Commentary: Prop 8 Protesters Take To The Streets

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Here we are almost two weeks after the 2008 elections and we are still thinking about 2008 election results. Part of that is because the results are not finalized yet. We still do not know what happened in three Senate races, a few house races, some legislative races, heck we still have a state that is not completely clear yet. And yet probably the big news next to whether or not Barack Obama is going to name Senator Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State is Proposition 8.

The Vanguard wrote about Proposition 8 last weekend, and yet people were still posting to that thread as late as Thursday. Now I have some additional thoughts on the proposition.

The day after the proposition passed by a relatively narrow margin, the activists hit the streets to protest it. I found that very odd frankly. Even now, I have mixed feelings about protesting the passage of a proposition. Let me explain.

My first reaction was that the majority of the people who voted, voted in favor of the proposition. So what good would a minority protesting it do. It seemed like a futile gesture. I mean whatever you think of majority rule in this case, it certainly supersedes mob rule.

And those of you have been discussing Proposition 8 with me know I do not necessarily agree with majority rule in this case. I see the right to marry as a fundamental right. I do not think that it can be abrogated by the vote of the people any more than free speech can. Some obviously do not see marriage as that sort of right. They see this as simply changing the traditional definition of marriage. But that is a much trickier argument than people perhaps want to admit. At one point in our nation’s history, the definition of marriage was the union of a white man to a white woman. Intermarriage until really the last forty years was outlawed in most states. Moreover, at one point blacks could not even marry other blacks. So it is not as though we have not changed the definition of marriage.

I am going to avoid the debate between a separate status for same-sex partners than the marriage status for two-sex partners other than to say if there is a reason you want the status separate, then it’s probably the same reason same-sex partners want the same status.

Back to the protest test. My second reaction to the growing number of protesters is where were you before November 4? This frankly frustrates me to no end. If every person who is protesting spend the time they are taking to protest and instead prior to the election canvassed their neighborhoods, I wonder if we would not have had a different outcome.

People have and will spent a lot of time analyzing the results and I agree with some of the analyses. But, I think you also have to look at the ad campaign. For the most part the ad campaign the Yes on 8 side ran was not running simply against marriage. The two most effective string of ads were the emotional appeal using the imagine of San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom. And the misleading scare tactic suggesting that not passing Prop 8 means same-sex marriage is taught in school.

When they covered the protests and counter-protests in Roseville prior to the election, that was the argument that the pro-side used. That having legal gay marriage means it gets taught in school and children learn that its okay for a boy to marry another boy. There was a fear by some that if children learn about same-sex marriage, they will want to get married to a same-sex partner. This fear of homosexuality, actual homophobia was a powerful tool used.

I go to these lengths to suggest that had these protesters been canvassers and talked with people, these fears could have been allayed. At the margins the vote was about fear not about philosophic opposition to marriage.

I had the same reactions years ago when people protests Proposition 187 and 215. Do not protest, vote and work to get out the vote.

And yet, here comes the mixed emotions part. I like to see people hit the streets. A moment ago I called it mob rule, but really it is not mob rule. It is expressing the right to free speech–a vital and vibrant part of our democratic tradition. I am a believer that thousands of people hitting the streets is a good thing and can lead to change. But only if it is harnessed into a movement that can actually do something.

I have said many times that I believe the time and demographics are on the side of those who support gay rights. In general our society has moved in that direction. I believe by the time my generation is in their fifties, this will be a non-issue. I think a generation that has grown up with openly gay people in every facet of life necessarily is more supportive of the rights for gay people. Moreover, you can not fear monger them out of their support for gay marriage. No one who has grown up around gay people and understands it is going to believe that teaching about gay marriage in school is going to convince children to become gay. Nor for that matter will they necessarily fear their kids being gay.

Some people have suggested that this is a manifestation of youth that may change over time. I do not think this is a young issue, I think this is a comfort and familiarity issue. In a way, I think younger generations having been raised in a more explicit and sexually overt time have an advantage over their older counterparts, I think younger people are more comfortable with their own sexuality and that shows up in a number of ways from willingness and openness to talk frankly about sex, to other issues such as sexual orientation. Certainly there are downsides to openness and comfort about sexuality when it comes to issues of infidelity and promiscuity, but in terms of tolerance and acceptance, it is an advantage and one that is not likely to change over time.

And yes it is true that first time voters voted against this proposition by a two-to-one margin and so some of the differential between the outcome a few years ago and the outcome this year is an artifact of that difference. Nevertheless, the gap between 22 points and 4 points is not merely explained by increased voter participation. It is too large a gap. Rather, it points to an increased acceptance level that is likely to grow over time.

Still getting back to the original issue of street democracy, the verdict is not in yet on that. If they are simply blowing off steam and that steam dissipates, then taking to the streets is still a futile gesture. They are not going to change the outcome by going to the street. They are probably not going to change a lot of minds. And they are not going to influence a court ruling. However, if they can harness that energy to create a grassroots movement that will be the foot soldiers for a new initiative, then it is not futile to take to the streets.

Is that likely to happen? My experience is that few protests of these sorts last long enough to be effective. Anti-war protests in the Vietnam era were fueled by external events that enable them to sustain themselves. Civil rights protests perhaps are a closer parallel. Still the effectiveness of those protests were largely aided by the brutal response from authorities that will not occur now.

