Commentary: Fire Fighters Spend $25,000 to $30,000 in City Council Campaign to support Saylor, Souza, and Vergis

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Saturday afternoon I opened my door and leaning against my door was a manila envelope with my wife’s name on it (Cecilia Escamilla-Greenwald for those who do not know). It seemed a bit odd, so I opened it up. It was not sealed, but rather closed with a clasp. In it, was an 8 1/2 by 11, full color, glossy, on heavy cardstock flier done by the Davis Firefighters supporting their chosen three candidates for the Davis City Council.

The whole thing seemed a bit odd to me, but I really did not know whether it was a friend or foe who left it on our doorstep. That is until I spoke later with both Rob Roy and Sue Greenwald and they both had the same experience. At this point there was little doubt in my mind that the fire department had actually left the flier on my doorstep.

The Davis firefighters have already directly contributed nearly $12,000 to their three endorsed candidates. Davis Enterprise columnist Rich Rifkin deserves great credit in doing a lot of the legwork on this issue. While Vanguard regulars know that Mr. Rifkin is often in disagreement with the Vanguard on a good many issues, we also share a bit of common ground on the issue of the budget. It was his piece from April 16, 2008 that laid out exactly how much the firefighters were spending on this race.

“In a recent front-page story in The Enterprise, Claire St. John reported that “38 people identifying themselves as city of Davis firefighters” gave $100 each (the maximum allowed by law) to City Council candidate Sydney Vergis. Of the $8,450, that Vergis has raised for her campaign, 45 percent of that came from this one group.

What that story didn’t mention is that the Davis firefighters have also contributed heavily to the re-election campaigns of incumbents Don Saylor and Stephen Souza. In Souza’s case, 39 gave him the maximum. Saylor received $4,200 from members of Local 3494.”

He goes on to add:

” In addition to the $11,900 firefighters have directly contributed to candidates, the political action committee of Local 3494 has raised $11,536 from its membership. Presumably, that money will be spent to help elect the candidates favorable to the union. “

It is pretty clear that Mr. Rifkin was rather prophetic on this point, because this mailer has to be a $10,000 to $15,000 mailer… AT LEAST. So basically the firefighters are giving $25,000 to $30,000 to their three endorsed candidates.

We can argue over influence peddling, but there is a very clear agenda here by the firefighters. They already know that councilmembers like Sue Greenwald and Lamar Heystek have opposed efforts to add things like a fourth fire station and that they have been a strong advocate of holding the line on salaries and pensions for management level employees.

Rich Rifkin’s research and article from December of 2007 is very informative and instructive.

“Last year (2006-07), the city spent $124,183 more than it took in. This year the deficit is $146,376. And next year the shortfall is projected to be $349,464. Yet during that time, the city’s revenues will have increased by more than $2.1 million.

No segment of Davis’ labor force is gorging at the trough more voraciously than the Fire Department. Every one of our full-time firefighters in 2006-07 cost us more than $100,000 in salary, benefits and other expenses. The average was $147,488.

For every $100 in regular salary we gave them, we paid out an additional $29 in overtime. And that was not, according to what Davis City Manager Bill Emlen told me in a phone conversation, unusual. “

He goes on to warn the public that these practices are unsustainable and the worst aspect of it from the standpoint of fiscal responsibility is the retirement age of 50 and 3% at 50 pension.

“When the new contract was signed the following year, Local 3494 agreed to a 36 percent increase in salaries over four years. Their $100 checks paid off. They also got a fat retirement deal, called 3 percent at 50.

What that means is that a firefighter can retire at age 50 and for every year he worked he gets 3 percent of his final salary to start his retirement. A firefighter who puts in 30 years gets 90 percent of his final salary. And because many firefighters finish as battalion chiefs and captains, those final salaries are especially lucrative.”

As Rich Rifkin points out, this year’s election is particularly important to the fire department because their current contract expires in 2009.

Moreover in his December article, Rich Rifkin gave us the example of firefighter H.

“Added together, the total cash out for this one firefighter was $213,741. Yet that figure is not all-inclusive. The city estimates that H’s unfunded liability for his retiree medical benefits will cost the city an additional $7,417. So to pay this one person, the final bill in 2006-07 was $221,158. “

Due to the lucrative overtime, many of these firefighters actually receive more combined money and benefits than the City Manager, Police Chief, and Fire Chief.

I also read some of the angry responses to Rich Rifkin’s two columns criticizing the salary structure and campaign tactics of the firefighters. I think there are three key points that need to be raised:

First, I have the utmost appreciation for what the firefighters do. I have been rescued by fire fighters from various situations twice in my life. In addition, I went on a ride along with the fire department in Davis last summer it was one of those hundred degree days and in addition to sweating out several pounds in the heavy suit, I was knocked around pretty good by the fire hoses. And folks if you have not met me I am a pretty big guy.

Second, there is an argument that comes from some of the councilmembers supporting these kind of wage structures that asks how much a life is worth as though the expenditure of $250,000 were justified by the important job they perform. The problem with that argument is that it assumes an infinite city budget. However, the budget is not infinite and at some point it may become zero-sum as resources become tighter and the public becomes less willing to continue to pay increasing taxes. How much of a jeopardy is it, if we cannot afford proper maintenance of our streets, proper upkeep of our infrastructure, if we put the public at risk because money that should go to other things instead goes to the firefighters personal salaries and benefits (firefighters making over $150,000 in these wages to begin with)–how many lives would be in jeopardy then? Why is fiscal responsibility suddenly going to put lives in danger?

And the third point follows from the second and that is the serious damage that we are doing to the fiscal stability of this city caused not only by the immediate costs of pay and benefits, but also the structural problems of having lucrative retirement plans like 3% at 50 extended to other public employees. I do not wish to balance our budget on the backs of those making 60,000 but we have to hold the line at those making 150,000 to 250,000, do we not?

Lest we believe that this is a fabricated danger, we have the example of the city of Vallejo which is bankrupt.

“The fiscal crisis, which comes more than three years after the state took over the city’s debt-ridden public schools, is a result of snowballing police and firefighter salaries and overtime expenses coupled with plummeting tax revenue from the weak housing market, officials say. (San Francisco Chronicle February 21, 2008).”

Meanwhile in Sacramento last week, the Bee reported:

“Despite facing major deficits and worker layoffs, the city of Sacramento is on the verge of approving nearly $15 million in additional pay for firefighters and paramedics over the next two years. (April 28, 2008).”

It would appear that Davis is hardly alone in facing both the problem and the pressure of firefighters for ever-increasing shares of the city budget, even amid severe budget strains. Davis over the course of the next few years will be facing a variety of new taxes, despite claims of balanced-budget, in order to meet to ever-increasing unmet needs of spiraling salaries and pensions to those city employees who are making among the most in salaries to begin with.

It is thus unsurprising that the firefighters have put so much time and effort into the latest city council campaign. It is up to the voters of Davis to determine what to do with this information and this influence peddling.

—Doug Paul Davis reporting

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About The Author

David Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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324 thoughts on “Commentary: Fire Fighters Spend $25,000 to $30,000 in City Council Campaign to support Saylor, Souza, and Vergis”

  1. Anonymous

    Wow. This seems worse to me than the so-called “developer” money. Those salaries are way higher than I would expect for a firefighter. Retiring with 90% of salary? That’s excessive under any compensation scheme.

  2. Anonymous

    Wow. This seems worse to me than the so-called “developer” money. Those salaries are way higher than I would expect for a firefighter. Retiring with 90% of salary? That’s excessive under any compensation scheme.

  3. Anonymous

    Wow. This seems worse to me than the so-called “developer” money. Those salaries are way higher than I would expect for a firefighter. Retiring with 90% of salary? That’s excessive under any compensation scheme.

  4. Anonymous

    Wow. This seems worse to me than the so-called “developer” money. Those salaries are way higher than I would expect for a firefighter. Retiring with 90% of salary? That’s excessive under any compensation scheme.

  5. Anonymous

    I would like to hear candidates come out and say how they plan to roll back some of the salaries and benefits. This is a real issue and candidates are afraid to discuss it.

    Just to be perfectly clear – the police officers get the same deal. Mr. Rifkin seems to focus on firefighters, but the issue really extends to all city employees.

    The issue also extends beyond city workers – there are 1997 UCD employees making more than $100K per year.

    http://www.sacbee.com/1098/story/766730.html

  6. Anonymous

    I would like to hear candidates come out and say how they plan to roll back some of the salaries and benefits. This is a real issue and candidates are afraid to discuss it.

    Just to be perfectly clear – the police officers get the same deal. Mr. Rifkin seems to focus on firefighters, but the issue really extends to all city employees.

    The issue also extends beyond city workers – there are 1997 UCD employees making more than $100K per year.

    http://www.sacbee.com/1098/story/766730.html

  7. Anonymous

    I would like to hear candidates come out and say how they plan to roll back some of the salaries and benefits. This is a real issue and candidates are afraid to discuss it.

    Just to be perfectly clear – the police officers get the same deal. Mr. Rifkin seems to focus on firefighters, but the issue really extends to all city employees.

    The issue also extends beyond city workers – there are 1997 UCD employees making more than $100K per year.

    http://www.sacbee.com/1098/story/766730.html

  8. Anonymous

    I would like to hear candidates come out and say how they plan to roll back some of the salaries and benefits. This is a real issue and candidates are afraid to discuss it.

    Just to be perfectly clear – the police officers get the same deal. Mr. Rifkin seems to focus on firefighters, but the issue really extends to all city employees.

    The issue also extends beyond city workers – there are 1997 UCD employees making more than $100K per year.

    http://www.sacbee.com/1098/story/766730.html

  9. Vincente

    Just read this in the Davis Enterprise’s endorsement of the three:

    “Davis will need council members who drive hard bargains with the city’s labor unions, make fiscally sound decisions to live within our means”

    Hello?????

  10. Vincente

    Just read this in the Davis Enterprise’s endorsement of the three:

    “Davis will need council members who drive hard bargains with the city’s labor unions, make fiscally sound decisions to live within our means”

    Hello?????

  11. Vincente

    Just read this in the Davis Enterprise’s endorsement of the three:

    “Davis will need council members who drive hard bargains with the city’s labor unions, make fiscally sound decisions to live within our means”

    Hello?????

  12. Vincente

    Just read this in the Davis Enterprise’s endorsement of the three:

    “Davis will need council members who drive hard bargains with the city’s labor unions, make fiscally sound decisions to live within our means”

    Hello?????

  13. Richard

    Just read this in the Davis Enterprise’s endorsement of the three:

    “Davis will need council members who drive hard bargains with the city’s labor unions, make fiscally sound decisions to live within our means”

    The Enterprise knows that this is nonsense. Just propaganda for the voters.

    –Richard Estes

  14. Richard

    Just read this in the Davis Enterprise’s endorsement of the three:

    “Davis will need council members who drive hard bargains with the city’s labor unions, make fiscally sound decisions to live within our means”

    The Enterprise knows that this is nonsense. Just propaganda for the voters.

    –Richard Estes

  15. Richard

    Just read this in the Davis Enterprise’s endorsement of the three:

    “Davis will need council members who drive hard bargains with the city’s labor unions, make fiscally sound decisions to live within our means”

    The Enterprise knows that this is nonsense. Just propaganda for the voters.

    –Richard Estes

  16. Richard

    Just read this in the Davis Enterprise’s endorsement of the three:

    “Davis will need council members who drive hard bargains with the city’s labor unions, make fiscally sound decisions to live within our means”

    The Enterprise knows that this is nonsense. Just propaganda for the voters.

    –Richard Estes

  17. Anonymous

    The issues raised in this commentary need to be the topic of discussion by Davis voters(notably the senior citizen community) …and soon… as the absentee ballots will be going out within weeks . This kind of influence peddling needs to be discussed, both as an issue of ethics and its corruption of our democratic process as well as the very practical effect of reducing resources for other Davis support services. It is noteworthy that at least 2 of the Firefighter’s candidates(AGAIN, we are left perplexed as to the endorsement of this total unknown Vergis), Souza and Saylor have, in the recent past, publicly exposed their future political ambitions…. Saylor for the Assembly and Souza for Supervisor(is Souza still holding to his “promise” not to run for elected office again?). The future political financial and organized “volunteer” support that the firefighters can supply are extremely attractive but it carries a price-tag that will be doled out by Saylor, Souza and Vergis and paid for by the Davis taxpayer.

  18. Anonymous

    The issues raised in this commentary need to be the topic of discussion by Davis voters(notably the senior citizen community) …and soon… as the absentee ballots will be going out within weeks . This kind of influence peddling needs to be discussed, both as an issue of ethics and its corruption of our democratic process as well as the very practical effect of reducing resources for other Davis support services. It is noteworthy that at least 2 of the Firefighter’s candidates(AGAIN, we are left perplexed as to the endorsement of this total unknown Vergis), Souza and Saylor have, in the recent past, publicly exposed their future political ambitions…. Saylor for the Assembly and Souza for Supervisor(is Souza still holding to his “promise” not to run for elected office again?). The future political financial and organized “volunteer” support that the firefighters can supply are extremely attractive but it carries a price-tag that will be doled out by Saylor, Souza and Vergis and paid for by the Davis taxpayer.

  19. Anonymous

    The issues raised in this commentary need to be the topic of discussion by Davis voters(notably the senior citizen community) …and soon… as the absentee ballots will be going out within weeks . This kind of influence peddling needs to be discussed, both as an issue of ethics and its corruption of our democratic process as well as the very practical effect of reducing resources for other Davis support services. It is noteworthy that at least 2 of the Firefighter’s candidates(AGAIN, we are left perplexed as to the endorsement of this total unknown Vergis), Souza and Saylor have, in the recent past, publicly exposed their future political ambitions…. Saylor for the Assembly and Souza for Supervisor(is Souza still holding to his “promise” not to run for elected office again?). The future political financial and organized “volunteer” support that the firefighters can supply are extremely attractive but it carries a price-tag that will be doled out by Saylor, Souza and Vergis and paid for by the Davis taxpayer.

  20. Anonymous

    The issues raised in this commentary need to be the topic of discussion by Davis voters(notably the senior citizen community) …and soon… as the absentee ballots will be going out within weeks . This kind of influence peddling needs to be discussed, both as an issue of ethics and its corruption of our democratic process as well as the very practical effect of reducing resources for other Davis support services. It is noteworthy that at least 2 of the Firefighter’s candidates(AGAIN, we are left perplexed as to the endorsement of this total unknown Vergis), Souza and Saylor have, in the recent past, publicly exposed their future political ambitions…. Saylor for the Assembly and Souza for Supervisor(is Souza still holding to his “promise” not to run for elected office again?). The future political financial and organized “volunteer” support that the firefighters can supply are extremely attractive but it carries a price-tag that will be doled out by Saylor, Souza and Vergis and paid for by the Davis taxpayer.

  21. Anonymous

    The DFD and DPD are not out of line with other communities’ forces. If you want to retain your workforce, you need to pay them competitive salaries.

    The retirement provisions are part of the system under CalPers for safety officers.

    So, really the only choice is to cut the “frills”–parks, commissions, feel-good things. We’re talking about basic services here.

    Alternatively, you can try to grow out of the problem by approving some housing–not by hanging on to this notion of “We’ll do it the Davis way.” Or try to attract some business besides car dealerships. Well, that’s fine, I guess, if you want to lead the city to Chapter 11.

    Not building a fourth fire station probably could have been avoided if the Stan Forbes’s referendum not to expand the railroad overcrossing–a clear conflict of interest to protect the Avid Reader against Borders when he was 50 percent owner with his former wife–had never taken place. (This is the real reason Stan is for no growth and probably explains why he cannot get reelected–that is, he abused his power as a councilmember for his own economic gain.)

    The bottom line: The city will have to pay competitive wages for its employees…and fire department and police department employees will always have overtime. There’s no way around that public safety issue.

    Cecilia, Sue, and Rob would have no success in undoing these realities–no matter how much whining goes on here.

  22. Anonymous

    The DFD and DPD are not out of line with other communities’ forces. If you want to retain your workforce, you need to pay them competitive salaries.

    The retirement provisions are part of the system under CalPers for safety officers.

    So, really the only choice is to cut the “frills”–parks, commissions, feel-good things. We’re talking about basic services here.

    Alternatively, you can try to grow out of the problem by approving some housing–not by hanging on to this notion of “We’ll do it the Davis way.” Or try to attract some business besides car dealerships. Well, that’s fine, I guess, if you want to lead the city to Chapter 11.

    Not building a fourth fire station probably could have been avoided if the Stan Forbes’s referendum not to expand the railroad overcrossing–a clear conflict of interest to protect the Avid Reader against Borders when he was 50 percent owner with his former wife–had never taken place. (This is the real reason Stan is for no growth and probably explains why he cannot get reelected–that is, he abused his power as a councilmember for his own economic gain.)

    The bottom line: The city will have to pay competitive wages for its employees…and fire department and police department employees will always have overtime. There’s no way around that public safety issue.

    Cecilia, Sue, and Rob would have no success in undoing these realities–no matter how much whining goes on here.

  23. Anonymous

    The DFD and DPD are not out of line with other communities’ forces. If you want to retain your workforce, you need to pay them competitive salaries.

    The retirement provisions are part of the system under CalPers for safety officers.

    So, really the only choice is to cut the “frills”–parks, commissions, feel-good things. We’re talking about basic services here.

    Alternatively, you can try to grow out of the problem by approving some housing–not by hanging on to this notion of “We’ll do it the Davis way.” Or try to attract some business besides car dealerships. Well, that’s fine, I guess, if you want to lead the city to Chapter 11.

    Not building a fourth fire station probably could have been avoided if the Stan Forbes’s referendum not to expand the railroad overcrossing–a clear conflict of interest to protect the Avid Reader against Borders when he was 50 percent owner with his former wife–had never taken place. (This is the real reason Stan is for no growth and probably explains why he cannot get reelected–that is, he abused his power as a councilmember for his own economic gain.)

    The bottom line: The city will have to pay competitive wages for its employees…and fire department and police department employees will always have overtime. There’s no way around that public safety issue.

    Cecilia, Sue, and Rob would have no success in undoing these realities–no matter how much whining goes on here.

  24. Anonymous

    The DFD and DPD are not out of line with other communities’ forces. If you want to retain your workforce, you need to pay them competitive salaries.

    The retirement provisions are part of the system under CalPers for safety officers.

    So, really the only choice is to cut the “frills”–parks, commissions, feel-good things. We’re talking about basic services here.

    Alternatively, you can try to grow out of the problem by approving some housing–not by hanging on to this notion of “We’ll do it the Davis way.” Or try to attract some business besides car dealerships. Well, that’s fine, I guess, if you want to lead the city to Chapter 11.

    Not building a fourth fire station probably could have been avoided if the Stan Forbes’s referendum not to expand the railroad overcrossing–a clear conflict of interest to protect the Avid Reader against Borders when he was 50 percent owner with his former wife–had never taken place. (This is the real reason Stan is for no growth and probably explains why he cannot get reelected–that is, he abused his power as a councilmember for his own economic gain.)

    The bottom line: The city will have to pay competitive wages for its employees…and fire department and police department employees will always have overtime. There’s no way around that public safety issue.

    Cecilia, Sue, and Rob would have no success in undoing these realities–no matter how much whining goes on here.

  25. Davisite

    Well… are we just going to TAKE THIS!!! I,for one< will be devoting a good deal of my spare time in the next few weeks "talking" to my fellow Davis voters about these issues,door to door!!!!

