affordable in Davis at that time. Price, by itself, tells us nothing absent a comparison.

    My guess is that they were more affordable then than now, maybe only marginally so, because of the transformation of homes into vehicles for financial speculation.

    It would be worth looking at the number of homes built in Davis as a percentage of all residences there since 1990 and compare it to the increase in population growth in the Central Valley. Contrary to the implications of your posts on the subject, a lot of homes were built in Davis over that period, although admittedly not very evenly.

    That might be the starting point for a good examination as to whether the lack of home construction has impacted affordability, or whether a more complex matrix of factors beyond introductory Economics 1A had something to do with it.

    –Richard

  240. Richard

    Back in the 90’s when there was a lot of new construction it helped keep the lid on prices.

    Yes, but I suspect that this is yet another example of your earlier linear simple/demand model that reduces affordability in Davis down to one factor, and a dubious one at that.

    Yes, prices were stable, and may have even dropped in the early to mid-1990s. Did this make them more affordable? Doubtful, as most people, in the middle of one of the worst recessions in recent memory, couldn’t afford houses of any kind. Prices per square foot declined across the region because of the lack of buyers, so the question becomes, did Davis houses become more inexpensive, more expensive or hold their own compared to regional alternatives?

    Or, to put it differently, the fact that there was a “lid” on prices tells us nothing as to whether homes were more or less affordable in Davis at that time. Price, by itself, tells us nothing absent a comparison.

    My guess is that they were more affordable then than now, maybe only marginally so, because of the transformation of homes into vehicles for financial speculation.

    It would be worth looking at the number of homes built in Davis as a percentage of all residences there since 1990 and compare it to the increase in population growth in the Central Valley. Contrary to the implications of your posts on the subject, a lot of homes were built in Davis over that period, although admittedly not very evenly.

    That might be the starting point for a good examination as to whether the lack of home construction has impacted affordability, or whether a more complex matrix of factors beyond introductory Economics 1A had something to do with it.

    –Richard

  241. don shor

    “….my view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities…”

    That is true. Apartments accomplish that. Build more apartments for students to house the discrepancy between UCD’s projected increase of students and the number UCD will house, and there will be more affordable housing.
    A city council that is serious about achieving affordable housing will encourage the construction of more apartments.

  242. don shor

    “….my view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities…”

    That is true. Apartments accomplish that. Build more apartments for students to house the discrepancy between UCD’s projected increase of students and the number UCD will house, and there will be more affordable housing.
    A city council that is serious about achieving affordable housing will encourage the construction of more apartments.

  243. don shor

    “….my view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities…”

    That is true. Apartments accomplish that. Build more apartments for students to house the discrepancy between UCD’s projected increase of students and the number UCD will house, and there will be more affordable housing.
    A city council that is serious about achieving affordable housing will encourage the construction of more apartments.

  244. don shor

    “….my view, that I have expressed here many times, is that Davis can only create affordable housing by radically increasing densities…”

    That is true. Apartments accomplish that. Build more apartments for students to house the discrepancy between UCD’s projected increase of students and the number UCD will house, and there will be more affordable housing.
    A city council that is serious about achieving affordable housing will encourage the construction of more apartments.

  245. Diogenes

    Matt Williams asked that I reply to some questions regarding a post that I made earlier today.

    Richard Estes has made several helpful points in his posts and answered some of Matt’s questions. The point of my post was that you can’t look simply at what has happened in Davis and make a comment about elasticity or affordability – these are relative measures. Matt apparently believes that Davis has experienced a reasonable amount of new development, yet prices have increased substantially, and therefore, housing prices in Davis do not respond to supply, because there must be too much demand. I suggest that this statement is not necessarily true — one needs to compare housing supply growth and price growth in other areas in the region, and then determine how Davis stacks up.

    Furthermore, I submit that any additional supply of new housing in Davis is helpful in keeping home prices lower. We can’t know how much higher housing prices in Davis would be today if there had been less development in the past few years, but I am sure that housing prices are lower than they otherwise would have been, because there has been some new housing growth. I am also confident that housing prices would be even lower had there been more development in Davis.

    Finally, Matt asks me to clarify the point of my comment regarding San Francisco, SLO, Santa Barbara etc. Each of those cities, and Davis, are low growth, high demand cities. Contrary to the opinon of many Davisites, we are not unique – we are just one of several low growth, high demand cities. In each city, home prices have increased significantly. There are resulting impacts on the communities – average age increases, young families are forced to other locales, socio- economic diversity decreases, public school systems suffer as there are relatively fewer parents of school age children – the list can go on.

    All together, Davis is not immune to general economic truths – supply and demand must come into equilibrium, and price is generally the mechanism to bring supply demand into balance. CA population, and this region’s population, continue to increase significantly. Davis, together with many other communities, are attrractive communities for various reasons. If housing supply doesn’t match the demand, then prices will increase. It really is that simple.

  246. Diogenes

    Matt Williams asked that I reply to some questions regarding a post that I made earlier today.

    Richard Estes has made several helpful points in his posts and answered some of Matt’s questions. The point of my post was that you can’t look simply at what has happened in Davis and make a comment about elasticity or affordability – these are relative measures. Matt apparently believes that Davis has experienced a reasonable amount of new development, yet prices have increased substantially, and therefore, housing prices in Davis do not respond to supply, because there must be too much demand. I suggest that this statement is not necessarily true — one needs to compare housing supply growth and price growth in other areas in the region, and then determine how Davis stacks up.