Organizers should get names, numbers, start Facebook groups, and start a movement. The closest example to that type of mobilizing effort might be something like MoveOn.org which started out as a simple internet message and turned into an organization that had some staying power and varying levels of influence.

The but ultimately the success or failure will depend on the ability of leaders to organize and the willingness of protesters to partake in other activities such as canvassing.

Regardless, as I have said throughout this process, I believe this is simply a matter of time.

—David M. Greenwald reporting

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About The Author

David Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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274 thoughts on “Commentary: Prop 8 Protesters Take To The Streets”

  1. Anonymous

    Great opinion. There are a great number of groups already on Facebook including Californians Ready to Repeal Prop. 8 – 212,995 members and Repeal the CA Ban on Marriage Equality – 2010 – 229,170 members

  2. Anonymous

    Great opinion. There are a great number of groups already on Facebook including Californians Ready to Repeal Prop. 8 – 212,995 members and Repeal the CA Ban on Marriage Equality – 2010 – 229,170 members

  3. Anonymous

    Great opinion. There are a great number of groups already on Facebook including Californians Ready to Repeal Prop. 8 – 212,995 members and Repeal the CA Ban on Marriage Equality – 2010 – 229,170 members

  4. Anonymous

    Great opinion. There are a great number of groups already on Facebook including Californians Ready to Repeal Prop. 8 – 212,995 members and Repeal the CA Ban on Marriage Equality – 2010 – 229,170 members

  5. wdf

    David G:

    Good commentary. But I think you assume a good number of protestors were sitting on their butts during the campaign. Maybe some were. I have no personal proof, here, but I personally know a good number of Davis area activists who were heavily active in the No on 8 campaign and who also participated in public protest in some way.

    Peaceful protests are a legitimate expression of free speech. It is worth it for relatively neutral citizens to know that this issue causes personal dismay, anguish, and anger. That this issue will not quietly go away.

    From another angle, the No on 8 activists certainly have a lot of anger and disappointment to work out. Protests are community therapy from that perspective; it helps to know and see that others are as upset as you are. I am certain these activists will soon get back to working for other solutions to this issue.

  6. wdf

    David G:

    Good commentary. But I think you assume a good number of protestors were sitting on their butts during the campaign. Maybe some were. I have no personal proof, here, but I personally know a good number of Davis area activists who were heavily active in the No on 8 campaign and who also participated in public protest in some way.

    Peaceful protests are a legitimate expression of free speech. It is worth it for relatively neutral citizens to know that this issue causes personal dismay, anguish, and anger. That this issue will not quietly go away.

    From another angle, the No on 8 activists certainly have a lot of anger and disappointment to work out. Protests are community therapy from that perspective; it helps to know and see that others are as upset as you are. I am certain these activists will soon get back to working for other solutions to this issue.

  7. wdf

    David G:

    Good commentary. But I think you assume a good number of protestors were sitting on their butts during the campaign. Maybe some were. I have no personal proof, here, but I personally know a good number of Davis area activists who were heavily active in the No on 8 campaign and who also participated in public protest in some way.

    Peaceful protests are a legitimate expression of free speech. It is worth it for relatively neutral citizens to know that this issue causes personal dismay, anguish, and anger. That this issue will not quietly go away.

    From another angle, the No on 8 activists certainly have a lot of anger and disappointment to work out. Protests are community therapy from that perspective; it helps to know and see that others are as upset as you are. I am certain these activists will soon get back to working for other solutions to this issue.

  8. wdf

    David G:

    Good commentary. But I think you assume a good number of protestors were sitting on their butts during the campaign. Maybe some were. I have no personal proof, here, but I personally know a good number of Davis area activists who were heavily active in the No on 8 campaign and who also participated in public protest in some way.

    Peaceful protests are a legitimate expression of free speech. It is worth it for relatively neutral citizens to know that this issue causes personal dismay, anguish, and anger. That this issue will not quietly go away.

    From another angle, the No on 8 activists certainly have a lot of anger and disappointment to work out. Protests are community therapy from that perspective; it helps to know and see that others are as upset as you are. I am certain these activists will soon get back to working for other solutions to this issue.

  9. My View

    “In a way, I think younger generations having been raised in a more explicit and sexually overt time have an advantage over their older counterparts, I think younger people are more comfortable with their own sexuality and that shows up in a number of ways from willingness and openness to talk frankly about sex, to other issues such as sexual orientation. Certainly there are downsides to openness and comfort about sexuality when it comes to issues of infidelity and promiscuity, but in terms of tolerance and acceptance, it is an advantage and one that is not likely to change over time.”

    As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better. Tinkering with the def’n of marriage as is being tried right now is leading to the breakdown of marriage. Before you start getting upset at my position, hear me out.

    As you point out, there are downsides to openness. You bet your sweet bippy there are! Kids now experiment with oral sex (thanks to former President Clinton), homosexual sex, promiscuity, like they never have before. Loosening of sexual mores has unintended consequences. We have a UCD Pep Band so out of control it had to be placed on probation. Removing bras from girl band members is seen as no big deal by many in regard to this Pep Band. I look at the removal of bras as sexual assault. In fact I told my kids, all three of whom graduated from UCD, not to join the Pep Band.

    Europe is jealous of our traditions and successes, and would like nothing better than to destroy us from within – to fracture our society so it becomes as troublesome as theirs. Well I for one don’t want to become like Europe.