  26. Davisite

    Well… are we just going to TAKE THIS!!! I,for one< will be devoting a good deal of my spare time in the next few weeks "talking" to my fellow Davis voters about these issues,door to door!!!!

  27. Davisite

    Well… are we just going to TAKE THIS!!! I,for one< will be devoting a good deal of my spare time in the next few weeks "talking" to my fellow Davis voters about these issues,door to door!!!!

  28. Davisite

    Well… are we just going to TAKE THIS!!! I,for one< will be devoting a good deal of my spare time in the next few weeks "talking" to my fellow Davis voters about these issues,door to door!!!!

  29. Anonymous

    Gee whiz…the fire fighters are a good, solid union that actually provides services to our community. Why aren’t they getting the kind and slavish attention you devoted to your union friends at AFSCME/Sodexho (ad nauseum)? Why the double standard? You’re for unions but only those that support your wife? Tut..tut…tut.

  30. Anonymous

    Gee whiz…the fire fighters are a good, solid union that actually provides services to our community. Why aren’t they getting the kind and slavish attention you devoted to your union friends at AFSCME/Sodexho (ad nauseum)? Why the double standard? You’re for unions but only those that support your wife? Tut..tut…tut.

  31. Anonymous

    Gee whiz…the fire fighters are a good, solid union that actually provides services to our community. Why aren’t they getting the kind and slavish attention you devoted to your union friends at AFSCME/Sodexho (ad nauseum)? Why the double standard? You’re for unions but only those that support your wife? Tut..tut…tut.

  32. Anonymous

    Gee whiz…the fire fighters are a good, solid union that actually provides services to our community. Why aren’t they getting the kind and slavish attention you devoted to your union friends at AFSCME/Sodexho (ad nauseum)? Why the double standard? You’re for unions but only those that support your wife? Tut..tut…tut.

  33. Anonymous

    “The DFD and DPD are not out of line with other communities’ forces.”

    That’s true. And from what we’ve seen they have led to other communities being backrupt. Sure that is not your central argument here.

    “So, really the only choice is to cut the “frills”–parks, commissions, feel-good things. We’re talking about basic services here.”

    You might have made that argument before we passed the parks tax in 2006. Now we actually cannot cut parks. Commissions do not add up to squat. The city budget has three legs that account for most if not all of budget: parks, public works, and public safety. We locked in parks first. Your move.

    “Alternatively, you can try to grow out of the problem by approving some housing”

    Housing is not a revenue producing activity.

    “Not building a fourth fire station probably could have been avoided if the Stan Forbes’s referendum not to expand the railroad overcrossing”

    Expanding the Richards underpass simply would have shifted congestion from Richards outside of the city core, to the two lane streets in the core, then what would your move have been?

    “The bottom line: The city will have to pay competitive wages for its employees…and fire department and police department employees will always have overtime. There’s no way around that public safety issue.”

    Actually the bottom line is that we need elected official who are not in the pockets of the interests that they have to deal with and make tough choices with. The fire fighters have insured that these officials will have to look toward other solutions, instead of taking a tough look at salaries and benefits rather than assuming that this is how it must be. As more and more cities face the fiscal crisis of fire fighters it is not clear to me that the situation that you have described holds for the future.

  34. Anonymous

    “The DFD and DPD are not out of line with other communities’ forces.”

    That’s true. And from what we’ve seen they have led to other communities being backrupt. Sure that is not your central argument here.

    “So, really the only choice is to cut the “frills”–parks, commissions, feel-good things. We’re talking about basic services here.”

    You might have made that argument before we passed the parks tax in 2006. Now we actually cannot cut parks. Commissions do not add up to squat. The city budget has three legs that account for most if not all of budget: parks, public works, and public safety. We locked in parks first. Your move.

    “Alternatively, you can try to grow out of the problem by approving some housing”

    Housing is not a revenue producing activity.

    “Not building a fourth fire station probably could have been avoided if the Stan Forbes’s referendum not to expand the railroad overcrossing”

    Expanding the Richards underpass simply would have shifted congestion from Richards outside of the city core, to the two lane streets in the core, then what would your move have been?

    “The bottom line: The city will have to pay competitive wages for its employees…and fire department and police department employees will always have overtime. There’s no way around that public safety issue.”

    Actually the bottom line is that we need elected official who are not in the pockets of the interests that they have to deal with and make tough choices with. The fire fighters have insured that these officials will have to look toward other solutions, instead of taking a tough look at salaries and benefits rather than assuming that this is how it must be. As more and more cities face the fiscal crisis of fire fighters it is not clear to me that the situation that you have described holds for the future.

  35. Anonymous

    “The DFD and DPD are not out of line with other communities’ forces.”

    That’s true. And from what we’ve seen they have led to other communities being backrupt. Sure that is not your central argument here.

    “So, really the only choice is to cut the “frills”–parks, commissions, feel-good things. We’re talking about basic services here.”

    You might have made that argument before we passed the parks tax in 2006. Now we actually cannot cut parks. Commissions do not add up to squat. The city budget has three legs that account for most if not all of budget: parks, public works, and public safety. We locked in parks first. Your move.

    “Alternatively, you can try to grow out of the problem by approving some housing”

    Housing is not a revenue producing activity.

    “Not building a fourth fire station probably could have been avoided if the Stan Forbes’s referendum not to expand the railroad overcrossing”

    Expanding the Richards underpass simply would have shifted congestion from Richards outside of the city core, to the two lane streets in the core, then what would your move have been?

    “The bottom line: The city will have to pay competitive wages for its employees…and fire department and police department employees will always have overtime. There’s no way around that public safety issue.”

    Actually the bottom line is that we need elected official who are not in the pockets of the interests that they have to deal with and make tough choices with. The fire fighters have insured that these officials will have to look toward other solutions, instead of taking a tough look at salaries and benefits rather than assuming that this is how it must be. As more and more cities face the fiscal crisis of fire fighters it is not clear to me that the situation that you have described holds for the future.

  36. Anonymous

    “The DFD and DPD are not out of line with other communities’ forces.”

    That’s true. And from what we’ve seen they have led to other communities being backrupt. Sure that is not your central argument here.

    “So, really the only choice is to cut the “frills”–parks, commissions, feel-good things. We’re talking about basic services here.”

    You might have made that argument before we passed the parks tax in 2006. Now we actually cannot cut parks. Commissions do not add up to squat. The city budget has three legs that account for most if not all of budget: parks, public works, and public safety. We locked in parks first. Your move.

    “Alternatively, you can try to grow out of the problem by approving some housing”

    Housing is not a revenue producing activity.

    “Not building a fourth fire station probably could have been avoided if the Stan Forbes’s referendum not to expand the railroad overcrossing”

    Expanding the Richards underpass simply would have shifted congestion from Richards outside of the city core, to the two lane streets in the core, then what would your move have been?

    “The bottom line: The city will have to pay competitive wages for its employees…and fire department and police department employees will always have overtime. There’s no way around that public safety issue.”

    Actually the bottom line is that we need elected official who are not in the pockets of the interests that they have to deal with and make tough choices with. The fire fighters have insured that these officials will have to look toward other solutions, instead of taking a tough look at salaries and benefits rather than assuming that this is how it must be. As more and more cities face the fiscal crisis of fire fighters it is not clear to me that the situation that you have described holds for the future.

  37. Anonymous

    “Why aren’t they getting the kind and slavish attention you devoted to your union friends at AFSCME/Sodexho (ad nauseum)?”

    As far as I can tell a city council candidate has no direct authority over wages at the university, hence there is no direct conflict of interest.

  38. Anonymous

    “Why aren’t they getting the kind and slavish attention you devoted to your union friends at AFSCME/Sodexho (ad nauseum)?”

    As far as I can tell a city council candidate has no direct authority over wages at the university, hence there is no direct conflict of interest.

  39. Anonymous

    “Why aren’t they getting the kind and slavish attention you devoted to your union friends at AFSCME/Sodexho (ad nauseum)?”

    As far as I can tell a city council candidate has no direct authority over wages at the university, hence there is no direct conflict of interest.

  40. Anonymous

    “Why aren’t they getting the kind and slavish attention you devoted to your union friends at AFSCME/Sodexho (ad nauseum)?”

    As far as I can tell a city council candidate has no direct authority over wages at the university, hence there is no direct conflict of interest.

  41. Tired of the apologist crap from you

    The fire fighters are a good union alright anonymous, powerful enough to bankrupt Davis like they did Vallejo.

  42. Tired of the apologist crap fr

    The fire fighters are a good union alright anonymous, powerful enough to bankrupt Davis like they did Vallejo.

  43. Tired of the apologist crap fr

    The fire fighters are a good union alright anonymous, powerful enough to bankrupt Davis like they did Vallejo.

  44. Tired of the apologist crap fr

    The fire fighters are a good union alright anonymous, powerful enough to bankrupt Davis like they did Vallejo.

  45. Anonymous

    Since Çecilia is a major labor supporter, it would be useful to hear her views on these salary issues. Would she support lower pay and benefit contracts for police and firefighters?

  46. Anonymous

    Since Çecilia is a major labor supporter, it would be useful to hear her views on these salary issues. Would she support lower pay and benefit contracts for police and firefighters?

  47. Anonymous

    Since Çecilia is a major labor supporter, it would be useful to hear her views on these salary issues. Would she support lower pay and benefit contracts for police and firefighters?

  48. Anonymous

    Since Çecilia is a major labor supporter, it would be useful to hear her views on these salary issues. Would she support lower pay and benefit contracts for police and firefighters?

  49. Anonymous

    I don’t think the issue is cutting salary, given the processes in place, and a collective bargaining agreement, that’s not possible. The question is really whether someone can hold the line on salaries and pensions. Certainly the answer is not people who are receiving thousands in both direct and also IE contributions from a given interest.

    Also I think you have to separate the little sodexho working who is making 9 or 10 per hour from the Fire fighter who is making 150,000 to over $200,000 per year.

  50. Anonymous

    I don’t think the issue is cutting salary, given the processes in place, and a collective bargaining agreement, that’s not possible. The question is really whether someone can hold the line on salaries and pensions. Certainly the answer is not people who are receiving thousands in both direct and also IE contributions from a given interest.

    Also I think you have to separate the little sodexho working who is making 9 or 10 per hour from the Fire fighter who is making 150,000 to over $200,000 per year.

  51. Anonymous

    I don’t think the issue is cutting salary, given the processes in place, and a collective bargaining agreement, that’s not possible. The question is really whether someone can hold the line on salaries and pensions. Certainly the answer is not people who are receiving thousands in both direct and also IE contributions from a given interest.

    Also I think you have to separate the little sodexho working who is making 9 or 10 per hour from the Fire fighter who is making 150,000 to over $200,000 per year.

  52. Anonymous

    I don’t think the issue is cutting salary, given the processes in place, and a collective bargaining agreement, that’s not possible. The question is really whether someone can hold the line on salaries and pensions. Certainly the answer is not people who are receiving thousands in both direct and also IE contributions from a given interest.

    Also I think you have to separate the little sodexho working who is making 9 or 10 per hour from the Fire fighter who is making 150,000 to over $200,000 per year.

  53. Anonymous

    I’m sure Cecilia doesn’t support the wages of the DPD and DFD rank and file–only those of whom she represents and from whom she earns her own paycheck.

    That’s the union modus operandi.

  54. Anonymous

    I’m sure Cecilia doesn’t support the wages of the DPD and DFD rank and file–only those of whom she represents and from whom she earns her own paycheck.

    That’s the union modus operandi.

  55. Anonymous

    I’m sure Cecilia doesn’t support the wages of the DPD and DFD rank and file–only those of whom she represents and from whom she earns her own paycheck.

    That’s the union modus operandi.

  56. Anonymous

    I’m sure Cecilia doesn’t support the wages of the DPD and DFD rank and file–only those of whom she represents and from whom she earns her own paycheck.

    That’s the union modus operandi.

  57. Anonymous

    What is amazing is your utter failure to differentiate between those making 10 per hour, those making 30K per year, and those making over 150K per year. Can you answer for why you believe all these are equivalent in your mind?

  58. Anonymous

    What is amazing is your utter failure to differentiate between those making 10 per hour, those making 30K per year, and those making over 150K per year. Can you answer for why you believe all these are equivalent in your mind?

  59. Anonymous

    What is amazing is your utter failure to differentiate between those making 10 per hour, those making 30K per year, and those making over 150K per year. Can you answer for why you believe all these are equivalent in your mind?

  60. Anonymous

    What is amazing is your utter failure to differentiate between those making 10 per hour, those making 30K per year, and those making over 150K per year. Can you answer for why you believe all these are equivalent in your mind?

  61. Mark Johnson

    Hey anonymous 9:00 and 9:05:

    I think it would instructive if you instead of attacking Cecilia due to your anti-union bias, instead defended current city policies and the actions of the firefighters of trying to buy an election to secure their salaries?

  62. Mark Johnson

    Hey anonymous 9:00 and 9:05:

    I think it would instructive if you instead of attacking Cecilia due to your anti-union bias, instead defended current city policies and the actions of the firefighters of trying to buy an election to secure their salaries?

  63. Mark Johnson

    Hey anonymous 9:00 and 9:05:

    I think it would instructive if you instead of attacking Cecilia due to your anti-union bias, instead defended current city policies and the actions of the firefighters of trying to buy an election to secure their salaries?

  64. Mark Johnson

    Hey anonymous 9:00 and 9:05:

    I think it would instructive if you instead of attacking Cecilia due to your anti-union bias, instead defended current city policies and the actions of the firefighters of trying to buy an election to secure their salaries?

  65. Anonymous

    They’re not all the same in my mind. I think workers making $10 per hour should make more. I think there should be a living or family wage.

    But I am saying the union tactics and motivation are the same. Union representatives earn their bread from the backs of the respective workers they represent. Cecilia is no different in that regard.

  66. Anonymous

    They’re not all the same in my mind. I think workers making $10 per hour should make more. I think there should be a living or family wage.

    But I am saying the union tactics and motivation are the same. Union representatives earn their bread from the backs of the respective workers they represent. Cecilia is no different in that regard.

  67. Anonymous

    They’re not all the same in my mind. I think workers making $10 per hour should make more. I think there should be a living or family wage.

    But I am saying the union tactics and motivation are the same. Union representatives earn their bread from the backs of the respective workers they represent. Cecilia is no different in that regard.

  68. Anonymous

    They’re not all the same in my mind. I think workers making $10 per hour should make more. I think there should be a living or family wage.

    But I am saying the union tactics and motivation are the same. Union representatives earn their bread from the backs of the respective workers they represent. Cecilia is no different in that regard.

  69. Mark Johnson

    Clearly the salary differentiation is key deciding factor. Not to mention the impact on the city budget. I cannot speak for Cecilia but I think in my mind I would support those who make 9 to 10 per hour trying to get more but not the fire fighters. I don’t see all union claims as being equivalent.

  70. Mark Johnson

    Clearly the salary differentiation is key deciding factor. Not to mention the impact on the city budget. I cannot speak for Cecilia but I think in my mind I would support those who make 9 to 10 per hour trying to get more but not the fire fighters. I don’t see all union claims as being equivalent.

  71. Mark Johnson

    Clearly the salary differentiation is key deciding factor. Not to mention the impact on the city budget. I cannot speak for Cecilia but I think in my mind I would support those who make 9 to 10 per hour trying to get more but not the fire fighters. I don’t see all union claims as being equivalent.

  72. Mark Johnson

    Clearly the salary differentiation is key deciding factor. Not to mention the impact on the city budget. I cannot speak for Cecilia but I think in my mind I would support those who make 9 to 10 per hour trying to get more but not the fire fighters. I don’t see all union claims as being equivalent.

  73. Anonymous

    I’m with “tired of.” I think we could go to a volunteer force. While we’re at it, why don’t we start a volunteer police department and call it a militia? And think of all the money we’ll all save as the average life expectancy diminishes by 10 years under such a scenario.

    If we all start smoking, too, then there will be fewer buildings to put out as they burn down; and it will save rising costs due to illness associated with old age.

    Rock on, “Tired of.” Volunteer forces–what a fantastic idea!

  74. Anonymous

    I’m with “tired of.” I think we could go to a volunteer force. While we’re at it, why don’t we start a volunteer police department and call it a militia? And think of all the money we’ll all save as the average life expectancy diminishes by 10 years under such a scenario.

    If we all start smoking, too, then there will be fewer buildings to put out as they burn down; and it will save rising costs due to illness associated with old age.

    Rock on, “Tired of.” Volunteer forces–what a fantastic idea!

  75. Anonymous

    I’m with “tired of.” I think we could go to a volunteer force. While we’re at it, why don’t we start a volunteer police department and call it a militia? And think of all the money we’ll all save as the average life expectancy diminishes by 10 years under such a scenario.

    If we all start smoking, too, then there will be fewer buildings to put out as they burn down; and it will save rising costs due to illness associated with old age.

    Rock on, “Tired of.” Volunteer forces–what a fantastic idea!

  76. Anonymous

    I’m with “tired of.” I think we could go to a volunteer force. While we’re at it, why don’t we start a volunteer police department and call it a militia? And think of all the money we’ll all save as the average life expectancy diminishes by 10 years under such a scenario.

    If we all start smoking, too, then there will be fewer buildings to put out as they burn down; and it will save rising costs due to illness associated with old age.

    Rock on, “Tired of.” Volunteer forces–what a fantastic idea!

  77. Tired of...

    Desperate times my friends. People keep talking about home prices keeping people out, what happens when we get socked with three additional tax hikes plus water fee hikes? I’ll tell you many of us will be forced to leave because we can no longer afford it. We need some fiscal responsibility now.

  78. Tired of...

    Desperate times my friends. People keep talking about home prices keeping people out, what happens when we get socked with three additional tax hikes plus water fee hikes? I’ll tell you many of us will be forced to leave because we can no longer afford it. We need some fiscal responsibility now.

  79. Tired of...

    Desperate times my friends. People keep talking about home prices keeping people out, what happens when we get socked with three additional tax hikes plus water fee hikes? I’ll tell you many of us will be forced to leave because we can no longer afford it. We need some fiscal responsibility now.

  80. Tired of...

    Desperate times my friends. People keep talking about home prices keeping people out, what happens when we get socked with three additional tax hikes plus water fee hikes? I’ll tell you many of us will be forced to leave because we can no longer afford it. We need some fiscal responsibility now.

  81. Anonymous

    Your stat is misleading. Here’s the next paragraph:

    About 9 out of 10 fire fighting workers were employed by local government. Some large cities have thousands of career fire fighters, while many small towns have only a few. Most of the remainder worked in fire departments on Federal and State installations, including airports. Private fire fighting companies employ a small number of fire fighters.

    Even smaller cities in Northern California have some paid staff.

    The 2/3 of the country includes the 50 percent non-urban areas, which probably have a higher per capita fire force than metro areas.

    So, let’s be realistic about how much this number actually applies to the case in Davis. You may be able to negotiate for some volunteers, but the city needs a professional, 24-hour fire department–not Billy Bob and Freddy Joe driving the old hook-and-ladder.

  82. tansey thomas

    It seems that some of you anonymous people are telling me that Davis is seen as a cash cow that certain folks masquerading as our leaders and staff are cashing in and selling us out for their future benefits. What happens when the City goes bankrupt like the schools or even the state?

  83. Anonymous

    Your stat is misleading. Here’s the next paragraph:

    About 9 out of 10 fire fighting workers were employed by local government. Some large cities have thousands of career fire fighters, while many small towns have only a few. Most of the remainder worked in fire departments on Federal and State installations, including airports. Private fire fighting companies employ a small number of fire fighters.

    Even smaller cities in Northern California have some paid staff.