    Furthermore, I submit that any additional supply of new housing in Davis is helpful in keeping home prices lower. We can’t know how much higher housing prices in Davis would be today if there had been less development in the past few years, but I am sure that housing prices are lower than they otherwise would have been, because there has been some new housing growth. I am also confident that housing prices would be even lower had there been more development in Davis.

    Finally, Matt asks me to clarify the point of my comment regarding San Francisco, SLO, Santa Barbara etc. Each of those cities, and Davis, are low growth, high demand cities. Contrary to the opinon of many Davisites, we are not unique – we are just one of several low growth, high demand cities. In each city, home prices have increased significantly. There are resulting impacts on the communities – average age increases, young families are forced to other locales, socio- economic diversity decreases, public school systems suffer as there are relatively fewer parents of school age children – the list can go on.

    All together, Davis is not immune to general economic truths – supply and demand must come into equilibrium, and price is generally the mechanism to bring supply demand into balance. CA population, and this region’s population, continue to increase significantly. Davis, together with many other communities, are attrractive communities for various reasons. If housing supply doesn’t match the demand, then prices will increase. It really is that simple.

  247. Diogenes

    Matt Williams asked that I reply to some questions regarding a post that I made earlier today.

    Richard Estes has made several helpful points in his posts and answered some of Matt’s questions. The point of my post was that you can’t look simply at what has happened in Davis and make a comment about elasticity or affordability – these are relative measures. Matt apparently believes that Davis has experienced a reasonable amount of new development, yet prices have increased substantially, and therefore, housing prices in Davis do not respond to supply, because there must be too much demand. I suggest that this statement is not necessarily true — one needs to compare housing supply growth and price growth in other areas in the region, and then determine how Davis stacks up.

    Furthermore, I submit that any additional supply of new housing in Davis is helpful in keeping home prices lower. We can’t know how much higher housing prices in Davis would be today if there had been less development in the past few years, but I am sure that housing prices are lower than they otherwise would have been, because there has been some new housing growth. I am also confident that housing prices would be even lower had there been more development in Davis.

    Finally, Matt asks me to clarify the point of my comment regarding San Francisco, SLO, Santa Barbara etc. Each of those cities, and Davis, are low growth, high demand cities. Contrary to the opinon of many Davisites, we are not unique – we are just one of several low growth, high demand cities. In each city, home prices have increased significantly. There are resulting impacts on the communities – average age increases, young families are forced to other locales, socio- economic diversity decreases, public school systems suffer as there are relatively fewer parents of school age children – the list can go on.

    All together, Davis is not immune to general economic truths – supply and demand must come into equilibrium, and price is generally the mechanism to bring supply demand into balance. CA population, and this region’s population, continue to increase significantly. Davis, together with many other communities, are attrractive communities for various reasons. If housing supply doesn’t match the demand, then prices will increase. It really is that simple.

  248. Diogenes

    Matt Williams asked that I reply to some questions regarding a post that I made earlier today.

    Richard Estes has made several helpful points in his posts and answered some of Matt’s questions. The point of my post was that you can’t look simply at what has happened in Davis and make a comment about elasticity or affordability – these are relative measures. Matt apparently believes that Davis has experienced a reasonable amount of new development, yet prices have increased substantially, and therefore, housing prices in Davis do not respond to supply, because there must be too much demand. I suggest that this statement is not necessarily true — one needs to compare housing supply growth and price growth in other areas in the region, and then determine how Davis stacks up.

    Furthermore, I submit that any additional supply of new housing in Davis is helpful in keeping home prices lower. We can’t know how much higher housing prices in Davis would be today if there had been less development in the past few years, but I am sure that housing prices are lower than they otherwise would have been, because there has been some new housing growth. I am also confident that housing prices would be even lower had there been more development in Davis.

    Finally, Matt asks me to clarify the point of my comment regarding San Francisco, SLO, Santa Barbara etc. Each of those cities, and Davis, are low growth, high demand cities. Contrary to the opinon of many Davisites, we are not unique – we are just one of several low growth, high demand cities. In each city, home prices have increased significantly. There are resulting impacts on the communities – average age increases, young families are forced to other locales, socio- economic diversity decreases, public school systems suffer as there are relatively fewer parents of school age children – the list can go on.

    All together, Davis is not immune to general economic truths – supply and demand must come into equilibrium, and price is generally the mechanism to bring supply demand into balance. CA population, and this region’s population, continue to increase significantly. Davis, together with many other communities, are attrractive communities for various reasons. If housing supply doesn’t match the demand, then prices will increase. It really is that simple.

  249. Vincente

    While I think Diogenes makes good points here, I think he misses an essential point, Davis will remain overly inflated in housing prices unless its desirability is declined. That would be self-defeating.

  250. Vincente

    While I think Diogenes makes good points here, I think he misses an essential point, Davis will remain overly inflated in housing prices unless its desirability is declined. That would be self-defeating.

  251. Vincente

    While I think Diogenes makes good points here, I think he misses an essential point, Davis will remain overly inflated in housing prices unless its desirability is declined. That would be self-defeating.

  252. Vincente

    While I think Diogenes makes good points here, I think he misses an essential point, Davis will remain overly inflated in housing prices unless its desirability is declined. That would be self-defeating.

  253. Richard

    Contrary to the opinon of many Davisites, we are not unique – we are just one of several low growth, high demand cities. In each city, home prices have increased significantly.

    Is this, in fact, true?

    Certainly, Davis has not constructed as many homes as areas like Elk Grove and Natomas, but that may not be an accurate measure as to whether Davis has actually experienced low growth over the last decade or so.

    Homes in places like Elk Grove, Natomas and Lincoln were purchased by frantic buyers in the 2003-2007 period because, as consequence of speculation, they were lead to believe that they would otherwise never get them

    Once the speculative bubble burst, so did the demand.