    Keep marriage as is, promote the two parent tradition of mother and father as the optimum model to strive for and support. But there is no reason not to give gay couples the opportunity of a civil union that has all the same rights as a traditional marriage affords. The slavery analogy, etc. are just red herrings.

  10. My View

    “In a way, I think younger generations having been raised in a more explicit and sexually overt time have an advantage over their older counterparts, I think younger people are more comfortable with their own sexuality and that shows up in a number of ways from willingness and openness to talk frankly about sex, to other issues such as sexual orientation. Certainly there are downsides to openness and comfort about sexuality when it comes to issues of infidelity and promiscuity, but in terms of tolerance and acceptance, it is an advantage and one that is not likely to change over time.”

    As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better. Tinkering with the def’n of marriage as is being tried right now is leading to the breakdown of marriage. Before you start getting upset at my position, hear me out.

    As you point out, there are downsides to openness. You bet your sweet bippy there are! Kids now experiment with oral sex (thanks to former President Clinton), homosexual sex, promiscuity, like they never have before. Loosening of sexual mores has unintended consequences. We have a UCD Pep Band so out of control it had to be placed on probation. Removing bras from girl band members is seen as no big deal by many in regard to this Pep Band. I look at the removal of bras as sexual assault. In fact I told my kids, all three of whom graduated from UCD, not to join the Pep Band.

    Europe is jealous of our traditions and successes, and would like nothing better than to destroy us from within – to fracture our society so it becomes as troublesome as theirs. Well I for one don’t want to become like Europe.

    Keep marriage as is, promote the two parent tradition of mother and father as the optimum model to strive for and support. But there is no reason not to give gay couples the opportunity of a civil union that has all the same rights as a traditional marriage affords. The slavery analogy, etc. are just red herrings.

  11. My View

    “In a way, I think younger generations having been raised in a more explicit and sexually overt time have an advantage over their older counterparts, I think younger people are more comfortable with their own sexuality and that shows up in a number of ways from willingness and openness to talk frankly about sex, to other issues such as sexual orientation. Certainly there are downsides to openness and comfort about sexuality when it comes to issues of infidelity and promiscuity, but in terms of tolerance and acceptance, it is an advantage and one that is not likely to change over time.”

    As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better. Tinkering with the def’n of marriage as is being tried right now is leading to the breakdown of marriage. Before you start getting upset at my position, hear me out.

    As you point out, there are downsides to openness. You bet your sweet bippy there are! Kids now experiment with oral sex (thanks to former President Clinton), homosexual sex, promiscuity, like they never have before. Loosening of sexual mores has unintended consequences. We have a UCD Pep Band so out of control it had to be placed on probation. Removing bras from girl band members is seen as no big deal by many in regard to this Pep Band. I look at the removal of bras as sexual assault. In fact I told my kids, all three of whom graduated from UCD, not to join the Pep Band.

    Europe is jealous of our traditions and successes, and would like nothing better than to destroy us from within – to fracture our society so it becomes as troublesome as theirs. Well I for one don’t want to become like Europe.

    Keep marriage as is, promote the two parent tradition of mother and father as the optimum model to strive for and support. But there is no reason not to give gay couples the opportunity of a civil union that has all the same rights as a traditional marriage affords. The slavery analogy, etc. are just red herrings.

  12. My View

    “In a way, I think younger generations having been raised in a more explicit and sexually overt time have an advantage over their older counterparts, I think younger people are more comfortable with their own sexuality and that shows up in a number of ways from willingness and openness to talk frankly about sex, to other issues such as sexual orientation. Certainly there are downsides to openness and comfort about sexuality when it comes to issues of infidelity and promiscuity, but in terms of tolerance and acceptance, it is an advantage and one that is not likely to change over time.”

    As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better. Tinkering with the def’n of marriage as is being tried right now is leading to the breakdown of marriage. Before you start getting upset at my position, hear me out.

    As you point out, there are downsides to openness. You bet your sweet bippy there are! Kids now experiment with oral sex (thanks to former President Clinton), homosexual sex, promiscuity, like they never have before. Loosening of sexual mores has unintended consequences. We have a UCD Pep Band so out of control it had to be placed on probation. Removing bras from girl band members is seen as no big deal by many in regard to this Pep Band. I look at the removal of bras as sexual assault. In fact I told my kids, all three of whom graduated from UCD, not to join the Pep Band.

    Europe is jealous of our traditions and successes, and would like nothing better than to destroy us from within – to fracture our society so it becomes as troublesome as theirs. Well I for one don’t want to become like Europe.

    Keep marriage as is, promote the two parent tradition of mother and father as the optimum model to strive for and support. But there is no reason not to give gay couples the opportunity of a civil union that has all the same rights as a traditional marriage affords. The slavery analogy, etc. are just red herrings.

  13. David M. Greenwald

    “As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better. Tinkering with the def’n of marriage as is being tried right now is leading to the breakdown of marriage.”

    What has led to the breakdown of marriage has nothing to do with tinkering with the traditional definition. The rise of divorce in part is due to the lack of economic ties for women to men. Women can now earn a living on her own, they have greater economic opportunities. That coincided with cultural changes that no longer ostracize divorced individuals. None of this has to do with gay marriage.

    I don’t see how getting older or having children is going to change my outlook on that. My parents and many of my parents friends voted along with me. As did many of my more senior friends in this town. That’s a faulty argument.