    The 2/3 of the country includes the 50 percent non-urban areas, which probably have a higher per capita fire force than metro areas.

    So, let’s be realistic about how much this number actually applies to the case in Davis. You may be able to negotiate for some volunteers, but the city needs a professional, 24-hour fire department–not Billy Bob and Freddy Joe driving the old hook-and-ladder.

  84. tansey thomas

    It seems that some of you anonymous people are telling me that Davis is seen as a cash cow that certain folks masquerading as our leaders and staff are cashing in and selling us out for their future benefits. What happens when the City goes bankrupt like the schools or even the state?

  85. Anonymous

    Your stat is misleading. Here’s the next paragraph:

    About 9 out of 10 fire fighting workers were employed by local government. Some large cities have thousands of career fire fighters, while many small towns have only a few. Most of the remainder worked in fire departments on Federal and State installations, including airports. Private fire fighting companies employ a small number of fire fighters.

    Even smaller cities in Northern California have some paid staff.

    The 2/3 of the country includes the 50 percent non-urban areas, which probably have a higher per capita fire force than metro areas.

    So, let’s be realistic about how much this number actually applies to the case in Davis. You may be able to negotiate for some volunteers, but the city needs a professional, 24-hour fire department–not Billy Bob and Freddy Joe driving the old hook-and-ladder.

  86. tansey thomas

    It seems that some of you anonymous people are telling me that Davis is seen as a cash cow that certain folks masquerading as our leaders and staff are cashing in and selling us out for their future benefits. What happens when the City goes bankrupt like the schools or even the state?

  87. Anonymous

    Your stat is misleading. Here’s the next paragraph:

    About 9 out of 10 fire fighting workers were employed by local government. Some large cities have thousands of career fire fighters, while many small towns have only a few. Most of the remainder worked in fire departments on Federal and State installations, including airports. Private fire fighting companies employ a small number of fire fighters.

    Even smaller cities in Northern California have some paid staff.

    The 2/3 of the country includes the 50 percent non-urban areas, which probably have a higher per capita fire force than metro areas.

    So, let’s be realistic about how much this number actually applies to the case in Davis. You may be able to negotiate for some volunteers, but the city needs a professional, 24-hour fire department–not Billy Bob and Freddy Joe driving the old hook-and-ladder.

  88. tansey thomas

    It seems that some of you anonymous people are telling me that Davis is seen as a cash cow that certain folks masquerading as our leaders and staff are cashing in and selling us out for their future benefits. What happens when the City goes bankrupt like the schools or even the state?

  89. Ron Glick

    I wish I could get 3% at 50. Teachers get 1.4% at 55 and 2% at 60. They work us to death. Anyway I’m glad the firefighters get as much as they do and if it breaks the bank like it did in Vallejo things will get renegotiated as they did in Vallejo.

    Its not surprising that the firefighters would not support the mayor who has sounded like a republican on city labor issues for years. What is odd and defies logic is that labor should be supporting Cecelia “cookie” Escamilla Greenwald who has a day job as a labor rep. One has got to wonder what went wrong here?

  90. Ron Glick

    I wish I could get 3% at 50. Teachers get 1.4% at 55 and 2% at 60. They work us to death. Anyway I’m glad the firefighters get as much as they do and if it breaks the bank like it did in Vallejo things will get renegotiated as they did in Vallejo.

    Its not surprising that the firefighters would not support the mayor who has sounded like a republican on city labor issues for years. What is odd and defies logic is that labor should be supporting Cecelia “cookie” Escamilla Greenwald who has a day job as a labor rep. One has got to wonder what went wrong here?

  91. Ron Glick

    I wish I could get 3% at 50. Teachers get 1.4% at 55 and 2% at 60. They work us to death. Anyway I’m glad the firefighters get as much as they do and if it breaks the bank like it did in Vallejo things will get renegotiated as they did in Vallejo.

    Its not surprising that the firefighters would not support the mayor who has sounded like a republican on city labor issues for years. What is odd and defies logic is that labor should be supporting Cecelia “cookie” Escamilla Greenwald who has a day job as a labor rep. One has got to wonder what went wrong here?

  92. Ron Glick

    I wish I could get 3% at 50. Teachers get 1.4% at 55 and 2% at 60. They work us to death. Anyway I’m glad the firefighters get as much as they do and if it breaks the bank like it did in Vallejo things will get renegotiated as they did in Vallejo.

    Its not surprising that the firefighters would not support the mayor who has sounded like a republican on city labor issues for years. What is odd and defies logic is that labor should be supporting Cecelia “cookie” Escamilla Greenwald who has a day job as a labor rep. One has got to wonder what went wrong here?

  93. Don Gibson

    We need publicly financed campaigns in Davis. I dont know the specifics or if this would limit independent expenditures in Davis. It would help fix all of the issues we have with who is being bought by who. If we had publicly financed campaigns we would not have to worry about where people get their money. The city will have a much more open discussion on policy and where they stand. As long as people are able to show that they can get the support of a significant amount of voters, they should all be put on par with the public to decide.

  94. Don Gibson

    We need publicly financed campaigns in Davis. I dont know the specifics or if this would limit independent expenditures in Davis. It would help fix all of the issues we have with who is being bought by who. If we had publicly financed campaigns we would not have to worry about where people get their money. The city will have a much more open discussion on policy and where they stand. As long as people are able to show that they can get the support of a significant amount of voters, they should all be put on par with the public to decide.

  95. Don Gibson

    We need publicly financed campaigns in Davis. I dont know the specifics or if this would limit independent expenditures in Davis. It would help fix all of the issues we have with who is being bought by who. If we had publicly financed campaigns we would not have to worry about where people get their money. The city will have a much more open discussion on policy and where they stand. As long as people are able to show that they can get the support of a significant amount of voters, they should all be put on par with the public to decide.

  96. Don Gibson

    We need publicly financed campaigns in Davis. I dont know the specifics or if this would limit independent expenditures in Davis. It would help fix all of the issues we have with who is being bought by who. If we had publicly financed campaigns we would not have to worry about where people get their money. The city will have a much more open discussion on policy and where they stand. As long as people are able to show that they can get the support of a significant amount of voters, they should all be put on par with the public to decide.

  97. tansey thomas

    “You must be reading some other blog, Tansey, to draw that conclusion. Anon 5/4/08 9:59 AM”

    It certainly came across as scary stuff to me. Glad it’s not true.

  98. tansey thomas

    “You must be reading some other blog, Tansey, to draw that conclusion. Anon 5/4/08 9:59 AM”

    It certainly came across as scary stuff to me. Glad it’s not true.

  99. tansey thomas

    “You must be reading some other blog, Tansey, to draw that conclusion. Anon 5/4/08 9:59 AM”

    It certainly came across as scary stuff to me. Glad it’s not true.

  100. tansey thomas

    “You must be reading some other blog, Tansey, to draw that conclusion. Anon 5/4/08 9:59 AM”

    It certainly came across as scary stuff to me. Glad it’s not true.

  101. campaign watcher

    65% of the Davis Firefighters contributing to the last city council election don’t live in Davis. 50% of them didn’t even live in Yolo County. Why are we allowing a block of city employees who live out of town to influence our city’s elections so much merely to ensure that they get what they want in their contracts? We should make anyone in an supervisory position within the Fire Department actually live in Davis.

    Do we really believe that voting for Saylor or Sousa or Vergis over other candidates has that much of an influence over how the fire fighters do the jobs that the City hired them to do? Do we believe that the fire fighters will do less of a good job if we voted for Greenwald or Escamilla-Greenwald or Roy? Isn’t that what they are implying?

    It is rather disturbing that the criticism and community disgust of fire fighters’ political involvement in local elections seems to be considered as not appreciating their essential role in the community as first responders to in crisis situations. The fire fighters really are not connected to the community to consider and to equate one with the other.

  102. campaign watcher

    65% of the Davis Firefighters contributing to the last city council election don’t live in Davis. 50% of them didn’t even live in Yolo County. Why are we allowing a block of city employees who live out of town to influence our city’s elections so much merely to ensure that they get what they want in their contracts? We should make anyone in an supervisory position within the Fire Department actually live in Davis.

    Do we really believe that voting for Saylor or Sousa or Vergis over other candidates has that much of an influence over how the fire fighters do the jobs that the City hired them to do? Do we believe that the fire fighters will do less of a good job if we voted for Greenwald or Escamilla-Greenwald or Roy? Isn’t that what they are implying?

    It is rather disturbing that the criticism and community disgust of fire fighters’ political involvement in local elections seems to be considered as not appreciating their essential role in the community as first responders to in crisis situations. The fire fighters really are not connected to the community to consider and to equate one with the other.

  103. campaign watcher

    65% of the Davis Firefighters contributing to the last city council election don’t live in Davis. 50% of them didn’t even live in Yolo County. Why are we allowing a block of city employees who live out of town to influence our city’s elections so much merely to ensure that they get what they want in their contracts? We should make anyone in an supervisory position within the Fire Department actually live in Davis.

    Do we really believe that voting for Saylor or Sousa or Vergis over other candidates has that much of an influence over how the fire fighters do the jobs that the City hired them to do? Do we believe that the fire fighters will do less of a good job if we voted for Greenwald or Escamilla-Greenwald or Roy? Isn’t that what they are implying?

    It is rather disturbing that the criticism and community disgust of fire fighters’ political involvement in local elections seems to be considered as not appreciating their essential role in the community as first responders to in crisis situations. The fire fighters really are not connected to the community to consider and to equate one with the other.

  104. campaign watcher

    65% of the Davis Firefighters contributing to the last city council election don’t live in Davis. 50% of them didn’t even live in Yolo County. Why are we allowing a block of city employees who live out of town to influence our city’s elections so much merely to ensure that they get what they want in their contracts? We should make anyone in an supervisory position within the Fire Department actually live in Davis.

    Do we really believe that voting for Saylor or Sousa or Vergis over other candidates has that much of an influence over how the fire fighters do the jobs that the City hired them to do? Do we believe that the fire fighters will do less of a good job if we voted for Greenwald or Escamilla-Greenwald or Roy? Isn’t that what they are implying?

    It is rather disturbing that the criticism and community disgust of fire fighters’ political involvement in local elections seems to be considered as not appreciating their essential role in the community as first responders to in crisis situations. The fire fighters really are not connected to the community to consider and to equate one with the other.

  105. Anonymous

    When are the firefighters going to learn? At least starting with the Mace Ranch expansion, developers and the their City Council friends have been promising the firefighters a new station… how many years has it been?

  106. Anonymous

    When are the firefighters going to learn? At least starting with the Mace Ranch expansion, developers and the their City Council friends have been promising the firefighters a new station… how many years has it been?

  107. Anonymous

    When are the firefighters going to learn? At least starting with the Mace Ranch expansion, developers and the their City Council friends have been promising the firefighters a new station… how many years has it been?

  108. Anonymous

    When are the firefighters going to learn? At least starting with the Mace Ranch expansion, developers and the their City Council friends have been promising the firefighters a new station… how many years has it been?

  109. Sue Greenwald

    If my memory serves me right, a firefighter full step 1 will make a total compensation of $146,700 this July 1, not counting overtime. They reach this compensation level after only a few years of work, in their mid-twenties.

    Our nine fire captains will make a total compensation of about $167,000 each, plus overtime. Last time I looked, in 2005 the fire captains drew an average of $30,000 each in overtime.

    I did not vote for this package – I voted against it in closed session, and when it came to open session, Ted Puntillo was chairing the meeting, and he changed the order of the items when I briefly left the room to attend to personal business, because he wanted a unanimous vote. I didn’t care, because everyone knew where I stood. It passed 4-0.

    Now, the firefighters want to create four new higher levels of pay – three battalion chief positions, and an assistant chief position. This would add no new personnel, but would increase the pay substantially for four firefighters. The department insists that these be union positions, qualifying them for overtime.

    Also significant is the fact that retirement is based only one year’s highest salary. This means that many firefighters could rotate through this position at the age of 49, thus retiring at 50 at an even higher lifetime salary.

    If my memory serves me right, this rank and pay increase will cost the city $400,000 a year annually, without adding a single firefighter.

    Saylor and Souza voted for this increase. Lamar Heystek and I voted against it. Ruth also voted against it, but said “I will probably vote for it later”. So you see, a lot is at stake in this election for both the firefighters and the city.

    I should add that the head of the firefighters union continually claims that firefighters live an average of only 7 years after they retire. Yet the only reputable study I could find was paid for by the firefighters union of Hamburg Germany, and showed that firefighters have a greater life expectancy than average at retirement, presumably because they are healthier to begin with.

    Firefighting is a dangerous job, as are a number of other professions. I would favor very generous life insurance benefits for the families of firefighters killed in the course of performing their jobs. I have always favored generous compensation as well, but there have to be limits.

    Not only do these firefighter union demands threaten the city’s budget, but they also make it harder for us to pay living wages for other workers, hire contract workers to city positions, give pay increases to lower paid workers, and avoid ultimately transitioning to a two-tiered system with the younger generation of recently employed workers get much lower benefits than older, existing workers. A two-tiered system would be the least progressive, and least fair outcome.

    I have heard that the firefighters in Fairfield managed to have all the City Councilmembers of Fairfield who opposed their demands defeated in a recent election. Out of control firefighter compensation has become a state-wide problem, and is in large part responsible for a wave of budget crises and even bankruptcies of cities throughout the state.

  110. Sue Greenwald

    If my memory serves me right, a firefighter full step 1 will make a total compensation of $146,700 this July 1, not counting overtime. They reach this compensation level after only a few years of work, in their mid-twenties.

    Our nine fire captains will make a total compensation of about $167,000 each, plus overtime. Last time I looked, in 2005 the fire captains drew an average of $30,000 each in overtime.

    I did not vote for this package – I voted against it in closed session, and when it came to open session, Ted Puntillo was chairing the meeting, and he changed the order of the items when I briefly left the room to attend to personal business, because he wanted a unanimous vote. I didn’t care, because everyone knew where I stood. It passed 4-0.

    Now, the firefighters want to create four new higher levels of pay – three battalion chief positions, and an assistant chief position. This would add no new personnel, but would increase the pay substantially for four firefighters. The department insists that these be union positions, qualifying them for overtime.

    Also significant is the fact that retirement is based only one year’s highest salary. This means that many firefighters could rotate through this position at the age of 49, thus retiring at 50 at an even higher lifetime salary.

    If my memory serves me right, this rank and pay increase will cost the city $400,000 a year annually, without adding a single firefighter.

    Saylor and Souza voted for this increase. Lamar Heystek and I voted against it. Ruth also voted against it, but said “I will probably vote for it later”. So you see, a lot is at stake in this election for both the firefighters and the city.

    I should add that the head of the firefighters union continually claims that firefighters live an average of only 7 years after they retire. Yet the only reputable study I could find was paid for by the firefighters union of Hamburg Germany, and showed that firefighters have a greater life expectancy than average at retirement, presumably because they are healthier to begin with.

    Firefighting is a dangerous job, as are a number of other professions. I would favor very generous life insurance benefits for the families of firefighters killed in the course of performing their jobs. I have always favored generous compensation as well, but there have to be limits.

    Not only do these firefighter union demands threaten the city’s budget, but they also make it harder for us to pay living wages for other workers, hire contract workers to city positions, give pay increases to lower paid workers, and avoid ultimately transitioning to a two-tiered system with the younger generation of recently employed workers get much lower benefits than older, existing workers. A two-tiered system would be the least progressive, and least fair outcome.

    I have heard that the firefighters in Fairfield managed to have all the City Councilmembers of Fairfield who opposed their demands defeated in a recent election. Out of control firefighter compensation has become a state-wide problem, and is in large part responsible for a wave of budget crises and even bankruptcies of cities throughout the state.

  111. Sue Greenwald

    If my memory serves me right, a firefighter full step 1 will make a total compensation of $146,700 this July 1, not counting overtime. They reach this compensation level after only a few years of work, in their mid-twenties.

    Our nine fire captains will make a total compensation of about $167,000 each, plus overtime. Last time I looked, in 2005 the fire captains drew an average of $30,000 each in overtime.

    I did not vote for this package – I voted against it in closed session, and when it came to open session, Ted Puntillo was chairing the meeting, and he changed the order of the items when I briefly left the room to attend to personal business, because he wanted a unanimous vote. I didn’t care, because everyone knew where I stood. It passed 4-0.

    Now, the firefighters want to create four new higher levels of pay – three battalion chief positions, and an assistant chief position. This would add no new personnel, but would increase the pay substantially for four firefighters. The department insists that these be union positions, qualifying them for overtime.

    Also significant is the fact that retirement is based only one year’s highest salary. This means that many firefighters could rotate through this position at the age of 49, thus retiring at 50 at an even higher lifetime salary.

    If my memory serves me right, this rank and pay increase will cost the city $400,000 a year annually, without adding a single firefighter.

    Saylor and Souza voted for this increase. Lamar Heystek and I voted against it. Ruth also voted against it, but said “I will probably vote for it later”. So you see, a lot is at stake in this election for both the firefighters and the city.

    I should add that the head of the firefighters union continually claims that firefighters live an average of only 7 years after they retire. Yet the only reputable study I could find was paid for by the firefighters union of Hamburg Germany, and showed that firefighters have a greater life expectancy than average at retirement, presumably because they are healthier to begin with.

    Firefighting is a dangerous job, as are a number of other professions. I would favor very generous life insurance benefits for the families of firefighters killed in the course of performing their jobs. I have always favored generous compensation as well, but there have to be limits.

    Not only do these firefighter union demands threaten the city’s budget, but they also make it harder for us to pay living wages for other workers, hire contract workers to city positions, give pay increases to lower paid workers, and avoid ultimately transitioning to a two-tiered system with the younger generation of recently employed workers get much lower benefits than older, existing workers. A two-tiered system would be the least progressive, and least fair outcome.

    I have heard that the firefighters in Fairfield managed to have all the City Councilmembers of Fairfield who opposed their demands defeated in a recent election. Out of control firefighter compensation has become a state-wide problem, and is in large part responsible for a wave of budget crises and even bankruptcies of cities throughout the state.

  112. Sue Greenwald

    If my memory serves me right, a firefighter full step 1 will make a total compensation of $146,700 this July 1, not counting overtime. They reach this compensation level after only a few years of work, in their mid-twenties.

    Our nine fire captains will make a total compensation of about $167,000 each, plus overtime. Last time I looked, in 2005 the fire captains drew an average of $30,000 each in overtime.

    I did not vote for this package – I voted against it in closed session, and when it came to open session, Ted Puntillo was chairing the meeting, and he changed the order of the items when I briefly left the room to attend to personal business, because he wanted a unanimous vote. I didn’t care, because everyone knew where I stood. It passed 4-0.

    Now, the firefighters want to create four new higher levels of pay – three battalion chief positions, and an assistant chief position. This would add no new personnel, but would increase the pay substantially for four firefighters. The department insists that these be union positions, qualifying them for overtime.

    Also significant is the fact that retirement is based only one year’s highest salary. This means that many firefighters could rotate through this position at the age of 49, thus retiring at 50 at an even higher lifetime salary.

    If my memory serves me right, this rank and pay increase will cost the city $400,000 a year annually, without adding a single firefighter.

    Saylor and Souza voted for this increase. Lamar Heystek and I voted against it. Ruth also voted against it, but said “I will probably vote for it later”. So you see, a lot is at stake in this election for both the firefighters and the city.

    I should add that the head of the firefighters union continually claims that firefighters live an average of only 7 years after they retire. Yet the only reputable study I could find was paid for by the firefighters union of Hamburg Germany, and showed that firefighters have a greater life expectancy than average at retirement, presumably because they are healthier to begin with.