    So, the question becomes, how does the rate of Davis home construction compare to population growth within Yolo County and the region over various time frames.

  254. Richard

    Contrary to the opinon of many Davisites, we are not unique – we are just one of several low growth, high demand cities. In each city, home prices have increased significantly.

    Is this, in fact, true?

    Certainly, Davis has not constructed as many homes as areas like Elk Grove and Natomas, but that may not be an accurate measure as to whether Davis has actually experienced low growth over the last decade or so.

    Homes in places like Elk Grove, Natomas and Lincoln were purchased by frantic buyers in the 2003-2007 period because, as consequence of speculation, they were lead to believe that they would otherwise never get them

    Once the speculative bubble burst, so did the demand.

    So, the question becomes, how does the rate of Davis home construction compare to population growth within Yolo County and the region over various time frames.

  255. Richard

    Contrary to the opinon of many Davisites, we are not unique – we are just one of several low growth, high demand cities. In each city, home prices have increased significantly.

    Is this, in fact, true?

    Certainly, Davis has not constructed as many homes as areas like Elk Grove and Natomas, but that may not be an accurate measure as to whether Davis has actually experienced low growth over the last decade or so.

    Homes in places like Elk Grove, Natomas and Lincoln were purchased by frantic buyers in the 2003-2007 period because, as consequence of speculation, they were lead to believe that they would otherwise never get them

    Once the speculative bubble burst, so did the demand.

    So, the question becomes, how does the rate of Davis home construction compare to population growth within Yolo County and the region over various time frames.

  256. Richard

    Contrary to the opinon of many Davisites, we are not unique – we are just one of several low growth, high demand cities. In each city, home prices have increased significantly.

    Is this, in fact, true?

    Certainly, Davis has not constructed as many homes as areas like Elk Grove and Natomas, but that may not be an accurate measure as to whether Davis has actually experienced low growth over the last decade or so.

    Homes in places like Elk Grove, Natomas and Lincoln were purchased by frantic buyers in the 2003-2007 period because, as consequence of speculation, they were lead to believe that they would otherwise never get them

    Once the speculative bubble burst, so did the demand.

    So, the question becomes, how does the rate of Davis home construction compare to population growth within Yolo County and the region over various time frames.

  257. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    As for Matt why do you struggle with this internal external demand thing? Its a regional market and people should be able to live where they want. All this targeting nonsense is so exclusionary I don’t know how you can talk about it with a straight face. You guys talk about my supply and demand idea’s being naive but at least I want to build enough for everyone who wants to be here without regard for who they are.

    Bart, the answer to your question is simple. If Davis accomodated all that demand it would 1) would have a population approaching [or exceeding] 200,000, 2) would lose all its current character and become just another Bay Area suburban city, and 3) would transform thousands of acres of prime farmland into housing tracts.

    Is that what you want?

    One other question, do you have children? Based on your answer I will ask you a follow up question.

  258. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    As for Matt why do you struggle with this internal external demand thing? Its a regional market and people should be able to live where they want. All this targeting nonsense is so exclusionary I don’t know how you can talk about it with a straight face. You guys talk about my supply and demand idea’s being naive but at least I want to build enough for everyone who wants to be here without regard for who they are.

    Bart, the answer to your question is simple. If Davis accomodated all that demand it would 1) would have a population approaching [or exceeding] 200,000, 2) would lose all its current character and become just another Bay Area suburban city, and 3) would transform thousands of acres of prime farmland into housing tracts.

    Is that what you want?

    One other question, do you have children? Based on your answer I will ask you a follow up question.

  259. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    As for Matt why do you struggle with this internal external demand thing? Its a regional market and people should be able to live where they want. All this targeting nonsense is so exclusionary I don’t know how you can talk about it with a straight face. You guys talk about my supply and demand idea’s being naive but at least I want to build enough for everyone who wants to be here without regard for who they are.

    Bart, the answer to your question is simple. If Davis accomodated all that demand it would 1) would have a population approaching [or exceeding] 200,000, 2) would lose all its current character and become just another Bay Area suburban city, and 3) would transform thousands of acres of prime farmland into housing tracts.

    Is that what you want?

    One other question, do you have children? Based on your answer I will ask you a follow up question.

  260. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    As for Matt why do you struggle with this internal external demand thing? Its a regional market and people should be able to live where they want. All this targeting nonsense is so exclusionary I don’t know how you can talk about it with a straight face. You guys talk about my supply and demand idea’s being naive but at least I want to build enough for everyone who wants to be here without regard for who they are.

    Bart, the answer to your question is simple. If Davis accomodated all that demand it would 1) would have a population approaching [or exceeding] 200,000, 2) would lose all its current character and become just another Bay Area suburban city, and 3) would transform thousands of acres of prime farmland into housing tracts.

    Is that what you want?

    One other question, do you have children? Based on your answer I will ask you a follow up question.

  261. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    As for the university they have gotten nothing but resistance on West Village so to argue that they don’t want to do their part is attacking the victim. Yes let the university build housing for the students, staff and faculty. If that frees up enough housing in town fine but then build more and more and more until the premium for living in Davis becomes marginalized no matter what elasticity of demand exists regionally.
    West Village received significant opposition in only one area, its conversion of prime agricultural land to housing.