    The empirical data on cohort analysis doesn’t show a great increase in conservatism as people age. What it shows is that there are demographic changes in the make up of society in terms of liberalism-conservatism of cohorts and as they move through the age range, you see changes in the make up society. So as older more liberal people died off and were replaced by younger more conservative people a generation ago, you an increase in conservatism and the reverse is happening now.

  14. David M. Greenwald

    “As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better. Tinkering with the def’n of marriage as is being tried right now is leading to the breakdown of marriage.”

    What has led to the breakdown of marriage has nothing to do with tinkering with the traditional definition. The rise of divorce in part is due to the lack of economic ties for women to men. Women can now earn a living on her own, they have greater economic opportunities. That coincided with cultural changes that no longer ostracize divorced individuals. None of this has to do with gay marriage.

    I don’t see how getting older or having children is going to change my outlook on that. My parents and many of my parents friends voted along with me. As did many of my more senior friends in this town. That’s a faulty argument.

    The empirical data on cohort analysis doesn’t show a great increase in conservatism as people age. What it shows is that there are demographic changes in the make up of society in terms of liberalism-conservatism of cohorts and as they move through the age range, you see changes in the make up society. So as older more liberal people died off and were replaced by younger more conservative people a generation ago, you an increase in conservatism and the reverse is happening now.

  15. David M. Greenwald

    “As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better. Tinkering with the def’n of marriage as is being tried right now is leading to the breakdown of marriage.”

    What has led to the breakdown of marriage has nothing to do with tinkering with the traditional definition. The rise of divorce in part is due to the lack of economic ties for women to men. Women can now earn a living on her own, they have greater economic opportunities. That coincided with cultural changes that no longer ostracize divorced individuals. None of this has to do with gay marriage.

    I don’t see how getting older or having children is going to change my outlook on that. My parents and many of my parents friends voted along with me. As did many of my more senior friends in this town. That’s a faulty argument.

    The empirical data on cohort analysis doesn’t show a great increase in conservatism as people age. What it shows is that there are demographic changes in the make up of society in terms of liberalism-conservatism of cohorts and as they move through the age range, you see changes in the make up society. So as older more liberal people died off and were replaced by younger more conservative people a generation ago, you an increase in conservatism and the reverse is happening now.

  16. David M. Greenwald

    “As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better. Tinkering with the def’n of marriage as is being tried right now is leading to the breakdown of marriage.”

    What has led to the breakdown of marriage has nothing to do with tinkering with the traditional definition. The rise of divorce in part is due to the lack of economic ties for women to men. Women can now earn a living on her own, they have greater economic opportunities. That coincided with cultural changes that no longer ostracize divorced individuals. None of this has to do with gay marriage.

    I don’t see how getting older or having children is going to change my outlook on that. My parents and many of my parents friends voted along with me. As did many of my more senior friends in this town. That’s a faulty argument.

    The empirical data on cohort analysis doesn’t show a great increase in conservatism as people age. What it shows is that there are demographic changes in the make up of society in terms of liberalism-conservatism of cohorts and as they move through the age range, you see changes in the make up society. So as older more liberal people died off and were replaced by younger more conservative people a generation ago, you an increase in conservatism and the reverse is happening now.

  17. David M. Greenwald

    “”Sour grapes” make for lousy wine. So stop whining already! You lost-get over it! “

    As I’m sure you know, there is no static equilibrium in politics. It is a dynamic system. Issue landscape changes. People are not and should not accept losing. Why would they? Should the civil right protesters and activists have given up after their first setback?

    I assume that you were opposed to the third effort to put the parental consent on the ballot this time.

  18. David M. Greenwald

    “”Sour grapes” make for lousy wine. So stop whining already! You lost-get over it! “

    As I’m sure you know, there is no static equilibrium in politics. It is a dynamic system. Issue landscape changes. People are not and should not accept losing. Why would they? Should the civil right protesters and activists have given up after their first setback?

    I assume that you were opposed to the third effort to put the parental consent on the ballot this time.

  19. David M. Greenwald

    “”Sour grapes” make for lousy wine. So stop whining already! You lost-get over it! “

    As I’m sure you know, there is no static equilibrium in politics. It is a dynamic system. Issue landscape changes. People are not and should not accept losing. Why would they? Should the civil right protesters and activists have given up after their first setback?

    I assume that you were opposed to the third effort to put the parental consent on the ballot this time.

  20. David M. Greenwald

    “”Sour grapes” make for lousy wine. So stop whining already! You lost-get over it! “

    As I’m sure you know, there is no static equilibrium in politics. It is a dynamic system. Issue landscape changes. People are not and should not accept losing. Why would they? Should the civil right protesters and activists have given up after their first setback?

    I assume that you were opposed to the third effort to put the parental consent on the ballot this time.

  21. Agree with my view

    I agree with my view.

    If you go google “Gay Day at Disneyland” you’ll be shocked at the blatant open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children. Also, look up the list of sponsors. One sponsor is called “here!” and is a sexually explicit gay website.

    this is gross. Also look at the “gay pride” parades in San Francisco. These are not “gay tolerance” parades, they are gay pride parades. In other words, you should be proud to be gay.