    Firefighting is a dangerous job, as are a number of other professions. I would favor very generous life insurance benefits for the families of firefighters killed in the course of performing their jobs. I have always favored generous compensation as well, but there have to be limits.

    Not only do these firefighter union demands threaten the city’s budget, but they also make it harder for us to pay living wages for other workers, hire contract workers to city positions, give pay increases to lower paid workers, and avoid ultimately transitioning to a two-tiered system with the younger generation of recently employed workers get much lower benefits than older, existing workers. A two-tiered system would be the least progressive, and least fair outcome.

    I have heard that the firefighters in Fairfield managed to have all the City Councilmembers of Fairfield who opposed their demands defeated in a recent election. Out of control firefighter compensation has become a state-wide problem, and is in large part responsible for a wave of budget crises and even bankruptcies of cities throughout the state.

  113. Anonymous

    Ron Glick:

    Sue Greenwald sounds like a Republican on labor issues? What have you been smoking?

    Sue voted for living wage and for earlier retirement for blue-collar workers than for desk workers.

    Your candidate, Steve Souza, after much posturing, voted against the living wage and argued at a forum for a two-tiered system which would pay for the benefits of the older generation of workers on the backs of the younger generation of workers.

  114. Anonymous

    Ron Glick:

    Sue Greenwald sounds like a Republican on labor issues? What have you been smoking?

    Sue voted for living wage and for earlier retirement for blue-collar workers than for desk workers.

    Your candidate, Steve Souza, after much posturing, voted against the living wage and argued at a forum for a two-tiered system which would pay for the benefits of the older generation of workers on the backs of the younger generation of workers.

  115. Anonymous

    Ron Glick:

    Sue Greenwald sounds like a Republican on labor issues? What have you been smoking?

    Sue voted for living wage and for earlier retirement for blue-collar workers than for desk workers.

    Your candidate, Steve Souza, after much posturing, voted against the living wage and argued at a forum for a two-tiered system which would pay for the benefits of the older generation of workers on the backs of the younger generation of workers.

  116. Anonymous

    Ron Glick:

    Sue Greenwald sounds like a Republican on labor issues? What have you been smoking?

    Sue voted for living wage and for earlier retirement for blue-collar workers than for desk workers.

    Your candidate, Steve Souza, after much posturing, voted against the living wage and argued at a forum for a two-tiered system which would pay for the benefits of the older generation of workers on the backs of the younger generation of workers.

  117. Sue Greenwald

    As to the issue of “needing to be competitive — when the fire contract was up for renewal, I asked human resources how many applicants we had for the last fire position opened, and was told “125 applicants before noon on the day the position opened”.

    While we have some positions where recruitment is a problem, firefighter positions isn’t one of them.

  118. Sue Greenwald

    As to the issue of “needing to be competitive — when the fire contract was up for renewal, I asked human resources how many applicants we had for the last fire position opened, and was told “125 applicants before noon on the day the position opened”.

    While we have some positions where recruitment is a problem, firefighter positions isn’t one of them.

  119. Sue Greenwald

    As to the issue of “needing to be competitive — when the fire contract was up for renewal, I asked human resources how many applicants we had for the last fire position opened, and was told “125 applicants before noon on the day the position opened”.

    While we have some positions where recruitment is a problem, firefighter positions isn’t one of them.

  120. Sue Greenwald

    As to the issue of “needing to be competitive — when the fire contract was up for renewal, I asked human resources how many applicants we had for the last fire position opened, and was told “125 applicants before noon on the day the position opened”.

    While we have some positions where recruitment is a problem, firefighter positions isn’t one of them.

  121. Anonymous

    The City of Davis needs to take a good long look at Sac Metro Fire District if it wants to see the future. They have a huge deficit this year, and an even bigger one next year mainly because of their bloated payroll.

    The City also needs to look at the call statistics for the fire department for the last five years and see what percentage of the runs were non-fire, non-life threatening. The definition of a city fire fighter has changed in the last few decades, and I would bet that fewer than 20% of their trips involved anything burning.

    If ’50 is the new 40′ then the retirement age should be changed. They can have 3% at 60, based on a MEAN (not an average) of their entire career, not the last year. This will still allow them to retire out of state (as so many of them do) on a very comfortable salary without bankrupting the city. It wouldn’t hurt to require them to take the CPAT exam every two years either. We’re paying them to be fit and healthy, might as well hold them to it.

    I have the utmost respect for the work of the police and firefighters in the City of Davis, esepecially the rank and file who actually do the work, but that doesn’t mean that I want the City Council to look the other way while these particular employees stick their fingers into the bank account. We need to elect councilmembers who will work towards a fair, respectable contract that won’t bankrupt our lovely city.

    Thanks for the report David. At least the firefighters let the unendorsed candidates know what was coming up front. Saylor and Vergis are NOT getting my vote.

    Diamond

  122. Anonymous

    The City of Davis needs to take a good long look at Sac Metro Fire District if it wants to see the future. They have a huge deficit this year, and an even bigger one next year mainly because of their bloated payroll.

    The City also needs to look at the call statistics for the fire department for the last five years and see what percentage of the runs were non-fire, non-life threatening. The definition of a city fire fighter has changed in the last few decades, and I would bet that fewer than 20% of their trips involved anything burning.

    If ’50 is the new 40′ then the retirement age should be changed. They can have 3% at 60, based on a MEAN (not an average) of their entire career, not the last year. This will still allow them to retire out of state (as so many of them do) on a very comfortable salary without bankrupting the city. It wouldn’t hurt to require them to take the CPAT exam every two years either. We’re paying them to be fit and healthy, might as well hold them to it.

    I have the utmost respect for the work of the police and firefighters in the City of Davis, esepecially the rank and file who actually do the work, but that doesn’t mean that I want the City Council to look the other way while these particular employees stick their fingers into the bank account. We need to elect councilmembers who will work towards a fair, respectable contract that won’t bankrupt our lovely city.

    Thanks for the report David. At least the firefighters let the unendorsed candidates know what was coming up front. Saylor and Vergis are NOT getting my vote.

    Diamond

  123. Anonymous

    The City of Davis needs to take a good long look at Sac Metro Fire District if it wants to see the future. They have a huge deficit this year, and an even bigger one next year mainly because of their bloated payroll.

    The City also needs to look at the call statistics for the fire department for the last five years and see what percentage of the runs were non-fire, non-life threatening. The definition of a city fire fighter has changed in the last few decades, and I would bet that fewer than 20% of their trips involved anything burning.

    If ’50 is the new 40′ then the retirement age should be changed. They can have 3% at 60, based on a MEAN (not an average) of their entire career, not the last year. This will still allow them to retire out of state (as so many of them do) on a very comfortable salary without bankrupting the city. It wouldn’t hurt to require them to take the CPAT exam every two years either. We’re paying them to be fit and healthy, might as well hold them to it.

    I have the utmost respect for the work of the police and firefighters in the City of Davis, esepecially the rank and file who actually do the work, but that doesn’t mean that I want the City Council to look the other way while these particular employees stick their fingers into the bank account. We need to elect councilmembers who will work towards a fair, respectable contract that won’t bankrupt our lovely city.

    Thanks for the report David. At least the firefighters let the unendorsed candidates know what was coming up front. Saylor and Vergis are NOT getting my vote.

    Diamond

  124. Anonymous

    The City of Davis needs to take a good long look at Sac Metro Fire District if it wants to see the future. They have a huge deficit this year, and an even bigger one next year mainly because of their bloated payroll.

    The City also needs to look at the call statistics for the fire department for the last five years and see what percentage of the runs were non-fire, non-life threatening. The definition of a city fire fighter has changed in the last few decades, and I would bet that fewer than 20% of their trips involved anything burning.

    If ’50 is the new 40′ then the retirement age should be changed. They can have 3% at 60, based on a MEAN (not an average) of their entire career, not the last year. This will still allow them to retire out of state (as so many of them do) on a very comfortable salary without bankrupting the city. It wouldn’t hurt to require them to take the CPAT exam every two years either. We’re paying them to be fit and healthy, might as well hold them to it.

    I have the utmost respect for the work of the police and firefighters in the City of Davis, esepecially the rank and file who actually do the work, but that doesn’t mean that I want the City Council to look the other way while these particular employees stick their fingers into the bank account. We need to elect councilmembers who will work towards a fair, respectable contract that won’t bankrupt our lovely city.

    Thanks for the report David. At least the firefighters let the unendorsed candidates know what was coming up front. Saylor and Vergis are NOT getting my vote.

    Diamond

  125. Anonymous

    My point is that someone has to put away a lot of money to guarantee those benefits.

    Isn’t that the problem? it has been teated as an unfunded liability or at least it was until very recently.

    Why is all of the focus on Fire when the Police get the same benefit?

  126. Anonymous

    My point is that someone has to put away a lot of money to guarantee those benefits.

    Isn’t that the problem? it has been teated as an unfunded liability or at least it was until very recently.

    Why is all of the focus on Fire when the Police get the same benefit?

  127. Anonymous

    My point is that someone has to put away a lot of money to guarantee those benefits.

    Isn’t that the problem? it has been teated as an unfunded liability or at least it was until very recently.

    Why is all of the focus on Fire when the Police get the same benefit?

  128. Anonymous

    My point is that someone has to put away a lot of money to guarantee those benefits.

    Isn’t that the problem? it has been teated as an unfunded liability or at least it was until very recently.

    Why is all of the focus on Fire when the Police get the same benefit?

  129. Anonymous

    I’d say Davis is grossly overpaying.

    http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos158.htm

    Firefighters Earnings:

    Median annual earnings of fire fighters were $41,190 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $29,550 and $54,120. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $20,660, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $66,140. Median annual earnings were $41,600 in local government, $41,070 in the Federal Government, and $37,000 in State governments.

    Median annual earnings of first-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers were $62,900 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $50,180 and $79,060. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $36,820, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $97,820. First-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers employed in local government earned a median of about $64,070 a year.

    Median annual earnings of fire inspectors and investigators were $48,050 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $36,960 and $61,160 a year. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $29,840, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $74,930. Fire inspectors and investigators employed in local government earned a median of about $49,690 a year.

    According to the International City-County Management Association, average salaries in 2006 for sworn full-time positions were as follows:

    Minimum annual base salary Maximum annual base salary
    Fire chief $73,435 $95,271
    Deputy chief 66,420 84,284
    Assistant fire chief 61,887 78,914
    Battalion chief 62,199 78,611
    Fire captain 51,808 62,785
    Fire lieutenant 47,469 56,511
    Fire prevention/code inspector 45,951 58,349
    Engineer 43,232 56,045

    Fire fighters who average more than a certain number of work hours per week are required to be paid overtime. The hours threshold is determined by the department. Fire fighters often earn overtime for working extra shifts to maintain minimum staffing levels or during special emergencies.

    Fire fighters receive benefits that usually include medical and liability insurance, vacation and sick leave, and some paid holidays. Almost all fire departments provide protective clothing (helmets, boots, and coats) and breathing apparatus, and many also provide dress uniforms. Fire fighters generally are covered by pension plans, often providing retirement at half pay after 25 years of service or if the individual is disabled in the line of duty.

  130. Anonymous

    I’d say Davis is grossly overpaying.

    http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos158.htm

    Firefighters Earnings:

    Median annual earnings of fire fighters were $41,190 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $29,550 and $54,120. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $20,660, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $66,140. Median annual earnings were $41,600 in local government, $41,070 in the Federal Government, and $37,000 in State governments.

    Median annual earnings of first-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers were $62,900 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $50,180 and $79,060. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $36,820, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $97,820. First-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers employed in local government earned a median of about $64,070 a year.

    Median annual earnings of fire inspectors and investigators were $48,050 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $36,960 and $61,160 a year. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $29,840, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $74,930. Fire inspectors and investigators employed in local government earned a median of about $49,690 a year.

    According to the International City-County Management Association, average salaries in 2006 for sworn full-time positions were as follows:

    Minimum annual base salary Maximum annual base salary
    Fire chief $73,435 $95,271
    Deputy chief 66,420 84,284
    Assistant fire chief 61,887 78,914
    Battalion chief 62,199 78,611
    Fire captain 51,808 62,785
    Fire lieutenant 47,469 56,511
    Fire prevention/code inspector 45,951 58,349
    Engineer 43,232 56,045

    Fire fighters who average more than a certain number of work hours per week are required to be paid overtime. The hours threshold is determined by the department. Fire fighters often earn overtime for working extra shifts to maintain minimum staffing levels or during special emergencies.

    Fire fighters receive benefits that usually include medical and liability insurance, vacation and sick leave, and some paid holidays. Almost all fire departments provide protective clothing (helmets, boots, and coats) and breathing apparatus, and many also provide dress uniforms. Fire fighters generally are covered by pension plans, often providing retirement at half pay after 25 years of service or if the individual is disabled in the line of duty.

  131. Anonymous

    I’d say Davis is grossly overpaying.

    http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos158.htm

    Firefighters Earnings:

    Median annual earnings of fire fighters were $41,190 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $29,550 and $54,120. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $20,660, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $66,140. Median annual earnings were $41,600 in local government, $41,070 in the Federal Government, and $37,000 in State governments.

    Median annual earnings of first-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers were $62,900 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $50,180 and $79,060. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $36,820, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $97,820. First-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers employed in local government earned a median of about $64,070 a year.

    Median annual earnings of fire inspectors and investigators were $48,050 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $36,960 and $61,160 a year. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $29,840, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $74,930. Fire inspectors and investigators employed in local government earned a median of about $49,690 a year.

    According to the International City-County Management Association, average salaries in 2006 for sworn full-time positions were as follows:

    Minimum annual base salary Maximum annual base salary
    Fire chief $73,435 $95,271
    Deputy chief 66,420 84,284
    Assistant fire chief 61,887 78,914
    Battalion chief 62,199 78,611
    Fire captain 51,808 62,785
    Fire lieutenant 47,469 56,511
    Fire prevention/code inspector 45,951 58,349
    Engineer 43,232 56,045

    Fire fighters who average more than a certain number of work hours per week are required to be paid overtime. The hours threshold is determined by the department. Fire fighters often earn overtime for working extra shifts to maintain minimum staffing levels or during special emergencies.

    Fire fighters receive benefits that usually include medical and liability insurance, vacation and sick leave, and some paid holidays. Almost all fire departments provide protective clothing (helmets, boots, and coats) and breathing apparatus, and many also provide dress uniforms. Fire fighters generally are covered by pension plans, often providing retirement at half pay after 25 years of service or if the individual is disabled in the line of duty.

  132. Anonymous

    I’d say Davis is grossly overpaying.

    http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos158.htm

    Firefighters Earnings:

    Median annual earnings of fire fighters were $41,190 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $29,550 and $54,120. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $20,660, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $66,140. Median annual earnings were $41,600 in local government, $41,070 in the Federal Government, and $37,000 in State governments.

    Median annual earnings of first-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers were $62,900 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $50,180 and $79,060. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $36,820, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $97,820. First-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers employed in local government earned a median of about $64,070 a year.

    Median annual earnings of fire inspectors and investigators were $48,050 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $36,960 and $61,160 a year. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $29,840, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $74,930. Fire inspectors and investigators employed in local government earned a median of about $49,690 a year.

    According to the International City-County Management Association, average salaries in 2006 for sworn full-time positions were as follows:

    Minimum annual base salary Maximum annual base salary
    Fire chief $73,435 $95,271
    Deputy chief 66,420 84,284
    Assistant fire chief 61,887 78,914
    Battalion chief 62,199 78,611
    Fire captain 51,808 62,785
    Fire lieutenant 47,469 56,511
    Fire prevention/code inspector 45,951 58,349
    Engineer 43,232 56,045

    Fire fighters who average more than a certain number of work hours per week are required to be paid overtime. The hours threshold is determined by the department. Fire fighters often earn overtime for working extra shifts to maintain minimum staffing levels or during special emergencies.

    Fire fighters receive benefits that usually include medical and liability insurance, vacation and sick leave, and some paid holidays. Almost all fire departments provide protective clothing (helmets, boots, and coats) and breathing apparatus, and many also provide dress uniforms. Fire fighters generally are covered by pension plans, often providing retirement at half pay after 25 years of service or if the individual is disabled in the line of duty.

  133. Anonymous

    To Sue Greenwald:

    With respect to your comment on being competitive, you want to look at the competitive salaries in neighboring areas–not the competition for the job itself. It’s less expensive to retain employees than to have to hire new ones (and train them on the specifics to the community).

    If you are too far out of line with “competitive” salaries, your firefighters are going to find work elsewhere.

    That’s what I meant by competitive–that’s what “competitive” means in a job ad.

  134. Anonymous

    To Sue Greenwald:

    With respect to your comment on being competitive, you want to look at the competitive salaries in neighboring areas–not the competition for the job itself. It’s less expensive to retain employees than to have to hire new ones (and train them on the specifics to the community).

    If you are too far out of line with “competitive” salaries, your firefighters are going to find work elsewhere.

    That’s what I meant by competitive–that’s what “competitive” means in a job ad.

  135. Anonymous

    To Sue Greenwald:

    With respect to your comment on being competitive, you want to look at the competitive salaries in neighboring areas–not the competition for the job itself. It’s less expensive to retain employees than to have to hire new ones (and train them on the specifics to the community).

    If you are too far out of line with “competitive” salaries, your firefighters are going to find work elsewhere.

    That’s what I meant by competitive–that’s what “competitive” means in a job ad.

  136. Anonymous

    To Sue Greenwald:

    With respect to your comment on being competitive, you want to look at the competitive salaries in neighboring areas–not the competition for the job itself. It’s less expensive to retain employees than to have to hire new ones (and train them on the specifics to the community).

    If you are too far out of line with “competitive” salaries, your firefighters are going to find work elsewhere.

    That’s what I meant by competitive–that’s what “competitive” means in a job ad.

  137. Perspective

    To anon at 3:15 pm:

    You can’t take a national average for wages and draw your conclusion for California just as you can’t really compare Northern California and Southern California’s costs of living. For example, in southern states, the median household (or per capita) income in at least three states is about $6,000 less that than the national average. California is more expensive than other states; the salaries will be higher. For example, most California engineers, I would imagine, make more than the top-end of your salary schedule for the NATIONAL AVERAGE.

    Your conclusion may still be valid, but not supported by that statistical snapshot. Whether Davis firefighters are overpaid is a question that must be answered using overall compensation packages in like or similar communities in California.

  138. Perspective

    To anon at 3:15 pm:

    You can’t take a national average for wages and draw your conclusion for California just as you can’t really compare Northern California and Southern California’s costs of living. For example, in southern states, the median household (or per capita) income in at least three states is about $6,000 less that than the national average. California is more expensive than other states; the salaries will be higher. For example, most California engineers, I would imagine, make more than the top-end of your salary schedule for the NATIONAL AVERAGE.

    Your conclusion may still be valid, but not supported by that statistical snapshot. Whether Davis firefighters are overpaid is a question that must be answered using overall compensation packages in like or similar communities in California.

  139. Perspective

    To anon at 3:15 pm:

    You can’t take a national average for wages and draw your conclusion for California just as you can’t really compare Northern California and Southern California’s costs of living. For example, in southern states, the median household (or per capita) income in at least three states is about $6,000 less that than the national average. California is more expensive than other states; the salaries will be higher. For example, most California engineers, I would imagine, make more than the top-end of your salary schedule for the NATIONAL AVERAGE.