    I didn’t oppose West Village personally, because given the fact that Davis is virtually surrounded by prime farmland, there are always going to be trade-offs in any decision to add housing here. With that said, I would oppose a UCD decision to add another project like West Village. Why? Because what is really needed from UCD is housing on-campus that will result in a freeing up of affordable housing units in Davis currently occupied by students. Bottom-line, that is high-rise domitory space on the core UCD campus. If UCD provides that they will 1) increase core campus vitality, 2) bring more students closer to the Downtown shopping area, 3) reduce the proportion of UCD students who have a car, 4) reduce UCD’s and Davis’ carbon footprint, and 5) convert absolutely zero acres of prime farmland.

  262. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    As for the university they have gotten nothing but resistance on West Village so to argue that they don’t want to do their part is attacking the victim. Yes let the university build housing for the students, staff and faculty. If that frees up enough housing in town fine but then build more and more and more until the premium for living in Davis becomes marginalized no matter what elasticity of demand exists regionally.
    West Village received significant opposition in only one area, its conversion of prime agricultural land to housing.

    I didn’t oppose West Village personally, because given the fact that Davis is virtually surrounded by prime farmland, there are always going to be trade-offs in any decision to add housing here. With that said, I would oppose a UCD decision to add another project like West Village. Why? Because what is really needed from UCD is housing on-campus that will result in a freeing up of affordable housing units in Davis currently occupied by students. Bottom-line, that is high-rise domitory space on the core UCD campus. If UCD provides that they will 1) increase core campus vitality, 2) bring more students closer to the Downtown shopping area, 3) reduce the proportion of UCD students who have a car, 4) reduce UCD’s and Davis’ carbon footprint, and 5) convert absolutely zero acres of prime farmland.

  263. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    As for the university they have gotten nothing but resistance on West Village so to argue that they don’t want to do their part is attacking the victim. Yes let the university build housing for the students, staff and faculty. If that frees up enough housing in town fine but then build more and more and more until the premium for living in Davis becomes marginalized no matter what elasticity of demand exists regionally.
    West Village received significant opposition in only one area, its conversion of prime agricultural land to housing.

    I didn’t oppose West Village personally, because given the fact that Davis is virtually surrounded by prime farmland, there are always going to be trade-offs in any decision to add housing here. With that said, I would oppose a UCD decision to add another project like West Village. Why? Because what is really needed from UCD is housing on-campus that will result in a freeing up of affordable housing units in Davis currently occupied by students. Bottom-line, that is high-rise domitory space on the core UCD campus. If UCD provides that they will 1) increase core campus vitality, 2) bring more students closer to the Downtown shopping area, 3) reduce the proportion of UCD students who have a car, 4) reduce UCD’s and Davis’ carbon footprint, and 5) convert absolutely zero acres of prime farmland.

  264. Matt Williams

    Black Bart said…

    As for the university they have gotten nothing but resistance on West Village so to argue that they don’t want to do their part is attacking the victim. Yes let the university build housing for the students, staff and faculty. If that frees up enough housing in town fine but then build more and more and more until the premium for living in Davis becomes marginalized no matter what elasticity of demand exists regionally.
    West Village received significant opposition in only one area, its conversion of prime agricultural land to housing.

    I didn’t oppose West Village personally, because given the fact that Davis is virtually surrounded by prime farmland, there are always going to be trade-offs in any decision to add housing here. With that said, I would oppose a UCD decision to add another project like West Village. Why? Because what is really needed from UCD is housing on-campus that will result in a freeing up of affordable housing units in Davis currently occupied by students. Bottom-line, that is high-rise domitory space on the core UCD campus. If UCD provides that they will 1) increase core campus vitality, 2) bring more students closer to the Downtown shopping area, 3) reduce the proportion of UCD students who have a car, 4) reduce UCD’s and Davis’ carbon footprint, and 5) convert absolutely zero acres of prime farmland.

  265. Black Bart

    Yeah Matt open the floodgates, fill the university, make it cheap for people to live here and go to school, that should be the mission of Davis. Davis will never be just another town unless every town in California has a University of California campus, one of the nations premier land grant universities. The mission of this town should not be to preserve ag land or a downtown commercial district it should be to be part of the educational engine of California. In fact, an extension of your logic about high rise housing would be that all the downtown housing that has been turned into commercial space should move to make way for more housing. Why don’t we build high rises for businesses in downtown and turn all those houses back into houses? Why are you so quick to tell students how they should live? Why not tell businesses as well? Or more honestly why not build lots of housing on all this open land while continuing to do ag reasearch so that we more than make up for the lost production space through innovation? The best return on investments are in research and education lets let Davis grow to meet those needs!

    Additionally this nonsense about carbon footprints is just crap.Remember in thermodynamiscs it is all about how you define the system. If people in this town were worried about C footprints they would build enough housing so that all the people who communte to UC Davis could live in Davis instead of the surrounding communities. Davis’ no growth policies increase CO2 production by creating defacto leap frog development in places like Spring Lake or Natomas.

  266. Black Bart

    Yeah Matt open the floodgates, fill the university, make it cheap for people to live here and go to school, that should be the mission of Davis. Davis will never be just another town unless every town in California has a University of California campus, one of the nations premier land grant universities. The mission of this town should not be to preserve ag land or a downtown commercial district it should be to be part of the educational engine of California. In fact, an extension of your logic about high rise housing would be that all the downtown housing that has been turned into commercial space should move to make way for more housing. Why don’t we build high rises for businesses in downtown and turn all those houses back into houses? Why are you so quick to tell students how they should live? Why not tell businesses as well? Or more honestly why not build lots of housing on all this open land while continuing to do ag reasearch so that we more than make up for the lost production space through innovation? The best return on investments are in research and education lets let Davis grow to meet those needs!