    Yet where are the Gay groups on that? Where are no on 8 people? Do they do anything to oppose those things? Does the ACLU oppose this balatant attempt at homosexualization of children and society? No. Then they are upset because some parents are upset and start to begin to worry about gay marriage becoming the same sort of thing.

    tell you what. I’ll cut you a deal. You do something about Gay Day at Anaheim, then we’ll talk about my vote on prop. 8.

  22. Agree with my view

    I agree with my view.

    If you go google “Gay Day at Disneyland” you’ll be shocked at the blatant open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children. Also, look up the list of sponsors. One sponsor is called “here!” and is a sexually explicit gay website.

    this is gross. Also look at the “gay pride” parades in San Francisco. These are not “gay tolerance” parades, they are gay pride parades. In other words, you should be proud to be gay.

    Yet where are the Gay groups on that? Where are no on 8 people? Do they do anything to oppose those things? Does the ACLU oppose this balatant attempt at homosexualization of children and society? No. Then they are upset because some parents are upset and start to begin to worry about gay marriage becoming the same sort of thing.

    tell you what. I’ll cut you a deal. You do something about Gay Day at Anaheim, then we’ll talk about my vote on prop. 8.

  23. Agree with my view

    I agree with my view.

    If you go google “Gay Day at Disneyland” you’ll be shocked at the blatant open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children. Also, look up the list of sponsors. One sponsor is called “here!” and is a sexually explicit gay website.

    this is gross. Also look at the “gay pride” parades in San Francisco. These are not “gay tolerance” parades, they are gay pride parades. In other words, you should be proud to be gay.

    Yet where are the Gay groups on that? Where are no on 8 people? Do they do anything to oppose those things? Does the ACLU oppose this balatant attempt at homosexualization of children and society? No. Then they are upset because some parents are upset and start to begin to worry about gay marriage becoming the same sort of thing.

    tell you what. I’ll cut you a deal. You do something about Gay Day at Anaheim, then we’ll talk about my vote on prop. 8.

  24. Agree with my view

    I agree with my view.

    If you go google “Gay Day at Disneyland” you’ll be shocked at the blatant open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children. Also, look up the list of sponsors. One sponsor is called “here!” and is a sexually explicit gay website.

    this is gross. Also look at the “gay pride” parades in San Francisco. These are not “gay tolerance” parades, they are gay pride parades. In other words, you should be proud to be gay.

    Yet where are the Gay groups on that? Where are no on 8 people? Do they do anything to oppose those things? Does the ACLU oppose this balatant attempt at homosexualization of children and society? No. Then they are upset because some parents are upset and start to begin to worry about gay marriage becoming the same sort of thing.

    tell you what. I’ll cut you a deal. You do something about Gay Day at Anaheim, then we’ll talk about my vote on prop. 8.

  25. David M. Greenwald

    “In other words, you should be proud to be gay.”

    Why shouldn’t you? I’m proud to be Jewish. I should ask for people to be tolerant of my being Jewish?

    I don’t get your point. I don’t want your vote.

  26. David M. Greenwald

    “In other words, you should be proud to be gay.”

    Why shouldn’t you? I’m proud to be Jewish. I should ask for people to be tolerant of my being Jewish?

    I don’t get your point. I don’t want your vote.

  27. David M. Greenwald

    “In other words, you should be proud to be gay.”

    Why shouldn’t you? I’m proud to be Jewish. I should ask for people to be tolerant of my being Jewish?

    I don’t get your point. I don’t want your vote.

  28. David M. Greenwald

    “In other words, you should be proud to be gay.”

    Why shouldn’t you? I’m proud to be Jewish. I should ask for people to be tolerant of my being Jewish?

    I don’t get your point. I don’t want your vote.

  29. Whinecrusher

    What DPD? Are the Prop 4 protestors taking to the streets? If so, your failed coverage of their protests is no excuse for your continuing to whine on the Prop 8 issue.

  30. Whinecrusher

    What DPD? Are the Prop 4 protestors taking to the streets? If so, your failed coverage of their protests is no excuse for your continuing to whine on the Prop 8 issue.

  31. Whinecrusher

    What DPD? Are the Prop 4 protestors taking to the streets? If so, your failed coverage of their protests is no excuse for your continuing to whine on the Prop 8 issue.

  32. Whinecrusher

    What DPD? Are the Prop 4 protestors taking to the streets? If so, your failed coverage of their protests is no excuse for your continuing to whine on the Prop 8 issue.

  33. David M. Greenwald

    Okay, so you are not objecting to revisiting the issue. Therefore, your objection is the fact that they are taking it to the streets–a point I at least partially agree with you on. On the other hand, as I moved on from that point, I acknowledge there is a political utility to proceeding–do you not agree?

  34. David M. Greenwald

    Okay, so you are not objecting to revisiting the issue. Therefore, your objection is the fact that they are taking it to the streets–a point I at least partially agree with you on. On the other hand, as I moved on from that point, I acknowledge there is a political utility to proceeding–do you not agree?

  35. David M. Greenwald

    Okay, so you are not objecting to revisiting the issue. Therefore, your objection is the fact that they are taking it to the streets–a point I at least partially agree with you on. On the other hand, as I moved on from that point, I acknowledge there is a political utility to proceeding–do you not agree?

  36. David M. Greenwald

    Okay, so you are not objecting to revisiting the issue. Therefore, your objection is the fact that they are taking it to the streets–a point I at least partially agree with you on. On the other hand, as I moved on from that point, I acknowledge there is a political utility to proceeding–do you not agree?