    Your conclusion may still be valid, but not supported by that statistical snapshot. Whether Davis firefighters are overpaid is a question that must be answered using overall compensation packages in like or similar communities in California.

  140. Perspective

    To anon at 3:15 pm:

    You can’t take a national average for wages and draw your conclusion for California just as you can’t really compare Northern California and Southern California’s costs of living. For example, in southern states, the median household (or per capita) income in at least three states is about $6,000 less that than the national average. California is more expensive than other states; the salaries will be higher. For example, most California engineers, I would imagine, make more than the top-end of your salary schedule for the NATIONAL AVERAGE.

    Your conclusion may still be valid, but not supported by that statistical snapshot. Whether Davis firefighters are overpaid is a question that must be answered using overall compensation packages in like or similar communities in California.

  141. Anonymous

    CA may be more expensive than the national average but it is not 2-3times more expensive. All of CA is overpaying for fire departments who 9 times out of 10 are out on calls that paramedics could handle by themselves.

    I know several volunteer fire fighters and would take my chances with these “Billy Bob’s” any day rather than bankrupt the city.

  142. Anonymous

    CA may be more expensive than the national average but it is not 2-3times more expensive. All of CA is overpaying for fire departments who 9 times out of 10 are out on calls that paramedics could handle by themselves.

    I know several volunteer fire fighters and would take my chances with these “Billy Bob’s” any day rather than bankrupt the city.

  143. Anonymous

    CA may be more expensive than the national average but it is not 2-3times more expensive. All of CA is overpaying for fire departments who 9 times out of 10 are out on calls that paramedics could handle by themselves.

    I know several volunteer fire fighters and would take my chances with these “Billy Bob’s” any day rather than bankrupt the city.

  144. Anonymous

    CA may be more expensive than the national average but it is not 2-3times more expensive. All of CA is overpaying for fire departments who 9 times out of 10 are out on calls that paramedics could handle by themselves.

    I know several volunteer fire fighters and would take my chances with these “Billy Bob’s” any day rather than bankrupt the city.

  145. Ron

    Isn’t it odd that the Mayor would blame Ted Puntillo for her failure to vote on the firefighter contract? Isn’t it her responsibility to be there to vote? She claims that everone knew where she stood so she didn’t really care that she wasn’t there for the vote. So, why then, would she be surprised to find out that the firefighters are not supporting her.

    Sue Greenwald reminds me of an old Rockefeller Republican, okay on social issues but conservative fiscally.

    I remember when she opposed a proposition to lower the number of votes required to pass a budget in Sacramento. Of course the two thirds requirement has been the greatest impediment to solving the state’s perennial fiscal problems. The same fiscal problems that are exacerbating the problems in the Davis Schools.

    She has been a staunch opponent to the growth of Davis. No growth policies by their nature are discriminatory but do serve to keep property values high. If you want to argue that these policies are about the environment this too would not differentiate her from Rockefeller Republicans who were much better on the environment then Reagan or the Bush family. Anyway, here again on housing the dearth of construction in Davis has raised home values to the point where young families can’t affort to move here and has led to declining enrollment that has also hurt the schools.

    This is an odd election because the traditional democrats who favor growth and development as an engine of the economy are not very good on social issues. At the same time the so called progressives(what they are progressive about is a wonder to me)who are good on social issues are terrible on growth and development. What is a person to do?

  146. Ron

    Isn’t it odd that the Mayor would blame Ted Puntillo for her failure to vote on the firefighter contract? Isn’t it her responsibility to be there to vote? She claims that everone knew where she stood so she didn’t really care that she wasn’t there for the vote. So, why then, would she be surprised to find out that the firefighters are not supporting her.

    Sue Greenwald reminds me of an old Rockefeller Republican, okay on social issues but conservative fiscally.

    I remember when she opposed a proposition to lower the number of votes required to pass a budget in Sacramento. Of course the two thirds requirement has been the greatest impediment to solving the state’s perennial fiscal problems. The same fiscal problems that are exacerbating the problems in the Davis Schools.

    She has been a staunch opponent to the growth of Davis. No growth policies by their nature are discriminatory but do serve to keep property values high. If you want to argue that these policies are about the environment this too would not differentiate her from Rockefeller Republicans who were much better on the environment then Reagan or the Bush family. Anyway, here again on housing the dearth of construction in Davis has raised home values to the point where young families can’t affort to move here and has led to declining enrollment that has also hurt the schools.

    This is an odd election because the traditional democrats who favor growth and development as an engine of the economy are not very good on social issues. At the same time the so called progressives(what they are progressive about is a wonder to me)who are good on social issues are terrible on growth and development. What is a person to do?

  147. Ron

    Isn’t it odd that the Mayor would blame Ted Puntillo for her failure to vote on the firefighter contract? Isn’t it her responsibility to be there to vote? She claims that everone knew where she stood so she didn’t really care that she wasn’t there for the vote. So, why then, would she be surprised to find out that the firefighters are not supporting her.

    Sue Greenwald reminds me of an old Rockefeller Republican, okay on social issues but conservative fiscally.

    I remember when she opposed a proposition to lower the number of votes required to pass a budget in Sacramento. Of course the two thirds requirement has been the greatest impediment to solving the state’s perennial fiscal problems. The same fiscal problems that are exacerbating the problems in the Davis Schools.

    She has been a staunch opponent to the growth of Davis. No growth policies by their nature are discriminatory but do serve to keep property values high. If you want to argue that these policies are about the environment this too would not differentiate her from Rockefeller Republicans who were much better on the environment then Reagan or the Bush family. Anyway, here again on housing the dearth of construction in Davis has raised home values to the point where young families can’t affort to move here and has led to declining enrollment that has also hurt the schools.

    This is an odd election because the traditional democrats who favor growth and development as an engine of the economy are not very good on social issues. At the same time the so called progressives(what they are progressive about is a wonder to me)who are good on social issues are terrible on growth and development. What is a person to do?

  148. Ron

    Isn’t it odd that the Mayor would blame Ted Puntillo for her failure to vote on the firefighter contract? Isn’t it her responsibility to be there to vote? She claims that everone knew where she stood so she didn’t really care that she wasn’t there for the vote. So, why then, would she be surprised to find out that the firefighters are not supporting her.

    Sue Greenwald reminds me of an old Rockefeller Republican, okay on social issues but conservative fiscally.

    I remember when she opposed a proposition to lower the number of votes required to pass a budget in Sacramento. Of course the two thirds requirement has been the greatest impediment to solving the state’s perennial fiscal problems. The same fiscal problems that are exacerbating the problems in the Davis Schools.

    She has been a staunch opponent to the growth of Davis. No growth policies by their nature are discriminatory but do serve to keep property values high. If you want to argue that these policies are about the environment this too would not differentiate her from Rockefeller Republicans who were much better on the environment then Reagan or the Bush family. Anyway, here again on housing the dearth of construction in Davis has raised home values to the point where young families can’t affort to move here and has led to declining enrollment that has also hurt the schools.

    This is an odd election because the traditional democrats who favor growth and development as an engine of the economy are not very good on social issues. At the same time the so called progressives(what they are progressive about is a wonder to me)who are good on social issues are terrible on growth and development. What is a person to do?

  149. Anonymous

    Ron… so who are you voting for in this upcoming Council election or have you now become “a pox on both your houses” drop-out political philospher??

  150. Anonymous

    Ron… so who are you voting for in this upcoming Council election or have you now become “a pox on both your houses” drop-out political philospher??

  151. Anonymous

    Ron… so who are you voting for in this upcoming Council election or have you now become “a pox on both your houses” drop-out political philospher??

  152. Anonymous

    Ron… so who are you voting for in this upcoming Council election or have you now become “a pox on both your houses” drop-out political philospher??

  153. Sue Greenwald

    Okay Ron,

    It was in my best interest to be the lone vote against the pay raise, rather than to have been reported absent. The firefighters knew where I stood, and as it was , I got no credit and all the blame.

    However, if I had tried to ask for a re-vote after Ted’s maneuver, I probably would have been voted down, and it would have looked petty of me.

    I have never hesitated to vote against unsustainable and unprogressive salary and benefits.

    I voted against early full retirement (age 55) for management and desk workers, but for early full retirement for our blue-collar workers, because the physical toll of doing manual makes early retirement sometimes necessary for those who do hard manual labor.

    I voted against fire battalion chief demands right before this election.

    I was not surprised that the firefighters are not supporting me, as you imply. I knew that would be the consequence for voting responsibly.

    You seem to be resentful because you think that building more houses will lower housing prices, presumably allowing you to buy a house in Davis. I would like you to be able to buy a house in Davis too. But I just think you are dead wrong that building more houses will lower the price of houses.

    As I have said before, the demand for houses in Davis has tended to overwhelm any reasonable increase in supply, and historically, data shows that increased building in Davis does not lower the differential between prices in Davis and elsewhere.

  154. Sue Greenwald

    Okay Ron,

    It was in my best interest to be the lone vote against the pay raise, rather than to have been reported absent. The firefighters knew where I stood, and as it was , I got no credit and all the blame.

    However, if I had tried to ask for a re-vote after Ted’s maneuver, I probably would have been voted down, and it would have looked petty of me.

    I have never hesitated to vote against unsustainable and unprogressive salary and benefits.

    I voted against early full retirement (age 55) for management and desk workers, but for early full retirement for our blue-collar workers, because the physical toll of doing manual makes early retirement sometimes necessary for those who do hard manual labor.

    I voted against fire battalion chief demands right before this election.

    I was not surprised that the firefighters are not supporting me, as you imply. I knew that would be the consequence for voting responsibly.

    You seem to be resentful because you think that building more houses will lower housing prices, presumably allowing you to buy a house in Davis. I would like you to be able to buy a house in Davis too. But I just think you are dead wrong that building more houses will lower the price of houses.

    As I have said before, the demand for houses in Davis has tended to overwhelm any reasonable increase in supply, and historically, data shows that increased building in Davis does not lower the differential between prices in Davis and elsewhere.

  155. Sue Greenwald

    Okay Ron,

    It was in my best interest to be the lone vote against the pay raise, rather than to have been reported absent. The firefighters knew where I stood, and as it was , I got no credit and all the blame.

    However, if I had tried to ask for a re-vote after Ted’s maneuver, I probably would have been voted down, and it would have looked petty of me.

    I have never hesitated to vote against unsustainable and unprogressive salary and benefits.

    I voted against early full retirement (age 55) for management and desk workers, but for early full retirement for our blue-collar workers, because the physical toll of doing manual makes early retirement sometimes necessary for those who do hard manual labor.

    I voted against fire battalion chief demands right before this election.

    I was not surprised that the firefighters are not supporting me, as you imply. I knew that would be the consequence for voting responsibly.

    You seem to be resentful because you think that building more houses will lower housing prices, presumably allowing you to buy a house in Davis. I would like you to be able to buy a house in Davis too. But I just think you are dead wrong that building more houses will lower the price of houses.

    As I have said before, the demand for houses in Davis has tended to overwhelm any reasonable increase in supply, and historically, data shows that increased building in Davis does not lower the differential between prices in Davis and elsewhere.

  156. Sue Greenwald

    Okay Ron,

    It was in my best interest to be the lone vote against the pay raise, rather than to have been reported absent. The firefighters knew where I stood, and as it was , I got no credit and all the blame.

    However, if I had tried to ask for a re-vote after Ted’s maneuver, I probably would have been voted down, and it would have looked petty of me.

    I have never hesitated to vote against unsustainable and unprogressive salary and benefits.

    I voted against early full retirement (age 55) for management and desk workers, but for early full retirement for our blue-collar workers, because the physical toll of doing manual makes early retirement sometimes necessary for those who do hard manual labor.

    I voted against fire battalion chief demands right before this election.

    I was not surprised that the firefighters are not supporting me, as you imply. I knew that would be the consequence for voting responsibly.

    You seem to be resentful because you think that building more houses will lower housing prices, presumably allowing you to buy a house in Davis. I would like you to be able to buy a house in Davis too. But I just think you are dead wrong that building more houses will lower the price of houses.

    As I have said before, the demand for houses in Davis has tended to overwhelm any reasonable increase in supply, and historically, data shows that increased building in Davis does not lower the differential between prices in Davis and elsewhere.

  157. Anonymous

    Sue Greenwald: “As I have said before, the demand for houses in Davis has tended to overwhelm any reasonable increase in supply, and historically, data shows that increased building in Davis does not lower the differential between prices in Davis and elsewhere.”

    But Sue, building more houses mitigates the price differential and the steep escalation of home prices. This is basic economics of supply and demand.

    Yes, Davis is perceived to be more attractive than other communities, so it will be more expensive. Yes, students who collectively rent homes can pay more than single- or double-income families. Yes–in spite of their troubles–the Davis schools have a longstanding reputation for being very good academically (no matter what the underlying cause is). But more houses means more competition and greater supply, which means house prices will be lower–as such was the case when the homes in Mace Ranch were being built. Houses were much less expensive in Mace Ranch under construction than they were downtown at the time. There was a greater supply of houses then in Mace Ranch as compared to downtown. THIS IS BASIC ECONOMICS–SUPPLY AND DEMAND. You misrepresent the full picture with your statement quoted above.

    Now your personal feelings and public policy on homes and growth are different issues altogether. So is the issue of the demand to warrant such building. Maybe there isn’t the demand now; maybe there is. But more houses will mitigate prices through greater supply. There’s no doubt about it.

  158. Anonymous

    Sue Greenwald: “As I have said before, the demand for houses in Davis has tended to overwhelm any reasonable increase in supply, and historically, data shows that increased building in Davis does not lower the differential between prices in Davis and elsewhere.”

    But Sue, building more houses mitigates the price differential and the steep escalation of home prices. This is basic economics of supply and demand.

    Yes, Davis is perceived to be more attractive than other communities, so it will be more expensive. Yes, students who collectively rent homes can pay more than single- or double-income families. Yes–in spite of their troubles–the Davis schools have a longstanding reputation for being very good academically (no matter what the underlying cause is). But more houses means more competition and greater supply, which means house prices will be lower–as such was the case when the homes in Mace Ranch were being built. Houses were much less expensive in Mace Ranch under construction than they were downtown at the time. There was a greater supply of houses then in Mace Ranch as compared to downtown. THIS IS BASIC ECONOMICS–SUPPLY AND DEMAND. You misrepresent the full picture with your statement quoted above.

    Now your personal feelings and public policy on homes and growth are different issues altogether. So is the issue of the demand to warrant such building. Maybe there isn’t the demand now; maybe there is. But more houses will mitigate prices through greater supply. There’s no doubt about it.

  159. Anonymous

    Sue Greenwald: “As I have said before, the demand for houses in Davis has tended to overwhelm any reasonable increase in supply, and historically, data shows that increased building in Davis does not lower the differential between prices in Davis and elsewhere.”

    But Sue, building more houses mitigates the price differential and the steep escalation of home prices. This is basic economics of supply and demand.

    Yes, Davis is perceived to be more attractive than other communities, so it will be more expensive. Yes, students who collectively rent homes can pay more than single- or double-income families. Yes–in spite of their troubles–the Davis schools have a longstanding reputation for being very good academically (no matter what the underlying cause is). But more houses means more competition and greater supply, which means house prices will be lower–as such was the case when the homes in Mace Ranch were being built. Houses were much less expensive in Mace Ranch under construction than they were downtown at the time. There was a greater supply of houses then in Mace Ranch as compared to downtown. THIS IS BASIC ECONOMICS–SUPPLY AND DEMAND. You misrepresent the full picture with your statement quoted above.

    Now your personal feelings and public policy on homes and growth are different issues altogether. So is the issue of the demand to warrant such building. Maybe there isn’t the demand now; maybe there is. But more houses will mitigate prices through greater supply. There’s no doubt about it.

  160. Anonymous

    Sue Greenwald: “As I have said before, the demand for houses in Davis has tended to overwhelm any reasonable increase in supply, and historically, data shows that increased building in Davis does not lower the differential between prices in Davis and elsewhere.”

    But Sue, building more houses mitigates the price differential and the steep escalation of home prices. This is basic economics of supply and demand.

    Yes, Davis is perceived to be more attractive than other communities, so it will be more expensive. Yes, students who collectively rent homes can pay more than single- or double-income families. Yes–in spite of their troubles–the Davis schools have a longstanding reputation for being very good academically (no matter what the underlying cause is). But more houses means more competition and greater supply, which means house prices will be lower–as such was the case when the homes in Mace Ranch were being built. Houses were much less expensive in Mace Ranch under construction than they were downtown at the time. There was a greater supply of houses then in Mace Ranch as compared to downtown. THIS IS BASIC ECONOMICS–SUPPLY AND DEMAND. You misrepresent the full picture with your statement quoted above.

    Now your personal feelings and public policy on homes and growth are different issues altogether. So is the issue of the demand to warrant such building. Maybe there isn’t the demand now; maybe there is. But more houses will mitigate prices through greater supply. There’s no doubt about it.

  161. Anonymous

    Is there any City Council strategy on how to fund Police and Fire obligations (operations and retirements) over the next 10-15 years? Does anyone have a plan?

  162. Anonymous

    Is there any City Council strategy on how to fund Police and Fire obligations (operations and retirements) over the next 10-15 years? Does anyone have a plan?

  163. Anonymous

    Is there any City Council strategy on how to fund Police and Fire obligations (operations and retirements) over the next 10-15 years? Does anyone have a plan?

  164. Anonymous

    Is there any City Council strategy on how to fund Police and Fire obligations (operations and retirements) over the next 10-15 years? Does anyone have a plan?

  165. Ron

    Who to vote for? Its not an easy choice and this profoundly bothers me. I will be voting but my choices will be made in the booth. Funny that an anonymous poster would critically ask me how I will vote.

    Sue you say you would like me to own a home in Davis. Can you loan me $500,000. If you do I will support your policies on growth like any other nimby who wants to close the gate behind them after they are in.

  166. Ron

    Who to vote for? Its not an easy choice and this profoundly bothers me. I will be voting but my choices will be made in the booth. Funny that an anonymous poster would critically ask me how I will vote.

    Sue you say you would like me to own a home in Davis. Can you loan me $500,000. If you do I will support your policies on growth like any other nimby who wants to close the gate behind them after they are in.

  167. Ron

    Who to vote for? Its not an easy choice and this profoundly bothers me. I will be voting but my choices will be made in the booth. Funny that an anonymous poster would critically ask me how I will vote.

    Sue you say you would like me to own a home in Davis. Can you loan me $500,000. If you do I will support your policies on growth like any other nimby who wants to close the gate behind them after they are in.

  168. Ron

    Who to vote for? Its not an easy choice and this profoundly bothers me. I will be voting but my choices will be made in the booth. Funny that an anonymous poster would critically ask me how I will vote.

    Sue you say you would like me to own a home in Davis. Can you loan me $500,000. If you do I will support your policies on growth like any other nimby who wants to close the gate behind them after they are in.

  169. Anonymous

    A vote for Rob Roy is a vote for
    Davis’s cranky, loud-talking and/ but whole-hearted working class dudes who used to shoot the righteous bull in Mr. B’s (aka A.J. Bumpps).
    Still loud and crazy in various non-greedhead crannies!
    Rob Roy, with whom our present esteemed gnarly City Council candidate is eponymous, was a famous Scottish folk hero and outlaw of the early 18th century: Rob Roy is sometimes known as the Scottish Robin Hood.
    Davis, California mayhap needs
    a bit of a witty Scottish Robin Hood to take from the developers’ boring propaganda and give to affordability-authenticity folk, eh? Why Rob Roy’s running, for the folk!
    Rock on, scruffy East Davis Stanley Davis home dwellers!