    Additionally this nonsense about carbon footprints is just crap.Remember in thermodynamiscs it is all about how you define the system. If people in this town were worried about C footprints they would build enough housing so that all the people who communte to UC Davis could live in Davis instead of the surrounding communities. Davis’ no growth policies increase CO2 production by creating defacto leap frog development in places like Spring Lake or Natomas.

  267. Black Bart

    Yeah Matt open the floodgates, fill the university, make it cheap for people to live here and go to school, that should be the mission of Davis. Davis will never be just another town unless every town in California has a University of California campus, one of the nations premier land grant universities. The mission of this town should not be to preserve ag land or a downtown commercial district it should be to be part of the educational engine of California. In fact, an extension of your logic about high rise housing would be that all the downtown housing that has been turned into commercial space should move to make way for more housing. Why don’t we build high rises for businesses in downtown and turn all those houses back into houses? Why are you so quick to tell students how they should live? Why not tell businesses as well? Or more honestly why not build lots of housing on all this open land while continuing to do ag reasearch so that we more than make up for the lost production space through innovation? The best return on investments are in research and education lets let Davis grow to meet those needs!

    Additionally this nonsense about carbon footprints is just crap.Remember in thermodynamiscs it is all about how you define the system. If people in this town were worried about C footprints they would build enough housing so that all the people who communte to UC Davis could live in Davis instead of the surrounding communities. Davis’ no growth policies increase CO2 production by creating defacto leap frog development in places like Spring Lake or Natomas.

  268. Black Bart

    Yeah Matt open the floodgates, fill the university, make it cheap for people to live here and go to school, that should be the mission of Davis. Davis will never be just another town unless every town in California has a University of California campus, one of the nations premier land grant universities. The mission of this town should not be to preserve ag land or a downtown commercial district it should be to be part of the educational engine of California. In fact, an extension of your logic about high rise housing would be that all the downtown housing that has been turned into commercial space should move to make way for more housing. Why don’t we build high rises for businesses in downtown and turn all those houses back into houses? Why are you so quick to tell students how they should live? Why not tell businesses as well? Or more honestly why not build lots of housing on all this open land while continuing to do ag reasearch so that we more than make up for the lost production space through innovation? The best return on investments are in research and education lets let Davis grow to meet those needs!

    Additionally this nonsense about carbon footprints is just crap.Remember in thermodynamiscs it is all about how you define the system. If people in this town were worried about C footprints they would build enough housing so that all the people who communte to UC Davis could live in Davis instead of the surrounding communities. Davis’ no growth policies increase CO2 production by creating defacto leap frog development in places like Spring Lake or Natomas.

  269. Richard

    Yeah Matt open the floodgates, fill the university, make it cheap for people to live here and go to school, that should be the mission of Davis. Davis will never be just another town unless every town in California has a University of California campus, one of the nations premier land grant universities. The mission of this town should not be to preserve ag land or a downtown commercial district it should be to be part of the educational engine of California. . . .

    Ah, yes, now I understand, a fellow Chavista!

    The only thing that you forgot to mention is that all agricultural land in Yolo County should be seized and turned over to campesino cooperatives.

    As long as the growers do not hire Colombian paramilitaries to serve as death squads, we will make the revolution.

    –Richard Estes

  270. Richard

    Yeah Matt open the floodgates, fill the university, make it cheap for people to live here and go to school, that should be the mission of Davis. Davis will never be just another town unless every town in California has a University of California campus, one of the nations premier land grant universities. The mission of this town should not be to preserve ag land or a downtown commercial district it should be to be part of the educational engine of California. . . .

    Ah, yes, now I understand, a fellow Chavista!

    The only thing that you forgot to mention is that all agricultural land in Yolo County should be seized and turned over to campesino cooperatives.

    As long as the growers do not hire Colombian paramilitaries to serve as death squads, we will make the revolution.

    –Richard Estes

  271. Richard

    Yeah Matt open the floodgates, fill the university, make it cheap for people to live here and go to school, that should be the mission of Davis. Davis will never be just another town unless every town in California has a University of California campus, one of the nations premier land grant universities. The mission of this town should not be to preserve ag land or a downtown commercial district it should be to be part of the educational engine of California. . . .

    Ah, yes, now I understand, a fellow Chavista!

    The only thing that you forgot to mention is that all agricultural land in Yolo County should be seized and turned over to campesino cooperatives.

    As long as the growers do not hire Colombian paramilitaries to serve as death squads, we will make the revolution.

    –Richard Estes

  272. Richard

    Yeah Matt open the floodgates, fill the university, make it cheap for people to live here and go to school, that should be the mission of Davis. Davis will never be just another town unless every town in California has a University of California campus, one of the nations premier land grant universities. The mission of this town should not be to preserve ag land or a downtown commercial district it should be to be part of the educational engine of California. . . .

    Ah, yes, now I understand, a fellow Chavista!

    The only thing that you forgot to mention is that all agricultural land in Yolo County should be seized and turned over to campesino cooperatives.

    As long as the growers do not hire Colombian paramilitaries to serve as death squads, we will make the revolution.

    –Richard Estes

  273. Black Bart

    Sorry Richard, I said nothing about seizing property. I have no problem with developers making money as long as their developments meet the needs of a diverse population. I do think one of the unstated problems in Davis is that many people resent that developers make lots of money by adding value to property.

    Personally this doesn’t bother me unless they try to maximize their profit regardless of the needs of the community. This was the problem with Covell Village and the City Council members who voted for it, they didn’t make the developers build what the community needed, instead giving the developers everything they wanted.

  274. Black Bart

    Sorry Richard, I said nothing about seizing property. I have no problem with developers making money as long as their developments meet the needs of a diverse population. I do think one of the unstated problems in Davis is that many people resent that developers make lots of money by adding value to property.