  37. My View

    “tell you what. I’ll cut you a deal. You do something about Gay Day at Anaheim, then we’ll talk about my vote on prop. 8.”

    Hey agree, I love this analysis! It hits right at the heart of what I was trying to point out. “Gay marriage” is only one of many attempts to corrupt and destabilize the concept of the nuclear family with a father and mother. If gays truly want acceptance, then they need to act like civilized human beings, ask for equal rights from civil unions, and stop pushing their agenda down everyones’ throats.

    “What has led to the breakdown of marriage has nothing to do with tinkering with the traditional definition. The rise of divorce in part is due to the lack of economic ties for women to men.”

    Bullhockey! What has led to the breakdown of marriage is the oversexualization of society, that anything goes – including oral sex, homosexual sex, premarital sex, extramarital sex. Just look at Hollywood and that is the direction we are going as a society. And it has had terrible consequences, the results of which we are seeing now with our children. What our young girls wear now makes them look like street walkers in the red light district.

    “I don’t see how getting older or having children is going to change my outlook”

    Give yourself time and more maturity – I went through the same transition myself. We all do, or at least those of us with an open mind and who don’t want to remain immature.

  38. My View

    “tell you what. I’ll cut you a deal. You do something about Gay Day at Anaheim, then we’ll talk about my vote on prop. 8.”

    Hey agree, I love this analysis! It hits right at the heart of what I was trying to point out. “Gay marriage” is only one of many attempts to corrupt and destabilize the concept of the nuclear family with a father and mother. If gays truly want acceptance, then they need to act like civilized human beings, ask for equal rights from civil unions, and stop pushing their agenda down everyones’ throats.

    “What has led to the breakdown of marriage has nothing to do with tinkering with the traditional definition. The rise of divorce in part is due to the lack of economic ties for women to men.”

    Bullhockey! What has led to the breakdown of marriage is the oversexualization of society, that anything goes – including oral sex, homosexual sex, premarital sex, extramarital sex. Just look at Hollywood and that is the direction we are going as a society. And it has had terrible consequences, the results of which we are seeing now with our children. What our young girls wear now makes them look like street walkers in the red light district.

    “I don’t see how getting older or having children is going to change my outlook”

    Give yourself time and more maturity – I went through the same transition myself. We all do, or at least those of us with an open mind and who don’t want to remain immature.

  39. My View

    “tell you what. I’ll cut you a deal. You do something about Gay Day at Anaheim, then we’ll talk about my vote on prop. 8.”

    Hey agree, I love this analysis! It hits right at the heart of what I was trying to point out. “Gay marriage” is only one of many attempts to corrupt and destabilize the concept of the nuclear family with a father and mother. If gays truly want acceptance, then they need to act like civilized human beings, ask for equal rights from civil unions, and stop pushing their agenda down everyones’ throats.

    “What has led to the breakdown of marriage has nothing to do with tinkering with the traditional definition. The rise of divorce in part is due to the lack of economic ties for women to men.”

    Bullhockey! What has led to the breakdown of marriage is the oversexualization of society, that anything goes – including oral sex, homosexual sex, premarital sex, extramarital sex. Just look at Hollywood and that is the direction we are going as a society. And it has had terrible consequences, the results of which we are seeing now with our children. What our young girls wear now makes them look like street walkers in the red light district.

    “I don’t see how getting older or having children is going to change my outlook”

    Give yourself time and more maturity – I went through the same transition myself. We all do, or at least those of us with an open mind and who don’t want to remain immature.

  40. My View

    “tell you what. I’ll cut you a deal. You do something about Gay Day at Anaheim, then we’ll talk about my vote on prop. 8.”

    Hey agree, I love this analysis! It hits right at the heart of what I was trying to point out. “Gay marriage” is only one of many attempts to corrupt and destabilize the concept of the nuclear family with a father and mother. If gays truly want acceptance, then they need to act like civilized human beings, ask for equal rights from civil unions, and stop pushing their agenda down everyones’ throats.

    “What has led to the breakdown of marriage has nothing to do with tinkering with the traditional definition. The rise of divorce in part is due to the lack of economic ties for women to men.”

    Bullhockey! What has led to the breakdown of marriage is the oversexualization of society, that anything goes – including oral sex, homosexual sex, premarital sex, extramarital sex. Just look at Hollywood and that is the direction we are going as a society. And it has had terrible consequences, the results of which we are seeing now with our children. What our young girls wear now makes them look like street walkers in the red light district.

    “I don’t see how getting older or having children is going to change my outlook”

    Give yourself time and more maturity – I went through the same transition myself. We all do, or at least those of us with an open mind and who don’t want to remain immature.

  41. CA Dem

    We’re here at the CA dem party E-board meeting in Orange County and the No on 8 supporters are holding a rally outside of the Sheridan in Anaheim. The Democrats are committed to fighting Prop 8 in the courts and in neighborhoods by educating the public on the issue so that the public knows it’s a civil rights issue not a religious one.

  42. CA Dem

    We’re here at the CA dem party E-board meeting in Orange County and the No on 8 supporters are holding a rally outside of the Sheridan in Anaheim. The Democrats are committed to fighting Prop 8 in the courts and in neighborhoods by educating the public on the issue so that the public knows it’s a civil rights issue not a religious one.