  170. Anonymous

    A vote for Rob Roy is a vote for
    Davis’s cranky, loud-talking and/ but whole-hearted working class dudes who used to shoot the righteous bull in Mr. B’s (aka A.J. Bumpps).
    Still loud and crazy in various non-greedhead crannies!
    Rob Roy, with whom our present esteemed gnarly City Council candidate is eponymous, was a famous Scottish folk hero and outlaw of the early 18th century: Rob Roy is sometimes known as the Scottish Robin Hood.
    Davis, California mayhap needs
    a bit of a witty Scottish Robin Hood to take from the developers’ boring propaganda and give to affordability-authenticity folk, eh? Why Rob Roy’s running, for the folk!
    Rock on, scruffy East Davis Stanley Davis home dwellers!

  171. Anonymous

    A vote for Rob Roy is a vote for
    Davis’s cranky, loud-talking and/ but whole-hearted working class dudes who used to shoot the righteous bull in Mr. B’s (aka A.J. Bumpps).
    Still loud and crazy in various non-greedhead crannies!
    Rob Roy, with whom our present esteemed gnarly City Council candidate is eponymous, was a famous Scottish folk hero and outlaw of the early 18th century: Rob Roy is sometimes known as the Scottish Robin Hood.
    Davis, California mayhap needs
    a bit of a witty Scottish Robin Hood to take from the developers’ boring propaganda and give to affordability-authenticity folk, eh? Why Rob Roy’s running, for the folk!
    Rock on, scruffy East Davis Stanley Davis home dwellers!

  172. Anonymous

    A vote for Rob Roy is a vote for
    Davis’s cranky, loud-talking and/ but whole-hearted working class dudes who used to shoot the righteous bull in Mr. B’s (aka A.J. Bumpps).
    Still loud and crazy in various non-greedhead crannies!
    Rob Roy, with whom our present esteemed gnarly City Council candidate is eponymous, was a famous Scottish folk hero and outlaw of the early 18th century: Rob Roy is sometimes known as the Scottish Robin Hood.
    Davis, California mayhap needs
    a bit of a witty Scottish Robin Hood to take from the developers’ boring propaganda and give to affordability-authenticity folk, eh? Why Rob Roy’s running, for the folk!
    Rock on, scruffy East Davis Stanley Davis home dwellers!

  173. don shor

    “Houses were much less expensive in Mace Ranch under construction than they were downtown at the time. There was a greater supply of houses then in Mace Ranch as compared to downtown. THIS IS BASIC ECONOMICS–SUPPLY AND DEMAND.”

    Of course it is true that if a lot more houses were built in Davis, the price differential of 15 – 25% compared to surrounding communities would drop. (The difference is even higher right now, because home prices are drastically slumping in Dixon and Woodland in the current downturn, while Davis prices have dropped less.)

    But the question is how many houses would it take? Since Davis, Dixon, West Sac, and Woodland have all grown at different rates over the last decade, and that price differential has consistently been there, it would probably take thousands of new homes to make Davis median price drop to the levels of those communities. Building thousands of new homes would create a whole new set of problems. For those who criticize the current growth policy, please be specific: do you advocate the construction of thousands of new homes on the periphery of Davis? There is no room in the city limits for those kinds of housing numbers. So if that is what you advocate, please tell us how many houses and where you think they should go. Otherwise, your accusations of NIMBYism are pretty shallow.

    It is worth noting that Dixon, which has grown at a very rapid rate for the last decade, has far a far worse school fiscal crisis than Davis does.

  174. don shor

    “Houses were much less expensive in Mace Ranch under construction than they were downtown at the time. There was a greater supply of houses then in Mace Ranch as compared to downtown. THIS IS BASIC ECONOMICS–SUPPLY AND DEMAND.”

    Of course it is true that if a lot more houses were built in Davis, the price differential of 15 – 25% compared to surrounding communities would drop. (The difference is even higher right now, because home prices are drastically slumping in Dixon and Woodland in the current downturn, while Davis prices have dropped less.)

    But the question is how many houses would it take? Since Davis, Dixon, West Sac, and Woodland have all grown at different rates over the last decade, and that price differential has consistently been there, it would probably take thousands of new homes to make Davis median price drop to the levels of those communities. Building thousands of new homes would create a whole new set of problems. For those who criticize the current growth policy, please be specific: do you advocate the construction of thousands of new homes on the periphery of Davis? There is no room in the city limits for those kinds of housing numbers. So if that is what you advocate, please tell us how many houses and where you think they should go. Otherwise, your accusations of NIMBYism are pretty shallow.

    It is worth noting that Dixon, which has grown at a very rapid rate for the last decade, has far a far worse school fiscal crisis than Davis does.

  175. don shor

    “Houses were much less expensive in Mace Ranch under construction than they were downtown at the time. There was a greater supply of houses then in Mace Ranch as compared to downtown. THIS IS BASIC ECONOMICS–SUPPLY AND DEMAND.”

    Of course it is true that if a lot more houses were built in Davis, the price differential of 15 – 25% compared to surrounding communities would drop. (The difference is even higher right now, because home prices are drastically slumping in Dixon and Woodland in the current downturn, while Davis prices have dropped less.)

    But the question is how many houses would it take? Since Davis, Dixon, West Sac, and Woodland have all grown at different rates over the last decade, and that price differential has consistently been there, it would probably take thousands of new homes to make Davis median price drop to the levels of those communities. Building thousands of new homes would create a whole new set of problems. For those who criticize the current growth policy, please be specific: do you advocate the construction of thousands of new homes on the periphery of Davis? There is no room in the city limits for those kinds of housing numbers. So if that is what you advocate, please tell us how many houses and where you think they should go. Otherwise, your accusations of NIMBYism are pretty shallow.

    It is worth noting that Dixon, which has grown at a very rapid rate for the last decade, has far a far worse school fiscal crisis than Davis does.

  176. don shor

    “Houses were much less expensive in Mace Ranch under construction than they were downtown at the time. There was a greater supply of houses then in Mace Ranch as compared to downtown. THIS IS BASIC ECONOMICS–SUPPLY AND DEMAND.”

    Of course it is true that if a lot more houses were built in Davis, the price differential of 15 – 25% compared to surrounding communities would drop. (The difference is even higher right now, because home prices are drastically slumping in Dixon and Woodland in the current downturn, while Davis prices have dropped less.)

    But the question is how many houses would it take? Since Davis, Dixon, West Sac, and Woodland have all grown at different rates over the last decade, and that price differential has consistently been there, it would probably take thousands of new homes to make Davis median price drop to the levels of those communities. Building thousands of new homes would create a whole new set of problems. For those who criticize the current growth policy, please be specific: do you advocate the construction of thousands of new homes on the periphery of Davis? There is no room in the city limits for those kinds of housing numbers. So if that is what you advocate, please tell us how many houses and where you think they should go. Otherwise, your accusations of NIMBYism are pretty shallow.

    It is worth noting that Dixon, which has grown at a very rapid rate for the last decade, has far a far worse school fiscal crisis than Davis does.

  177. J Salinger

    Sure Don, thousands of new homes. No problem.

    Dixon’s problems with school finances are not related to declining enrollment they are related to clerical errors so its an apples and oranges comparison.

  178. J Salinger

    Sure Don, thousands of new homes. No problem.

    Dixon’s problems with school finances are not related to declining enrollment they are related to clerical errors so its an apples and oranges comparison.

  179. J Salinger

    Sure Don, thousands of new homes. No problem.

    Dixon’s problems with school finances are not related to declining enrollment they are related to clerical errors so its an apples and oranges comparison.

  180. J Salinger

    Sure Don, thousands of new homes. No problem.

    Dixon’s problems with school finances are not related to declining enrollment they are related to clerical errors so its an apples and oranges comparison.

  181. Dave Hart

    Since this blog response has totally gotten off course, I may as well help it drift even further.

    Housing prices in Davis reflect what people believe is a more desirable place to live in thereby justifying the higher price. Davis is a college town with an (up until now) interesting downtown and lack of “mallism”. It also is known for its school system outcomes like high percentage of students going on to four year college programs and high test scores. That’s why the price of houses is insensitive to increased housing stock. It’s a more desirable place to live than the alternatives that people complain about having to live in.

    The core of it all is the University. That’s what makes Davis different. Lots of faculty and others associated with UCD and state government means those people’s kids are expected to perform better in school because Mom and Dad expect and demand it. That, in turn, has an upward spiral on the entire community. The place becomes a breeding ground for people who want to live in a community that values certain things over others. It becomes at once the blessing and the curse.

    No amount of building housing will decrease the price as long as Davis is a desirable place to live. But, if we keep on approving all kinds of big retail and walled off neighborhoods and let the downtown go to hell, overbuild school facilities to placate the new petulant homeowners on the perhiphery of town thus putting our school district finances in a tailspin so that we have to allow lots of development to get ourselves out of the mess we got into in the first place then we’ll end up just like every other metropolitan sprawlopolis and housing will get more “affordable”.

    Yes, that was intentionally all one sentence.

  182. Dave Hart

    Since this blog response has totally gotten off course, I may as well help it drift even further.

    Housing prices in Davis reflect what people believe is a more desirable place to live in thereby justifying the higher price. Davis is a college town with an (up until now) interesting downtown and lack of “mallism”. It also is known for its school system outcomes like high percentage of students going on to four year college programs and high test scores. That’s why the price of houses is insensitive to increased housing stock. It’s a more desirable place to live than the alternatives that people complain about having to live in.

    The core of it all is the University. That’s what makes Davis different. Lots of faculty and others associated with UCD and state government means those people’s kids are expected to perform better in school because Mom and Dad expect and demand it. That, in turn, has an upward spiral on the entire community. The place becomes a breeding ground for people who want to live in a community that values certain things over others. It becomes at once the blessing and the curse.

    No amount of building housing will decrease the price as long as Davis is a desirable place to live. But, if we keep on approving all kinds of big retail and walled off neighborhoods and let the downtown go to hell, overbuild school facilities to placate the new petulant homeowners on the perhiphery of town thus putting our school district finances in a tailspin so that we have to allow lots of development to get ourselves out of the mess we got into in the first place then we’ll end up just like every other metropolitan sprawlopolis and housing will get more “affordable”.

    Yes, that was intentionally all one sentence.

  183. Dave Hart

    Since this blog response has totally gotten off course, I may as well help it drift even further.

    Housing prices in Davis reflect what people believe is a more desirable place to live in thereby justifying the higher price. Davis is a college town with an (up until now) interesting downtown and lack of “mallism”. It also is known for its school system outcomes like high percentage of students going on to four year college programs and high test scores. That’s why the price of houses is insensitive to increased housing stock. It’s a more desirable place to live than the alternatives that people complain about having to live in.

    The core of it all is the University. That’s what makes Davis different. Lots of faculty and others associated with UCD and state government means those people’s kids are expected to perform better in school because Mom and Dad expect and demand it. That, in turn, has an upward spiral on the entire community. The place becomes a breeding ground for people who want to live in a community that values certain things over others. It becomes at once the blessing and the curse.

    No amount of building housing will decrease the price as long as Davis is a desirable place to live. But, if we keep on approving all kinds of big retail and walled off neighborhoods and let the downtown go to hell, overbuild school facilities to placate the new petulant homeowners on the perhiphery of town thus putting our school district finances in a tailspin so that we have to allow lots of development to get ourselves out of the mess we got into in the first place then we’ll end up just like every other metropolitan sprawlopolis and housing will get more “affordable”.

    Yes, that was intentionally all one sentence.

  184. Dave Hart

    Since this blog response has totally gotten off course, I may as well help it drift even further.

    Housing prices in Davis reflect what people believe is a more desirable place to live in thereby justifying the higher price. Davis is a college town with an (up until now) interesting downtown and lack of “mallism”. It also is known for its school system outcomes like high percentage of students going on to four year college programs and high test scores. That’s why the price of houses is insensitive to increased housing stock. It’s a more desirable place to live than the alternatives that people complain about having to live in.

    The core of it all is the University. That’s what makes Davis different. Lots of faculty and others associated with UCD and state government means those people’s kids are expected to perform better in school because Mom and Dad expect and demand it. That, in turn, has an upward spiral on the entire community. The place becomes a breeding ground for people who want to live in a community that values certain things over others. It becomes at once the blessing and the curse.

    No amount of building housing will decrease the price as long as Davis is a desirable place to live. But, if we keep on approving all kinds of big retail and walled off neighborhoods and let the downtown go to hell, overbuild school facilities to placate the new petulant homeowners on the perhiphery of town thus putting our school district finances in a tailspin so that we have to allow lots of development to get ourselves out of the mess we got into in the first place then we’ll end up just like every other metropolitan sprawlopolis and housing will get more “affordable”.

    Yes, that was intentionally all one sentence.

  185. J Salinger

    Dave, Prices in Davis have had a premium as long as I can remember for all the reasons you state but as Don points out that premium is higher now because Davis has underbuilt while the rest of the area has overbuilt. The consequences are not as you see them however. As an example, Woodland is recruiting pink slipped teachers from Davis as we speak.

    Over building schools isn’t what is causing layoffs. Layoffs are the result of declining enrollment as a result of high prices due to restricted supply and, of course, the weak economy . The petulance of new homeowners is due to the prop13 tax structure where they had to pay Mello-Roos development fees to build schools. Why shouldn’t they demand schools after they have paid for them?

  186. J Salinger

    Dave, Prices in Davis have had a premium as long as I can remember for all the reasons you state but as Don points out that premium is higher now because Davis has underbuilt while the rest of the area has overbuilt. The consequences are not as you see them however. As an example, Woodland is recruiting pink slipped teachers from Davis as we speak.

    Over building schools isn’t what is causing layoffs. Layoffs are the result of declining enrollment as a result of high prices due to restricted supply and, of course, the weak economy . The petulance of new homeowners is due to the prop13 tax structure where they had to pay Mello-Roos development fees to build schools. Why shouldn’t they demand schools after they have paid for them?

  187. J Salinger

    Dave, Prices in Davis have had a premium as long as I can remember for all the reasons you state but as Don points out that premium is higher now because Davis has underbuilt while the rest of the area has overbuilt. The consequences are not as you see them however. As an example, Woodland is recruiting pink slipped teachers from Davis as we speak.

    Over building schools isn’t what is causing layoffs. Layoffs are the result of declining enrollment as a result of high prices due to restricted supply and, of course, the weak economy . The petulance of new homeowners is due to the prop13 tax structure where they had to pay Mello-Roos development fees to build schools. Why shouldn’t they demand schools after they have paid for them?

  188. J Salinger

    Dave, Prices in Davis have had a premium as long as I can remember for all the reasons you state but as Don points out that premium is higher now because Davis has underbuilt while the rest of the area has overbuilt. The consequences are not as you see them however. As an example, Woodland is recruiting pink slipped teachers from Davis as we speak.

    Over building schools isn’t what is causing layoffs. Layoffs are the result of declining enrollment as a result of high prices due to restricted supply and, of course, the weak economy . The petulance of new homeowners is due to the prop13 tax structure where they had to pay Mello-Roos development fees to build schools. Why shouldn’t they demand schools after they have paid for them?

  189. don shor

    Vacaville Unified School District budget cuts for 2008-9: $5 million.
    Fairfield-Suisun Unified School District budget cuts for 2008-9: $4.7 million.
    Not enough houses? Declining enrollment?

  190. don shor

    Vacaville Unified School District budget cuts for 2008-9: $5 million.
    Fairfield-Suisun Unified School District budget cuts for 2008-9: $4.7 million.
    Not enough houses? Declining enrollment?

  191. don shor

    Vacaville Unified School District budget cuts for 2008-9: $5 million.
    Fairfield-Suisun Unified School District budget cuts for 2008-9: $4.7 million.
    Not enough houses? Declining enrollment?

  192. don shor

    Vacaville Unified School District budget cuts for 2008-9: $5 million.
    Fairfield-Suisun Unified School District budget cuts for 2008-9: $4.7 million.
    Not enough houses? Declining enrollment?

  193. don shor

    “Woodland is recruiting pink slipped teachers from Davis as we speak.”
    —-
    “Facing $1.7 million in cuts to the district budget, Woodland’s district leadership has concluded that a recently-approved raise for some staff will no longer be possible. The district recently implemented a hiring freeze in an effort to avoid layoffs this year, but it is uncertain what next year’s budget might bring.” — Woodland Daily Democrat, 2/9/08

  194. don shor

    “Woodland is recruiting pink slipped teachers from Davis as we speak.”
    —-
    “Facing $1.7 million in cuts to the district budget, Woodland’s district leadership has concluded that a recently-approved raise for some staff will no longer be possible. The district recently implemented a hiring freeze in an effort to avoid layoffs this year, but it is uncertain what next year’s budget might bring.” — Woodland Daily Democrat, 2/9/08

  195. don shor

    “Woodland is recruiting pink slipped teachers from Davis as we speak.”
    —-
    “Facing $1.7 million in cuts to the district budget, Woodland’s district leadership has concluded that a recently-approved raise for some staff will no longer be possible. The district recently implemented a hiring freeze in an effort to avoid layoffs this year, but it is uncertain what next year’s budget might bring.” — Woodland Daily Democrat, 2/9/08

  196. don shor

    “Woodland is recruiting pink slipped teachers from Davis as we speak.”
    —-
    “Facing $1.7 million in cuts to the district budget, Woodland’s district leadership has concluded that a recently-approved raise for some staff will no longer be possible. The district recently implemented a hiring freeze in an effort to avoid layoffs this year, but it is uncertain what next year’s budget might bring.” — Woodland Daily Democrat, 2/9/08

  197. Tom Pynchon

    2-9 Old Data Don, Since then Woodland settled with their teachers for 2.5% cola. No layoffs due to finances either. Woodland did make about 1.7 million in cuts due to the gov’s January budget projections. The numbers you talked about are all due to January budget projections. Of course Fairfield and Vacaville are much bigger than Davis and so they have a larger number to cut. But these are smaller deficits on a per capita basis. Why does Davis need to cut almost as much as Fairfield with half as many students Don? You guessed it declining enrollment.

  198. Tom Pynchon

    2-9 Old Data Don, Since then Woodland settled with their teachers for 2.5% cola. No layoffs due to finances either. Woodland did make about 1.7 million in cuts due to the gov’s January budget projections. The numbers you talked about are all due to January budget projections. Of course Fairfield and Vacaville are much bigger than Davis and so they have a larger number to cut. But these are smaller deficits on a per capita basis. Why does Davis need to cut almost as much as Fairfield with half as many students Don? You guessed it declining enrollment.

  199. Tom Pynchon

    2-9 Old Data Don, Since then Woodland settled with their teachers for 2.5% cola. No layoffs due to finances either. Woodland did make about 1.7 million in cuts due to the gov’s January budget projections. The numbers you talked about are all due to January budget projections. Of course Fairfield and Vacaville are much bigger than Davis and so they have a larger number to cut. But these are smaller deficits on a per capita basis. Why does Davis need to cut almost as much as Fairfield with half as many students Don? You guessed it declining enrollment.

  200. Tom Pynchon

    2-9 Old Data Don, Since then Woodland settled with their teachers for 2.5% cola. No layoffs due to finances either. Woodland did make about 1.7 million in cuts due to the gov’s January budget projections. The numbers you talked about are all due to January budget projections. Of course Fairfield and Vacaville are much bigger than Davis and so they have a larger number to cut. But these are smaller deficits on a per capita basis. Why does Davis need to cut almost as much as Fairfield with half as many students Don? You guessed it declining enrollment.