    Personally this doesn’t bother me unless they try to maximize their profit regardless of the needs of the community. This was the problem with Covell Village and the City Council members who voted for it, they didn’t make the developers build what the community needed, instead giving the developers everything they wanted.

  275. Black Bart

    Sorry Richard, I said nothing about seizing property. I have no problem with developers making money as long as their developments meet the needs of a diverse population. I do think one of the unstated problems in Davis is that many people resent that developers make lots of money by adding value to property.

    Personally this doesn’t bother me unless they try to maximize their profit regardless of the needs of the community. This was the problem with Covell Village and the City Council members who voted for it, they didn’t make the developers build what the community needed, instead giving the developers everything they wanted.

  276. Black Bart

    Sorry Richard, I said nothing about seizing property. I have no problem with developers making money as long as their developments meet the needs of a diverse population. I do think one of the unstated problems in Davis is that many people resent that developers make lots of money by adding value to property.

    Personally this doesn’t bother me unless they try to maximize their profit regardless of the needs of the community. This was the problem with Covell Village and the City Council members who voted for it, they didn’t make the developers build what the community needed, instead giving the developers everything they wanted.

  277. Another View

    “Now, your question does prompt several questions. What was the time span when your house was listed? How many square feet did your listing agent(s) believe your house contains? What price per square foot does that calculate out to?”

    The house was listed back when Mace Ranch was being built out – lets see, I’m thinking 1996 or so. I think the square footage was about 1700 sq ft. I think we were asking something like $239,000 if I remember correctly. It has been a while, so I am making some educated guesses here.

    What I did notice was that because Mace Ranch homes were built next to a toxic waste dump, they were being offered at a cheaper price, about $20,000 cheaper, and a lot of homeowners were snapping them up like hotcakes. Yet homes in west Davis were sitting on the market for months and months.

    “Matt apparently believes that Davis has experienced a reasonable amount of new development, yet prices have increased substantially, and therefore, housing prices in Davis do not respond to supply, because there must be too much demand. I suggest that this statement is not necessarily true — one needs to compare housing supply growth and price growth in other areas in the region, and then determine how Davis stacks up.”

    I tend to think Davis is one of those cities, because of UCD, that is more desirable and thus the housing demand will always remain high. However, I also think that building new homes does have some effect on home prices at times, especially as a large development is built out.

    Having said that, I also think the city needs to be very careful about encouraging development. Not because of carbon footprints, or other such nonsense. Decreasing pollution is always a good thing. But what is of more concern is that if homes are built too fast and too many, services have to go along with them, services the city has to be able to afford. More fire, more police, more parks maintenance.

    As for infill, I used to live near a big city with tenements. Who wants to live in them? Not me. It will be very, very interesting to see who is willing to purchase the condos (or whatever the heck they are) on the top floor of the new orange and grey building on Russell Blvd downtown – the one situated across from the gas station.

    “While I think Diogenes makes good points here, I think he misses an essential point, Davis will remain overly inflated in housing prices unless its desirability is declined. That would be self-defeating.”

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    “Because what is really needed from UCD is housing on-campus that will result in a freeing up of affordable housing units in Davis currently occupied by students. Bottom-line, that is high-rise domitory space on the core UCD campus.”

    My mom was just telling me my old alma mater back east is doing the same thing UCD is. In other words, has enough housing on campus for freshman, but expects sophmores and up to go find their own housing in the surrounding area. Unfortunately, because a college education is such a necessity now, I think more and more universities are going to forgo building enough dorms for its students.

    “Additionally this nonsense about carbon footprints is just crap.Remember in thermodynamiscs it is all about how you define the system.”

    Yes, it really is about how you define the system. Some of this going green nonsense is just that. Example: the City Council votes to not sell bottled water. So the city pools have to sell water at the concession stands in styrofoam cups! Good grief…

  278. Richard

    Sorry Richard, I said nothing about seizing property. I have no problem with developers making money as long as their developments meet the needs of a diverse population.

    actually, it’s been a problem in Davis for at least 15 years

    –Richard

  279. Another View

    “Now, your question does prompt several questions. What was the time span when your house was listed? How many square feet did your listing agent(s) believe your house contains? What price per square foot does that calculate out to?”

    The house was listed back when Mace Ranch was being built out – lets see, I’m thinking 1996 or so. I think the square footage was about 1700 sq ft. I think we were asking something like $239,000 if I remember correctly. It has been a while, so I am making some educated guesses here.

    What I did notice was that because Mace Ranch homes were built next to a toxic waste dump, they were being offered at a cheaper price, about $20,000 cheaper, and a lot of homeowners were snapping them up like hotcakes. Yet homes in west Davis were sitting on the market for months and months.

    “Matt apparently believes that Davis has experienced a reasonable amount of new development, yet prices have increased substantially, and therefore, housing prices in Davis do not respond to supply, because there must be too much demand. I suggest that this statement is not necessarily true — one needs to compare housing supply growth and price growth in other areas in the region, and then determine how Davis stacks up.”

    I tend to think Davis is one of those cities, because of UCD, that is more desirable and thus the housing demand will always remain high. However, I also think that building new homes does have some effect on home prices at times, especially as a large development is built out.

    Having said that, I also think the city needs to be very careful about encouraging development. Not because of carbon footprints, or other such nonsense. Decreasing pollution is always a good thing. But what is of more concern is that if homes are built too fast and too many, services have to go along with them, services the city has to be able to afford. More fire, more police, more parks maintenance.