  43. CA Dem

    We’re here at the CA dem party E-board meeting in Orange County and the No on 8 supporters are holding a rally outside of the Sheridan in Anaheim. The Democrats are committed to fighting Prop 8 in the courts and in neighborhoods by educating the public on the issue so that the public knows it’s a civil rights issue not a religious one.

  44. CA Dem

    We’re here at the CA dem party E-board meeting in Orange County and the No on 8 supporters are holding a rally outside of the Sheridan in Anaheim. The Democrats are committed to fighting Prop 8 in the courts and in neighborhoods by educating the public on the issue so that the public knows it’s a civil rights issue not a religious one.

  45. Anonymous


    Bullhockey! What has led to the breakdown of marriage is the oversexualization of society, that anything goes – including oral sex, homosexual sex, premarital sex, extramarital sex. Just look at Hollywood and that is the direction we are going as a society. And it has had terrible consequences, the results of which we are seeing now with our children. What our young girls wear now makes them look like street walkers in the red light district.”

    So it’s not gay marriage–got it.

  46. Anonymous


    Bullhockey! What has led to the breakdown of marriage is the oversexualization of society, that anything goes – including oral sex, homosexual sex, premarital sex, extramarital sex. Just look at Hollywood and that is the direction we are going as a society. And it has had terrible consequences, the results of which we are seeing now with our children. What our young girls wear now makes them look like street walkers in the red light district.”

    So it’s not gay marriage–got it.

  47. Anonymous


    Bullhockey! What has led to the breakdown of marriage is the oversexualization of society, that anything goes – including oral sex, homosexual sex, premarital sex, extramarital sex. Just look at Hollywood and that is the direction we are going as a society. And it has had terrible consequences, the results of which we are seeing now with our children. What our young girls wear now makes them look like street walkers in the red light district.”

    So it’s not gay marriage–got it.

  48. Anonymous


    Bullhockey! What has led to the breakdown of marriage is the oversexualization of society, that anything goes – including oral sex, homosexual sex, premarital sex, extramarital sex. Just look at Hollywood and that is the direction we are going as a society. And it has had terrible consequences, the results of which we are seeing now with our children. What our young girls wear now makes them look like street walkers in the red light district.”

    So it’s not gay marriage–got it.

  49. Anonymous

    “If gays truly want acceptance, then they need to act like civilized human beings, ask for equal rights from civil unions, and stop pushing their agenda down everyones’ throats.”

    Why are you lumping all people in with the most extreme elements? Let me ask you this, do you hold the behavior of hetrosexuals at frat parties and strip joints against their right to marry?

  50. Anonymous

    “If gays truly want acceptance, then they need to act like civilized human beings, ask for equal rights from civil unions, and stop pushing their agenda down everyones’ throats.”

    Why are you lumping all people in with the most extreme elements? Let me ask you this, do you hold the behavior of hetrosexuals at frat parties and strip joints against their right to marry?

  51. Anonymous

    “If gays truly want acceptance, then they need to act like civilized human beings, ask for equal rights from civil unions, and stop pushing their agenda down everyones’ throats.”

    Why are you lumping all people in with the most extreme elements? Let me ask you this, do you hold the behavior of hetrosexuals at frat parties and strip joints against their right to marry?

  52. Anonymous

    “If gays truly want acceptance, then they need to act like civilized human beings, ask for equal rights from civil unions, and stop pushing their agenda down everyones’ throats.”

    Why are you lumping all people in with the most extreme elements? Let me ask you this, do you hold the behavior of hetrosexuals at frat parties and strip joints against their right to marry?

  53. Anonymous

    “As you point out, there are downsides to openness. You bet your sweet bippy there are! Kids now experiment with oral sex (thanks to former President Clinton), homosexual sex, promiscuity, like they never have before.”

    You equate homosexuality with promiscuous and open sexuality. I would invite you to spend a Saturday morning walking through the Farmer’s Market and identify the homosexuals. Maybe you will see Shelly Bailes or Ellen Pontac, but chances are you will probably miss identifying most of them that you don’t know personally.

    There are heterosexuals who are as there are homosexuals who show exhibitionist tendancies. Personally I prefer a more conservative stance. But I think it is a fallacy to equate homosexuality to exhibitionism and promiscuity. Most are not any different than heterosexuals in that regard.

    By the way, I am a parent and my view of homosexuality has not changed. I find myself in agreement with Greenwald.

    “Europe is jealous of our traditions and successes, and would like nothing better than to destroy us from within – to fracture our society so it becomes as troublesome as theirs.”

    Overgeneralization. You will find that Europeans appreciate the U.S. in ways that Americans appreciate Europe — interesting culture and history, but most are happy to live where they are. And that’s probably the way it should be. I say this from my experience of having studied overseas for a year.

    “Are the Prop 4 protestors taking to the streets? If so, your failed coverage of their protests is no excuse for your continuing to whine on the Prop 8 issue.”

    Please remind me what Prop. 4 was about. I think Prop. 8 is clearly more an issue of local interest.

  54. Anonymous

    “As you point out, there are downsides to openness. You bet your sweet bippy there are! Kids now experiment with oral sex (thanks to former President Clinton), homosexual sex, promiscuity, like they never have before.”

    You equate homosexuality with promiscuous and open sexuality. I would invite you to spend a Saturday morning walking through the Farmer’s Market and identify the homosexuals. Maybe you will see Shelly Bailes or Ellen Pontac, but chances are you will probably miss identifying most of them that you don’t know personally.