  201. AB Toklas

    Yeah but they drew down their reserves and cut to the bone to paper over the losses from the previous years so its the chickens coming home to roost in the perfect storm of a bad economy.

  202. AB Toklas

    Yeah but they drew down their reserves and cut to the bone to paper over the losses from the previous years so its the chickens coming home to roost in the perfect storm of a bad economy.

  203. AB Toklas

    Yeah but they drew down their reserves and cut to the bone to paper over the losses from the previous years so its the chickens coming home to roost in the perfect storm of a bad economy.

  204. AB Toklas

    Yeah but they drew down their reserves and cut to the bone to paper over the losses from the previous years so its the chickens coming home to roost in the perfect storm of a bad economy.

  205. don shor

    Davis lost 163 students last year.
    Fairfield lost 300, after losing 303 the year before.
    Vacaville lost 82, after losing 436 the year before. I don’t think
    Vacaville or Fairfield are slow-growth communities.
    Dixon schools have grown by 1% enrollment for each of the last five years.

    The major shortfall BY FAR is the reduction in state funding proposed by the governor. Enrollment changes are relatively trivial. I suspect Superintendent Hammond would be much happier to be cutting $800,000+ from the budget than $4 million.

    The myth that declining enrollments and housing growth policies are the cause of Davis school funding problems is remarkably persistent, but it is just not true.

  206. don shor

    Davis lost 163 students last year.
    Fairfield lost 300, after losing 303 the year before.
    Vacaville lost 82, after losing 436 the year before. I don’t think
    Vacaville or Fairfield are slow-growth communities.
    Dixon schools have grown by 1% enrollment for each of the last five years.

    The major shortfall BY FAR is the reduction in state funding proposed by the governor. Enrollment changes are relatively trivial. I suspect Superintendent Hammond would be much happier to be cutting $800,000+ from the budget than $4 million.

    The myth that declining enrollments and housing growth policies are the cause of Davis school funding problems is remarkably persistent, but it is just not true.

  207. don shor

    Davis lost 163 students last year.
    Fairfield lost 300, after losing 303 the year before.
    Vacaville lost 82, after losing 436 the year before. I don’t think
    Vacaville or Fairfield are slow-growth communities.
    Dixon schools have grown by 1% enrollment for each of the last five years.

    The major shortfall BY FAR is the reduction in state funding proposed by the governor. Enrollment changes are relatively trivial. I suspect Superintendent Hammond would be much happier to be cutting $800,000+ from the budget than $4 million.

    The myth that declining enrollments and housing growth policies are the cause of Davis school funding problems is remarkably persistent, but it is just not true.

  208. don shor

    Davis lost 163 students last year.
    Fairfield lost 300, after losing 303 the year before.
    Vacaville lost 82, after losing 436 the year before. I don’t think
    Vacaville or Fairfield are slow-growth communities.
    Dixon schools have grown by 1% enrollment for each of the last five years.

    The major shortfall BY FAR is the reduction in state funding proposed by the governor. Enrollment changes are relatively trivial. I suspect Superintendent Hammond would be much happier to be cutting $800,000+ from the budget than $4 million.

    The myth that declining enrollments and housing growth policies are the cause of Davis school funding problems is remarkably persistent, but it is just not true.

  209. Anonymous

    A vote for Rob Roy is a vote for politics-as-unusual:
    unlike boring ol’ “Don Shor,” “J. Salinger,” “AB Toklas,” “Thomas Pynchon,” and all the rest of the none de plume establishment mouthpieces.
    You can crunch your numbers all day long. But that is nothing but all-to-profitable sci-fi. When it comes to the reality of what you all are really advocating: playing the bourgeois-speculator-developer game, which is actually an endgame, such as best sung-described by Joni Mitchell:
    “You take paradise and put up a parking lot.”
    A vote against Sydney Vergis, Souza, Saylor is a vote for sanity.
    And against narcissistic selfishness, which is so sad to imagine. Minds going down the drain, chasing money.

  210. Anonymous

    A vote for Rob Roy is a vote for politics-as-unusual:
    unlike boring ol’ “Don Shor,” “J. Salinger,” “AB Toklas,” “Thomas Pynchon,” and all the rest of the none de plume establishment mouthpieces.
    You can crunch your numbers all day long. But that is nothing but all-to-profitable sci-fi. When it comes to the reality of what you all are really advocating: playing the bourgeois-speculator-developer game, which is actually an endgame, such as best sung-described by Joni Mitchell:
    “You take paradise and put up a parking lot.”
    A vote against Sydney Vergis, Souza, Saylor is a vote for sanity.
    And against narcissistic selfishness, which is so sad to imagine. Minds going down the drain, chasing money.

  211. Anonymous

    A vote for Rob Roy is a vote for politics-as-unusual:
    unlike boring ol’ “Don Shor,” “J. Salinger,” “AB Toklas,” “Thomas Pynchon,” and all the rest of the none de plume establishment mouthpieces.
    You can crunch your numbers all day long. But that is nothing but all-to-profitable sci-fi. When it comes to the reality of what you all are really advocating: playing the bourgeois-speculator-developer game, which is actually an endgame, such as best sung-described by Joni Mitchell:
    “You take paradise and put up a parking lot.”
    A vote against Sydney Vergis, Souza, Saylor is a vote for sanity.
    And against narcissistic selfishness, which is so sad to imagine. Minds going down the drain, chasing money.

  212. Anonymous

    A vote for Rob Roy is a vote for politics-as-unusual:
    unlike boring ol’ “Don Shor,” “J. Salinger,” “AB Toklas,” “Thomas Pynchon,” and all the rest of the none de plume establishment mouthpieces.
    You can crunch your numbers all day long. But that is nothing but all-to-profitable sci-fi. When it comes to the reality of what you all are really advocating: playing the bourgeois-speculator-developer game, which is actually an endgame, such as best sung-described by Joni Mitchell:
    “You take paradise and put up a parking lot.”
    A vote against Sydney Vergis, Souza, Saylor is a vote for sanity.
    And against narcissistic selfishness, which is so sad to imagine. Minds going down the drain, chasing money.

  213. Anonymous

    I know a Davis resident who will be moving to ‘North North Davis’ that Woodland development at the end of Poleline road just before Costco. Woodland, poorly planned sprawl that it is, should be a lesson for Davis in bad decision-making and a model to avoid. The city council must work with the county supervisors to maintain the green belt border on all sides of the city that helps Davis maintain its small town feel. Yes, we need more housing, but it must be well planned and timed so that the growth can be absorbed and accommodated by our public services.

    Declining enrollments are happening EVERYWHERE without a large immigrant population simply because well-educated middle class families have fewer children, not just because housing costs more in one place or another.

    Diamond

  214. Anonymous

    I know a Davis resident who will be moving to ‘North North Davis’ that Woodland development at the end of Poleline road just before Costco. Woodland, poorly planned sprawl that it is, should be a lesson for Davis in bad decision-making and a model to avoid. The city council must work with the county supervisors to maintain the green belt border on all sides of the city that helps Davis maintain its small town feel. Yes, we need more housing, but it must be well planned and timed so that the growth can be absorbed and accommodated by our public services.

    Declining enrollments are happening EVERYWHERE without a large immigrant population simply because well-educated middle class families have fewer children, not just because housing costs more in one place or another.

    Diamond

  215. Anonymous

    I know a Davis resident who will be moving to ‘North North Davis’ that Woodland development at the end of Poleline road just before Costco. Woodland, poorly planned sprawl that it is, should be a lesson for Davis in bad decision-making and a model to avoid. The city council must work with the county supervisors to maintain the green belt border on all sides of the city that helps Davis maintain its small town feel. Yes, we need more housing, but it must be well planned and timed so that the growth can be absorbed and accommodated by our public services.

    Declining enrollments are happening EVERYWHERE without a large immigrant population simply because well-educated middle class families have fewer children, not just because housing costs more in one place or another.

    Diamond

  216. Anonymous

    I know a Davis resident who will be moving to ‘North North Davis’ that Woodland development at the end of Poleline road just before Costco. Woodland, poorly planned sprawl that it is, should be a lesson for Davis in bad decision-making and a model to avoid. The city council must work with the county supervisors to maintain the green belt border on all sides of the city that helps Davis maintain its small town feel. Yes, we need more housing, but it must be well planned and timed so that the growth can be absorbed and accommodated by our public services.

    Declining enrollments are happening EVERYWHERE without a large immigrant population simply because well-educated middle class families have fewer children, not just because housing costs more in one place or another.

    Diamond

  217. Anonymous

    Diamond, you are certainly in the rough. While I don’t like the commercial growth tacked on to Woodland either, their growth has been well planned. The city has maintained a direct connection to existing infrastructure, the majority of the city’s growth was directed off of prime ag lands and on to lands with poorer soil quality. Their residential growth stayed out of the flood plain, and the new areas are knit together with walking and bike paths along transit routes. They have a low annual growth limit and a year or so ago passed a measure to limit the city’s eventual size. They are not perfect but there is no part of Woodland that resembles residential sprawl as much as South Davis does.

    From my perspective you have no idea what you are talking about.

  218. Anonymous

    Diamond, you are certainly in the rough. While I don’t like the commercial growth tacked on to Woodland either, their growth has been well planned. The city has maintained a direct connection to existing infrastructure, the majority of the city’s growth was directed off of prime ag lands and on to lands with poorer soil quality. Their residential growth stayed out of the flood plain, and the new areas are knit together with walking and bike paths along transit routes. They have a low annual growth limit and a year or so ago passed a measure to limit the city’s eventual size. They are not perfect but there is no part of Woodland that resembles residential sprawl as much as South Davis does.

    From my perspective you have no idea what you are talking about.

  219. Anonymous

    Diamond, you are certainly in the rough. While I don’t like the commercial growth tacked on to Woodland either, their growth has been well planned. The city has maintained a direct connection to existing infrastructure, the majority of the city’s growth was directed off of prime ag lands and on to lands with poorer soil quality. Their residential growth stayed out of the flood plain, and the new areas are knit together with walking and bike paths along transit routes. They have a low annual growth limit and a year or so ago passed a measure to limit the city’s eventual size. They are not perfect but there is no part of Woodland that resembles residential sprawl as much as South Davis does.

    From my perspective you have no idea what you are talking about.

  220. Anonymous

    Diamond, you are certainly in the rough. While I don’t like the commercial growth tacked on to Woodland either, their growth has been well planned. The city has maintained a direct connection to existing infrastructure, the majority of the city’s growth was directed off of prime ag lands and on to lands with poorer soil quality. Their residential growth stayed out of the flood plain, and the new areas are knit together with walking and bike paths along transit routes. They have a low annual growth limit and a year or so ago passed a measure to limit the city’s eventual size. They are not perfect but there is no part of Woodland that resembles residential sprawl as much as South Davis does.

    From my perspective you have no idea what you are talking about.

  221. William Carey Williams

    “Declining enrollments are happening everywhere without a large immigrant population …”

    And where are there no immigrants? In the minds of people like you who want to wall off Davis and keep out all those immigrants that have swelled California to 39 million people instead of providing the infrastructure for the education of all those hard working multitudes so that they can become well educated and have fewer children like the Malthusian Ehrlichs ZPG nimby’s that think they are better than others. Remember there but for fortune go you or I.

    Diamond I was sitting in Bernardo’s the other day and there was this family with two generations of people with advanced degrees at the next table and they were talking about stuff I knew a great deal about and they had it all wrong and I thought to myself how smug and ignorant they are. Was that you at that table last Saturday morning?

  222. William Carey Williams

    “Declining enrollments are happening everywhere without a large immigrant population …”

    And where are there no immigrants? In the minds of people like you who want to wall off Davis and keep out all those immigrants that have swelled California to 39 million people instead of providing the infrastructure for the education of all those hard working multitudes so that they can become well educated and have fewer children like the Malthusian Ehrlichs ZPG nimby’s that think they are better than others. Remember there but for fortune go you or I.

    Diamond I was sitting in Bernardo’s the other day and there was this family with two generations of people with advanced degrees at the next table and they were talking about stuff I knew a great deal about and they had it all wrong and I thought to myself how smug and ignorant they are. Was that you at that table last Saturday morning?

  223. William Carey Williams

    “Declining enrollments are happening everywhere without a large immigrant population …”

    And where are there no immigrants? In the minds of people like you who want to wall off Davis and keep out all those immigrants that have swelled California to 39 million people instead of providing the infrastructure for the education of all those hard working multitudes so that they can become well educated and have fewer children like the Malthusian Ehrlichs ZPG nimby’s that think they are better than others. Remember there but for fortune go you or I.

    Diamond I was sitting in Bernardo’s the other day and there was this family with two generations of people with advanced degrees at the next table and they were talking about stuff I knew a great deal about and they had it all wrong and I thought to myself how smug and ignorant they are. Was that you at that table last Saturday morning?

  224. William Carey Williams

    “Declining enrollments are happening everywhere without a large immigrant population …”

    And where are there no immigrants? In the minds of people like you who want to wall off Davis and keep out all those immigrants that have swelled California to 39 million people instead of providing the infrastructure for the education of all those hard working multitudes so that they can become well educated and have fewer children like the Malthusian Ehrlichs ZPG nimby’s that think they are better than others. Remember there but for fortune go you or I.

    Diamond I was sitting in Bernardo’s the other day and there was this family with two generations of people with advanced degrees at the next table and they were talking about stuff I knew a great deal about and they had it all wrong and I thought to myself how smug and ignorant they are. Was that you at that table last Saturday morning?

  225. Dave

    I think Don Shor made the point well. I don’t understand why this thread has shifted from the economic consequences of the firefighters to growth in general.

    Dave Hart’s comment should also be taken into account. If I’m not mistaken, he’s the President of CSEA (California State Employees Association). The point he made is right on–and why you see unions who have workers who are lucky to get 2 percent at 55 or 60 opposing the policies that have led to the firefighters getting 3% at 50. We cannot afford that. It is going to break the entire pension system and it is going to break the backs of city budget.

  226. Dave

    I think Don Shor made the point well. I don’t understand why this thread has shifted from the economic consequences of the firefighters to growth in general.

    Dave Hart’s comment should also be taken into account. If I’m not mistaken, he’s the President of CSEA (California State Employees Association). The point he made is right on–and why you see unions who have workers who are lucky to get 2 percent at 55 or 60 opposing the policies that have led to the firefighters getting 3% at 50. We cannot afford that. It is going to break the entire pension system and it is going to break the backs of city budget.

  227. Dave

    I think Don Shor made the point well. I don’t understand why this thread has shifted from the economic consequences of the firefighters to growth in general.

    Dave Hart’s comment should also be taken into account. If I’m not mistaken, he’s the President of CSEA (California State Employees Association). The point he made is right on–and why you see unions who have workers who are lucky to get 2 percent at 55 or 60 opposing the policies that have led to the firefighters getting 3% at 50. We cannot afford that. It is going to break the entire pension system and it is going to break the backs of city budget.

  228. Dave

    I think Don Shor made the point well. I don’t understand why this thread has shifted from the economic consequences of the firefighters to growth in general.

    Dave Hart’s comment should also be taken into account. If I’m not mistaken, he’s the President of CSEA (California State Employees Association). The point he made is right on–and why you see unions who have workers who are lucky to get 2 percent at 55 or 60 opposing the policies that have led to the firefighters getting 3% at 50. We cannot afford that. It is going to break the entire pension system and it is going to break the backs of city budget.

  229. Upton Sinclair

    Doesn’t Don Saylor get one of these 3% at 50 deals?

    There is an argument that these pensions are too expensive but I don’t think that is what this is about because the firefighters already had that in their contract.

    If it was about putting union friendly people on the council the firefighters would have endorsed Cecilia. So I think the firefighters are choosing who to back for other reasons.

    As for how much they make, shouldn’t they make enough to afford to live in Davis, the town they serve and protect. Sue Greenwald’s no growth policies have driven up the cost of housing and she claims to be for living wages so shouldn’t she be for the public servants of Davis making enough to buy a home in Davis? It seems she only wants rich people to be able to afford to live here while the help can live in Woodland. Or could it be that she is worried about the City of Davis needing to raise taxes to support the high priced help at the fire house. Oh my god Sue, you wouldn’t want those low 1990’s prop 13 property taxes of yours to go up to what those newby’s out in mace ranch have got to pay.

  230. Upton Sinclair

    Doesn’t Don Saylor get one of these 3% at 50 deals?

    There is an argument that these pensions are too expensive but I don’t think that is what this is about because the firefighters already had that in their contract.

    If it was about putting union friendly people on the council the firefighters would have endorsed Cecilia. So I think the firefighters are choosing who to back for other reasons.

    As for how much they make, shouldn’t they make enough to afford to live in Davis, the town they serve and protect. Sue Greenwald’s no growth policies have driven up the cost of housing and she claims to be for living wages so shouldn’t she be for the public servants of Davis making enough to buy a home in Davis? It seems she only wants rich people to be able to afford to live here while the help can live in Woodland. Or could it be that she is worried about the City of Davis needing to raise taxes to support the high priced help at the fire house. Oh my god Sue, you wouldn’t want those low 1990’s prop 13 property taxes of yours to go up to what those newby’s out in mace ranch have got to pay.

  231. Upton Sinclair

    Doesn’t Don Saylor get one of these 3% at 50 deals?

    There is an argument that these pensions are too expensive but I don’t think that is what this is about because the firefighters already had that in their contract.

    If it was about putting union friendly people on the council the firefighters would have endorsed Cecilia. So I think the firefighters are choosing who to back for other reasons.

    As for how much they make, shouldn’t they make enough to afford to live in Davis, the town they serve and protect. Sue Greenwald’s no growth policies have driven up the cost of housing and she claims to be for living wages so shouldn’t she be for the public servants of Davis making enough to buy a home in Davis? It seems she only wants rich people to be able to afford to live here while the help can live in Woodland. Or could it be that she is worried about the City of Davis needing to raise taxes to support the high priced help at the fire house. Oh my god Sue, you wouldn’t want those low 1990’s prop 13 property taxes of yours to go up to what those newby’s out in mace ranch have got to pay.

  232. Upton Sinclair

    Doesn’t Don Saylor get one of these 3% at 50 deals?

    There is an argument that these pensions are too expensive but I don’t think that is what this is about because the firefighters already had that in their contract.

    If it was about putting union friendly people on the council the firefighters would have endorsed Cecilia. So I think the firefighters are choosing who to back for other reasons.

    As for how much they make, shouldn’t they make enough to afford to live in Davis, the town they serve and protect. Sue Greenwald’s no growth policies have driven up the cost of housing and she claims to be for living wages so shouldn’t she be for the public servants of Davis making enough to buy a home in Davis? It seems she only wants rich people to be able to afford to live here while the help can live in Woodland. Or could it be that she is worried about the City of Davis needing to raise taxes to support the high priced help at the fire house. Oh my god Sue, you wouldn’t want those low 1990’s prop 13 property taxes of yours to go up to what those newby’s out in mace ranch have got to pay.