    As for infill, I used to live near a big city with tenements. Who wants to live in them? Not me. It will be very, very interesting to see who is willing to purchase the condos (or whatever the heck they are) on the top floor of the new orange and grey building on Russell Blvd downtown – the one situated across from the gas station.

    “While I think Diogenes makes good points here, I think he misses an essential point, Davis will remain overly inflated in housing prices unless its desirability is declined. That would be self-defeating.”

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    “Because what is really needed from UCD is housing on-campus that will result in a freeing up of affordable housing units in Davis currently occupied by students. Bottom-line, that is high-rise domitory space on the core UCD campus.”

    My mom was just telling me my old alma mater back east is doing the same thing UCD is. In other words, has enough housing on campus for freshman, but expects sophmores and up to go find their own housing in the surrounding area. Unfortunately, because a college education is such a necessity now, I think more and more universities are going to forgo building enough dorms for its students.

    “Additionally this nonsense about carbon footprints is just crap.Remember in thermodynamiscs it is all about how you define the system.”

    Yes, it really is about how you define the system. Some of this going green nonsense is just that. Example: the City Council votes to not sell bottled water. So the city pools have to sell water at the concession stands in styrofoam cups! Good grief…

  280. Richard

    Sorry Richard, I said nothing about seizing property. I have no problem with developers making money as long as their developments meet the needs of a diverse population.

    actually, it’s been a problem in Davis for at least 15 years

    –Richard

  281. Another View

    “Now, your question does prompt several questions. What was the time span when your house was listed? How many square feet did your listing agent(s) believe your house contains? What price per square foot does that calculate out to?”

    The house was listed back when Mace Ranch was being built out – lets see, I’m thinking 1996 or so. I think the square footage was about 1700 sq ft. I think we were asking something like $239,000 if I remember correctly. It has been a while, so I am making some educated guesses here.

    What I did notice was that because Mace Ranch homes were built next to a toxic waste dump, they were being offered at a cheaper price, about $20,000 cheaper, and a lot of homeowners were snapping them up like hotcakes. Yet homes in west Davis were sitting on the market for months and months.

    “Matt apparently believes that Davis has experienced a reasonable amount of new development, yet prices have increased substantially, and therefore, housing prices in Davis do not respond to supply, because there must be too much demand. I suggest that this statement is not necessarily true — one needs to compare housing supply growth and price growth in other areas in the region, and then determine how Davis stacks up.”

    I tend to think Davis is one of those cities, because of UCD, that is more desirable and thus the housing demand will always remain high. However, I also think that building new homes does have some effect on home prices at times, especially as a large development is built out.

    Having said that, I also think the city needs to be very careful about encouraging development. Not because of carbon footprints, or other such nonsense. Decreasing pollution is always a good thing. But what is of more concern is that if homes are built too fast and too many, services have to go along with them, services the city has to be able to afford. More fire, more police, more parks maintenance.

    As for infill, I used to live near a big city with tenements. Who wants to live in them? Not me. It will be very, very interesting to see who is willing to purchase the condos (or whatever the heck they are) on the top floor of the new orange and grey building on Russell Blvd downtown – the one situated across from the gas station.

    “While I think Diogenes makes good points here, I think he misses an essential point, Davis will remain overly inflated in housing prices unless its desirability is declined. That would be self-defeating.”

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    “Because what is really needed from UCD is housing on-campus that will result in a freeing up of affordable housing units in Davis currently occupied by students. Bottom-line, that is high-rise domitory space on the core UCD campus.”

    My mom was just telling me my old alma mater back east is doing the same thing UCD is. In other words, has enough housing on campus for freshman, but expects sophmores and up to go find their own housing in the surrounding area. Unfortunately, because a college education is such a necessity now, I think more and more universities are going to forgo building enough dorms for its students.

    “Additionally this nonsense about carbon footprints is just crap.Remember in thermodynamiscs it is all about how you define the system.”

    Yes, it really is about how you define the system. Some of this going green nonsense is just that. Example: the City Council votes to not sell bottled water. So the city pools have to sell water at the concession stands in styrofoam cups! Good grief…

  282. Richard

    Sorry Richard, I said nothing about seizing property. I have no problem with developers making money as long as their developments meet the needs of a diverse population.

    actually, it’s been a problem in Davis for at least 15 years

    –Richard

  283. Another View

    “Now, your question does prompt several questions. What was the time span when your house was listed? How many square feet did your listing agent(s) believe your house contains? What price per square foot does that calculate out to?”

    The house was listed back when Mace Ranch was being built out – lets see, I’m thinking 1996 or so. I think the square footage was about 1700 sq ft. I think we were asking something like $239,000 if I remember correctly. It has been a while, so I am making some educated guesses here.

    What I did notice was that because Mace Ranch homes were built next to a toxic waste dump, they were being offered at a cheaper price, about $20,000 cheaper, and a lot of homeowners were snapping them up like hotcakes. Yet homes in west Davis were sitting on the market for months and months.

    “Matt apparently believes that Davis has experienced a reasonable amount of new development, yet prices have increased substantially, and therefore, housing prices in Davis do not respond to supply, because there must be too much demand. I suggest that this statement is not necessarily true — one needs to compare housing supply growth and price growth in other areas in the region, and then determine how Davis stacks up.”

    I tend to think Davis is one of those cities, because of UCD, that is more desirable and thus the housing demand will always remain high. However, I also think that building new homes does have some effect on home prices at times, especially as a large development is built out.

    Having said that, I also think the city needs to be very careful about encouraging development. Not because of carbon footprints, or other such nonsense. Decreasing pollution is always a good thing. But what is of more concern is that if homes are built too fast and too many, services have to go along with them, services the city has to be able to afford. More fire, more police, more parks maintenance.