  233. Richard

    if the firefighters are supporting Saylor, Souza and Vergis in the expectation of getting affordable housing that would allow them to live in Davis, then they are as deluded as the blue collar workers of Ohio and Pennsylvania who voted for Clinton in the expectation that she would address the deindustrialization that they believe occurred because of trade agreements supported by her husband

    but, I don’t think that’s it, they know better

    anyway, if affordable housing is the issue, there’s no constituency for it in Davis, even Cecelia takes care to make sure that she says that she wants it for the “middle class”, and even that is probably too hard to stomach for a lot of Davis residents

    there’s only one way it can happen: if prevailing regional market conditions are such that developers see higher density, less expensive units are the only profitable opportunity, because they will always choose to build more profitable McMansions, if given there are buyers for them, and local government officials will allow them to build them

    it could happen, I was in midtown in Sacramento on Sunday, and condo/zero lot units under 1300 square feet (less than $500,000) were selling, units in the 1700, 2100 and 2800 square foot range (yes, amazingly, there is a developer trying to sell 2850 square foot units in midtown) were not

    but will Davis elect councilmembers that approve such projects? they are contentious, and require councilmembers, whether branded as establishment or progressive, to vote against powerful local constituencies in existing neighborhoods

    I doubt it. Now, the literati can return to their personality cult explanation as to why there is no affordable housing in Davis

  234. Richard

    if the firefighters are supporting Saylor, Souza and Vergis in the expectation of getting affordable housing that would allow them to live in Davis, then they are as deluded as the blue collar workers of Ohio and Pennsylvania who voted for Clinton in the expectation that she would address the deindustrialization that they believe occurred because of trade agreements supported by her husband

    but, I don’t think that’s it, they know better

    anyway, if affordable housing is the issue, there’s no constituency for it in Davis, even Cecelia takes care to make sure that she says that she wants it for the “middle class”, and even that is probably too hard to stomach for a lot of Davis residents

    there’s only one way it can happen: if prevailing regional market conditions are such that developers see higher density, less expensive units are the only profitable opportunity, because they will always choose to build more profitable McMansions, if given there are buyers for them, and local government officials will allow them to build them

    it could happen, I was in midtown in Sacramento on Sunday, and condo/zero lot units under 1300 square feet (less than $500,000) were selling, units in the 1700, 2100 and 2800 square foot range (yes, amazingly, there is a developer trying to sell 2850 square foot units in midtown) were not

    but will Davis elect councilmembers that approve such projects? they are contentious, and require councilmembers, whether branded as establishment or progressive, to vote against powerful local constituencies in existing neighborhoods

    I doubt it. Now, the literati can return to their personality cult explanation as to why there is no affordable housing in Davis

  235. Richard

    if the firefighters are supporting Saylor, Souza and Vergis in the expectation of getting affordable housing that would allow them to live in Davis, then they are as deluded as the blue collar workers of Ohio and Pennsylvania who voted for Clinton in the expectation that she would address the deindustrialization that they believe occurred because of trade agreements supported by her husband

    but, I don’t think that’s it, they know better

    anyway, if affordable housing is the issue, there’s no constituency for it in Davis, even Cecelia takes care to make sure that she says that she wants it for the “middle class”, and even that is probably too hard to stomach for a lot of Davis residents

    there’s only one way it can happen: if prevailing regional market conditions are such that developers see higher density, less expensive units are the only profitable opportunity, because they will always choose to build more profitable McMansions, if given there are buyers for them, and local government officials will allow them to build them

    it could happen, I was in midtown in Sacramento on Sunday, and condo/zero lot units under 1300 square feet (less than $500,000) were selling, units in the 1700, 2100 and 2800 square foot range (yes, amazingly, there is a developer trying to sell 2850 square foot units in midtown) were not

    but will Davis elect councilmembers that approve such projects? they are contentious, and require councilmembers, whether branded as establishment or progressive, to vote against powerful local constituencies in existing neighborhoods

    I doubt it. Now, the literati can return to their personality cult explanation as to why there is no affordable housing in Davis

  236. Richard

    if the firefighters are supporting Saylor, Souza and Vergis in the expectation of getting affordable housing that would allow them to live in Davis, then they are as deluded as the blue collar workers of Ohio and Pennsylvania who voted for Clinton in the expectation that she would address the deindustrialization that they believe occurred because of trade agreements supported by her husband

    but, I don’t think that’s it, they know better

    anyway, if affordable housing is the issue, there’s no constituency for it in Davis, even Cecelia takes care to make sure that she says that she wants it for the “middle class”, and even that is probably too hard to stomach for a lot of Davis residents

    there’s only one way it can happen: if prevailing regional market conditions are such that developers see higher density, less expensive units are the only profitable opportunity, because they will always choose to build more profitable McMansions, if given there are buyers for them, and local government officials will allow them to build them

    it could happen, I was in midtown in Sacramento on Sunday, and condo/zero lot units under 1300 square feet (less than $500,000) were selling, units in the 1700, 2100 and 2800 square foot range (yes, amazingly, there is a developer trying to sell 2850 square foot units in midtown) were not

    but will Davis elect councilmembers that approve such projects? they are contentious, and require councilmembers, whether branded as establishment or progressive, to vote against powerful local constituencies in existing neighborhoods

    I doubt it. Now, the literati can return to their personality cult explanation as to why there is no affordable housing in Davis

  237. playing hardball

    “there’s only one way it can happen: if prevailing regional market conditions are such that developers see higher density, less expensive units are the only profitable opportunity….

    We need Council reps who will let the land speculators/developers know that they need to build the housing we desire, expect less profit and “make it worth the city’s while” to grant them permission to make their development profits….. otherwise…. they can expect to be growing tomatoes and hay on their properties indefinitely.

  238. playing hardball

    “there’s only one way it can happen: if prevailing regional market conditions are such that developers see higher density, less expensive units are the only profitable opportunity….

    We need Council reps who will let the land speculators/developers know that they need to build the housing we desire, expect less profit and “make it worth the city’s while” to grant them permission to make their development profits….. otherwise…. they can expect to be growing tomatoes and hay on their properties indefinitely.

  239. playing hardball

    “there’s only one way it can happen: if prevailing regional market conditions are such that developers see higher density, less expensive units are the only profitable opportunity….

    We need Council reps who will let the land speculators/developers know that they need to build the housing we desire, expect less profit and “make it worth the city’s while” to grant them permission to make their development profits….. otherwise…. they can expect to be growing tomatoes and hay on their properties indefinitely.

  240. playing hardball

    “there’s only one way it can happen: if prevailing regional market conditions are such that developers see higher density, less expensive units are the only profitable opportunity….

    We need Council reps who will let the land speculators/developers know that they need to build the housing we desire, expect less profit and “make it worth the city’s while” to grant them permission to make their development profits….. otherwise…. they can expect to be growing tomatoes and hay on their properties indefinitely.

  241. TorsteinVeblem

    Which candidates would that be? Saylor and Souza won’t demand enough from the developers and Greenwald doesn’t have the political skills to do anything but oppose all development. So there are no good choices in my opinion.

  242. TorsteinVeblem

    Which candidates would that be? Saylor and Souza won’t demand enough from the developers and Greenwald doesn’t have the political skills to do anything but oppose all development. So there are no good choices in my opinion.

  243. TorsteinVeblem

    Which candidates would that be? Saylor and Souza won’t demand enough from the developers and Greenwald doesn’t have the political skills to do anything but oppose all development. So there are no good choices in my opinion.

  244. TorsteinVeblem

    Which candidates would that be? Saylor and Souza won’t demand enough from the developers and Greenwald doesn’t have the political skills to do anything but oppose all development. So there are no good choices in my opinion.

  245. Rich Rifkin

    “Just to be perfectly clear – the police officers get the same deal. Mr. Rifkin seems to focus on firefighters, but the issue really extends to all city employees.”

    Not true. The retirement benefits are better for the firefighters. Cops retire older, among other things. Also, in their last contract, the police got a 17% raise over four years, while the firefighters got more than double that at 36%.

  246. Rich Rifkin

    “Just to be perfectly clear – the police officers get the same deal. Mr. Rifkin seems to focus on firefighters, but the issue really extends to all city employees.”

    Not true. The retirement benefits are better for the firefighters. Cops retire older, among other things. Also, in their last contract, the police got a 17% raise over four years, while the firefighters got more than double that at 36%.

  247. Rich Rifkin

    “Just to be perfectly clear – the police officers get the same deal. Mr. Rifkin seems to focus on firefighters, but the issue really extends to all city employees.”

    Not true. The retirement benefits are better for the firefighters. Cops retire older, among other things. Also, in their last contract, the police got a 17% raise over four years, while the firefighters got more than double that at 36%.

  248. Rich Rifkin

    “Just to be perfectly clear – the police officers get the same deal. Mr. Rifkin seems to focus on firefighters, but the issue really extends to all city employees.”

    Not true. The retirement benefits are better for the firefighters. Cops retire older, among other things. Also, in their last contract, the police got a 17% raise over four years, while the firefighters got more than double that at 36%.

  249. Rich Rifkin

    DON GIBSON “We need publicly financed campaigns in Davis. I dont know the specifics or if this would limit independent expenditures in Davis. It would help fix all of the issues we have with who is being bought by who. If we had publicly financed campaigns we would not have to worry about where people get their money.”

    I agree completely. The firefighters have every right under our laws to do what they are doing, unethical though it may be. However, the laws need to be changed, so beneficiaries of the city budget are not funding the people who will negotiate their contracts.

  250. Rich Rifkin

    DON GIBSON “We need publicly financed campaigns in Davis. I dont know the specifics or if this would limit independent expenditures in Davis. It would help fix all of the issues we have with who is being bought by who. If we had publicly financed campaigns we would not have to worry about where people get their money.”

    I agree completely. The firefighters have every right under our laws to do what they are doing, unethical though it may be. However, the laws need to be changed, so beneficiaries of the city budget are not funding the people who will negotiate their contracts.

  251. Rich Rifkin

    DON GIBSON “We need publicly financed campaigns in Davis. I dont know the specifics or if this would limit independent expenditures in Davis. It would help fix all of the issues we have with who is being bought by who. If we had publicly financed campaigns we would not have to worry about where people get their money.”

    I agree completely. The firefighters have every right under our laws to do what they are doing, unethical though it may be. However, the laws need to be changed, so beneficiaries of the city budget are not funding the people who will negotiate their contracts.

  252. Rich Rifkin

    DON GIBSON “We need publicly financed campaigns in Davis. I dont know the specifics or if this would limit independent expenditures in Davis. It would help fix all of the issues we have with who is being bought by who. If we had publicly financed campaigns we would not have to worry about where people get their money.”

    I agree completely. The firefighters have every right under our laws to do what they are doing, unethical though it may be. However, the laws need to be changed, so beneficiaries of the city budget are not funding the people who will negotiate their contracts.

  253. Rich Rifkin

    “65% of the Davis Firefighters contributing to the last city council election don’t live in Davis. 50% of them didn’t even live in Yolo County.”

    In this election, 80% of the Davis firefighters who gave to candidates live outside of Davis. Also, keep in mind that not one city employee gave one cent to any candidate, while EVERY FIREFIGHTER gave the maximum to at least one of the three, most giving the maximum to all three of their choices. (Note: I also contributed to Stephen Souza’s campaign, and pointed this out in my column.)

  254. Rich Rifkin

    “65% of the Davis Firefighters contributing to the last city council election don’t live in Davis. 50% of them didn’t even live in Yolo County.”

    In this election, 80% of the Davis firefighters who gave to candidates live outside of Davis. Also, keep in mind that not one city employee gave one cent to any candidate, while EVERY FIREFIGHTER gave the maximum to at least one of the three, most giving the maximum to all three of their choices. (Note: I also contributed to Stephen Souza’s campaign, and pointed this out in my column.)

  255. Rich Rifkin

    “65% of the Davis Firefighters contributing to the last city council election don’t live in Davis. 50% of them didn’t even live in Yolo County.”

    In this election, 80% of the Davis firefighters who gave to candidates live outside of Davis. Also, keep in mind that not one city employee gave one cent to any candidate, while EVERY FIREFIGHTER gave the maximum to at least one of the three, most giving the maximum to all three of their choices. (Note: I also contributed to Stephen Souza’s campaign, and pointed this out in my column.)

  256. Rich Rifkin

    “65% of the Davis Firefighters contributing to the last city council election don’t live in Davis. 50% of them didn’t even live in Yolo County.”

    In this election, 80% of the Davis firefighters who gave to candidates live outside of Davis. Also, keep in mind that not one city employee gave one cent to any candidate, while EVERY FIREFIGHTER gave the maximum to at least one of the three, most giving the maximum to all three of their choices. (Note: I also contributed to Stephen Souza’s campaign, and pointed this out in my column.)

  257. Rich Rifkin

    “I would bet that fewer than 20% of their trips involved anything burning.”

    I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I believe it is lower than 10%. Most of what our department does is answer medical calls. This is very important and necessary. However, our department doesn’t use any discretion as to which medical calls it attends and which it does not. They assist on crucial calls, such as heart attacks and serious accidents; they also respond to calls for twisted ankles and other non-emergencies. That is why, if you are near a fire station, you will regularly see the trucks rolling out all day long: to respond to every single 9-1-1 medical call, even when the AMR ambulance* can handle it. Other cities don’t do this: they use discretion before committing their fire trucks to a medical call.

    *Through the county (and a multi-county deal) we have a contract with AMR to provide ambulance service 24 hours a day.

  258. Rich Rifkin

    “I would bet that fewer than 20% of their trips involved anything burning.”

    I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I believe it is lower than 10%. Most of what our department does is answer medical calls. This is very important and necessary. However, our department doesn’t use any discretion as to which medical calls it attends and which it does not. They assist on crucial calls, such as heart attacks and serious accidents; they also respond to calls for twisted ankles and other non-emergencies. That is why, if you are near a fire station, you will regularly see the trucks rolling out all day long: to respond to every single 9-1-1 medical call, even when the AMR ambulance* can handle it. Other cities don’t do this: they use discretion before committing their fire trucks to a medical call.

    *Through the county (and a multi-county deal) we have a contract with AMR to provide ambulance service 24 hours a day.

  259. Rich Rifkin

    “I would bet that fewer than 20% of their trips involved anything burning.”

    I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I believe it is lower than 10%. Most of what our department does is answer medical calls. This is very important and necessary. However, our department doesn’t use any discretion as to which medical calls it attends and which it does not. They assist on crucial calls, such as heart attacks and serious accidents; they also respond to calls for twisted ankles and other non-emergencies. That is why, if you are near a fire station, you will regularly see the trucks rolling out all day long: to respond to every single 9-1-1 medical call, even when the AMR ambulance* can handle it. Other cities don’t do this: they use discretion before committing their fire trucks to a medical call.

    *Through the county (and a multi-county deal) we have a contract with AMR to provide ambulance service 24 hours a day.

  260. Rich Rifkin

    “I would bet that fewer than 20% of their trips involved anything burning.”

    I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but I believe it is lower than 10%. Most of what our department does is answer medical calls. This is very important and necessary. However, our department doesn’t use any discretion as to which medical calls it attends and which it does not. They assist on crucial calls, such as heart attacks and serious accidents; they also respond to calls for twisted ankles and other non-emergencies. That is why, if you are near a fire station, you will regularly see the trucks rolling out all day long: to respond to every single 9-1-1 medical call, even when the AMR ambulance* can handle it. Other cities don’t do this: they use discretion before committing their fire trucks to a medical call.

    *Through the county (and a multi-county deal) we have a contract with AMR to provide ambulance service 24 hours a day.

  261. Rich Rifkin

    DAVE HART: “Now I assume that our firefighters are participating in financing their retirement by putting a percentage of their salary toward the fund.”

    No, Dave, they do not. With all contributions to CalPERS, there are two parts: the worker’s contribution and the government agency’s contribution. In most cases, just like with Social Security, it is 50-50. However, one of the benefits our city council gave the firefighters was that the city picks up 100% of the tab for the retirement pension.

  262. Rich Rifkin

    DAVE HART: “Now I assume that our firefighters are participating in financing their retirement by putting a percentage of their salary toward the fund.”

    No, Dave, they do not. With all contributions to CalPERS, there are two parts: the worker’s contribution and the government agency’s contribution. In most cases, just like with Social Security, it is 50-50. However, one of the benefits our city council gave the firefighters was that the city picks up 100% of the tab for the retirement pension.

  263. Rich Rifkin

    DAVE HART: “Now I assume that our firefighters are participating in financing their retirement by putting a percentage of their salary toward the fund.”

    No, Dave, they do not. With all contributions to CalPERS, there are two parts: the worker’s contribution and the government agency’s contribution. In most cases, just like with Social Security, it is 50-50. However, one of the benefits our city council gave the firefighters was that the city picks up 100% of the tab for the retirement pension.

  264. Rich Rifkin

    DAVE HART: “Now I assume that our firefighters are participating in financing their retirement by putting a percentage of their salary toward the fund.”

    No, Dave, they do not. With all contributions to CalPERS, there are two parts: the worker’s contribution and the government agency’s contribution. In most cases, just like with Social Security, it is 50-50. However, one of the benefits our city council gave the firefighters was that the city picks up 100% of the tab for the retirement pension.

  265. Anonymous

    Firefighter has been the sweetest job in America for 30 years – ever since the UAW jobs went into the toilet. My old neighbor worked long hours for four days a week, sometimes really hard, but other times just did body-building all day. Where else can you retire at 50 with a big honkin’ pension?

    If we converted to 401K and typical benefits with half the salary, you’d still have more qualified applicants than you need. I prefer the money spent on the police or EMT, where the benefit of attracting the best people is most apparent.

    matt

  266. Anonymous

    Firefighter has been the sweetest job in America for 30 years – ever since the UAW jobs went into the toilet. My old neighbor worked long hours for four days a week, sometimes really hard, but other times just did body-building all day. Where else can you retire at 50 with a big honkin’ pension?

    If we converted to 401K and typical benefits with half the salary, you’d still have more qualified applicants than you need. I prefer the money spent on the police or EMT, where the benefit of attracting the best people is most apparent.

    matt

  267. Anonymous

    Firefighter has been the sweetest job in America for 30 years – ever since the UAW jobs went into the toilet. My old neighbor worked long hours for four days a week, sometimes really hard, but other times just did body-building all day. Where else can you retire at 50 with a big honkin’ pension?

    If we converted to 401K and typical benefits with half the salary, you’d still have more qualified applicants than you need. I prefer the money spent on the police or EMT, where the benefit of attracting the best people is most apparent.

    matt

  268. Anonymous

    Firefighter has been the sweetest job in America for 30 years – ever since the UAW jobs went into the toilet. My old neighbor worked long hours for four days a week, sometimes really hard, but other times just did body-building all day. Where else can you retire at 50 with a big honkin’ pension?

    If we converted to 401K and typical benefits with half the salary, you’d still have more qualified applicants than you need. I prefer the money spent on the police or EMT, where the benefit of attracting the best people is most apparent.

    matt

  269. Anonymous

    That’s whole lotta money for a fire department that don’t run that many calls in a day. That means these firefighters getting paid all this cash for watching alot of TV or washing there cars in the back of the station during downtime. I have personally seen it. Im all for the fire dept. to make a deceit salary however these amounts are outrageous.

  270. Anonymous

    That’s whole lotta money for a fire department that don’t run that many calls in a day. That means these firefighters getting paid all this cash for watching alot of TV or washing there cars in the back of the station during downtime. I have personally seen it. Im all for the fire dept. to make a deceit salary however these amounts are outrageous.

  271. Anonymous

    That’s whole lotta money for a fire department that don’t run that many calls in a day. That means these firefighters getting paid all this cash for watching alot of TV or washing there cars in the back of the station during downtime. I have personally seen it. Im all for the fire dept. to make a deceit salary however these amounts are outrageous.

  272. Anonymous

    That’s whole lotta money for a fire department that don’t run that many calls in a day. That means these firefighters getting paid all this cash for watching alot of TV or washing there cars in the back of the station during downtime. I have personally seen it. Im all for the fire dept. to make a deceit salary however these amounts are outrageous.

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