    As for infill, I used to live near a big city with tenements. Who wants to live in them? Not me. It will be very, very interesting to see who is willing to purchase the condos (or whatever the heck they are) on the top floor of the new orange and grey building on Russell Blvd downtown – the one situated across from the gas station.

    “While I think Diogenes makes good points here, I think he misses an essential point, Davis will remain overly inflated in housing prices unless its desirability is declined. That would be self-defeating.”

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    “Because what is really needed from UCD is housing on-campus that will result in a freeing up of affordable housing units in Davis currently occupied by students. Bottom-line, that is high-rise domitory space on the core UCD campus.”

    My mom was just telling me my old alma mater back east is doing the same thing UCD is. In other words, has enough housing on campus for freshman, but expects sophmores and up to go find their own housing in the surrounding area. Unfortunately, because a college education is such a necessity now, I think more and more universities are going to forgo building enough dorms for its students.

    “Additionally this nonsense about carbon footprints is just crap.Remember in thermodynamiscs it is all about how you define the system.”

    Yes, it really is about how you define the system. Some of this going green nonsense is just that. Example: the City Council votes to not sell bottled water. So the city pools have to sell water at the concession stands in styrofoam cups! Good grief…

  284. Richard

    Sorry Richard, I said nothing about seizing property. I have no problem with developers making money as long as their developments meet the needs of a diverse population.

    actually, it’s been a problem in Davis for at least 15 years

    –Richard

  285. Black Bart

    Yes Richard it has been a problem that the developers are allowed to maximize their profit which is why I would not vot e for the pro growth incumbents or the nimby’s.

  286. Black Bart

    Yes Richard it has been a problem that the developers are allowed to maximize their profit which is why I would not vot e for the pro growth incumbents or the nimby’s.

  287. Black Bart

    Yes Richard it has been a problem that the developers are allowed to maximize their profit which is why I would not vot e for the pro growth incumbents or the nimby’s.

  288. Black Bart

    Yes Richard it has been a problem that the developers are allowed to maximize their profit which is why I would not vot e for the pro growth incumbents or the nimby’s.

  289. Lynn Columbia

    I’d be happy to vote for Saylor …that is if I could choose a face to give my endorsement to. The problem is, I’m not sure which face I’m talking to when I speak to him.

  290. Lynn Columbia

    I’d be happy to vote for Saylor …that is if I could choose a face to give my endorsement to. The problem is, I’m not sure which face I’m talking to when I speak to him.

  291. Lynn Columbia

    I’d be happy to vote for Saylor …that is if I could choose a face to give my endorsement to. The problem is, I’m not sure which face I’m talking to when I speak to him.

  292. Lynn Columbia

    I’d be happy to vote for Saylor …that is if I could choose a face to give my endorsement to. The problem is, I’m not sure which face I’m talking to when I speak to him.

  293. WTF

    Don Saylor has never been interested in anyone else’s opinion except his own. If you’ve ever been on the opposite side of an issue, you know how it is. He has one face that pretends to listen to you while the other one is doing a crossword puzzle (or something).

    His mind is made up about an issue well before anyone talks to him about it. If you happen to share his view on the issue, you love him! If you happen to share his opinion on more than one issue, you stick a lawn sign in your yard. Or, if you’re a firefighter and have benefitted greatly from Don’s largesse at contract negotiation time.

    His supporters are fooling themselves if they think he cares one whit about them, other than their ability to act as an ATM, coughing up money (or fawning letters to the editor of the Enterprise) on demand.

  294. WTF

    Don Saylor has never been interested in anyone else’s opinion except his own. If you’ve ever been on the opposite side of an issue, you know how it is. He has one face that pretends to listen to you while the other one is doing a crossword puzzle (or something).

    His mind is made up about an issue well before anyone talks to him about it. If you happen to share his view on the issue, you love him! If you happen to share his opinion on more than one issue, you stick a lawn sign in your yard. Or, if you’re a firefighter and have benefitted greatly from Don’s largesse at contract negotiation time.

    His supporters are fooling themselves if they think he cares one whit about them, other than their ability to act as an ATM, coughing up money (or fawning letters to the editor of the Enterprise) on demand.

  295. WTF

    Don Saylor has never been interested in anyone else’s opinion except his own. If you’ve ever been on the opposite side of an issue, you know how it is. He has one face that pretends to listen to you while the other one is doing a crossword puzzle (or something).

    His mind is made up about an issue well before anyone talks to him about it. If you happen to share his view on the issue, you love him! If you happen to share his opinion on more than one issue, you stick a lawn sign in your yard. Or, if you’re a firefighter and have benefitted greatly from Don’s largesse at contract negotiation time.

    His supporters are fooling themselves if they think he cares one whit about them, other than their ability to act as an ATM, coughing up money (or fawning letters to the editor of the Enterprise) on demand.

  296. WTF

    Don Saylor has never been interested in anyone else’s opinion except his own. If you’ve ever been on the opposite side of an issue, you know how it is. He has one face that pretends to listen to you while the other one is doing a crossword puzzle (or something).

    His mind is made up about an issue well before anyone talks to him about it. If you happen to share his view on the issue, you love him! If you happen to share his opinion on more than one issue, you stick a lawn sign in your yard. Or, if you’re a firefighter and have benefitted greatly from Don’s largesse at contract negotiation time.

    His supporters are fooling themselves if they think he cares one whit about them, other than their ability to act as an ATM, coughing up money (or fawning letters to the editor of the Enterprise) on demand.

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