    There are heterosexuals who are as there are homosexuals who show exhibitionist tendancies. Personally I prefer a more conservative stance. But I think it is a fallacy to equate homosexuality to exhibitionism and promiscuity. Most are not any different than heterosexuals in that regard.

    By the way, I am a parent and my view of homosexuality has not changed. I find myself in agreement with Greenwald.

    “Europe is jealous of our traditions and successes, and would like nothing better than to destroy us from within – to fracture our society so it becomes as troublesome as theirs.”

    Overgeneralization. You will find that Europeans appreciate the U.S. in ways that Americans appreciate Europe — interesting culture and history, but most are happy to live where they are. And that’s probably the way it should be. I say this from my experience of having studied overseas for a year.

    “Are the Prop 4 protestors taking to the streets? If so, your failed coverage of their protests is no excuse for your continuing to whine on the Prop 8 issue.”

    Please remind me what Prop. 4 was about. I think Prop. 8 is clearly more an issue of local interest.

  55. Anonymous

    “As you point out, there are downsides to openness. You bet your sweet bippy there are! Kids now experiment with oral sex (thanks to former President Clinton), homosexual sex, promiscuity, like they never have before.”

    You equate homosexuality with promiscuous and open sexuality. I would invite you to spend a Saturday morning walking through the Farmer’s Market and identify the homosexuals. Maybe you will see Shelly Bailes or Ellen Pontac, but chances are you will probably miss identifying most of them that you don’t know personally.

    There are heterosexuals who are as there are homosexuals who show exhibitionist tendancies. Personally I prefer a more conservative stance. But I think it is a fallacy to equate homosexuality to exhibitionism and promiscuity. Most are not any different than heterosexuals in that regard.

    By the way, I am a parent and my view of homosexuality has not changed. I find myself in agreement with Greenwald.

    “Europe is jealous of our traditions and successes, and would like nothing better than to destroy us from within – to fracture our society so it becomes as troublesome as theirs.”

    Overgeneralization. You will find that Europeans appreciate the U.S. in ways that Americans appreciate Europe — interesting culture and history, but most are happy to live where they are. And that’s probably the way it should be. I say this from my experience of having studied overseas for a year.

    “Are the Prop 4 protestors taking to the streets? If so, your failed coverage of their protests is no excuse for your continuing to whine on the Prop 8 issue.”

    Please remind me what Prop. 4 was about. I think Prop. 8 is clearly more an issue of local interest.

  56. Anonymous

    “As you point out, there are downsides to openness. You bet your sweet bippy there are! Kids now experiment with oral sex (thanks to former President Clinton), homosexual sex, promiscuity, like they never have before.”

    You equate homosexuality with promiscuous and open sexuality. I would invite you to spend a Saturday morning walking through the Farmer’s Market and identify the homosexuals. Maybe you will see Shelly Bailes or Ellen Pontac, but chances are you will probably miss identifying most of them that you don’t know personally.

    There are heterosexuals who are as there are homosexuals who show exhibitionist tendancies. Personally I prefer a more conservative stance. But I think it is a fallacy to equate homosexuality to exhibitionism and promiscuity. Most are not any different than heterosexuals in that regard.

    By the way, I am a parent and my view of homosexuality has not changed. I find myself in agreement with Greenwald.

    “Europe is jealous of our traditions and successes, and would like nothing better than to destroy us from within – to fracture our society so it becomes as troublesome as theirs.”

    Overgeneralization. You will find that Europeans appreciate the U.S. in ways that Americans appreciate Europe — interesting culture and history, but most are happy to live where they are. And that’s probably the way it should be. I say this from my experience of having studied overseas for a year.

    “Are the Prop 4 protestors taking to the streets? If so, your failed coverage of their protests is no excuse for your continuing to whine on the Prop 8 issue.”

    Please remind me what Prop. 4 was about. I think Prop. 8 is clearly more an issue of local interest.

  57. Agrees with my view

    “Maybe you will see Shelly Bailes or Ellen Pontac, but chances are you will probably miss identifying most of them that you don’t know personally.”

    Actually, I met one of them. Obnoxious as all hell. Came up to me and said “I want to talk to you.”

    We’ll put “talk” in quotes because she was doing most of the talking and it was clear she was only interested in talking to me insofar is that I could listen to her speech about why I should not vote yes on prop. 8. When I presented anything differently than what she said, she was uninteresed.

    Second, Gay Day at Anaheim is a problem. it is a blatant attempt to push our children into homosexual behavior. The Website is smoking gun evidence that homosexuality is being promoted towards kids. The sponsors of this day have to know that their sexual behavior will be viewed an seen by children. They cannot weasel out of it.

    Third, you might want to tell Roseanne Barr to shut up before her mouth starts making converts in favor of proposition 8, much like Gavin Newsom.

  58. Agrees with my view

    “Maybe you will see Shelly Bailes or Ellen Pontac, but chances are you will probably miss identifying most of them that you don’t know personally.”

    Actually, I met one of them. Obnoxious as all hell. Came up to me and said “I want to talk to you.”

    We’ll put “talk” in quotes because she was doing most of the talking and it was clear she was only interested in talking to me insofar is that I could listen to her speech about why I should not vote yes on prop. 8. When I presented anything differently than what she said, she was uninteresed.

    Second, Gay Day at Anaheim is a problem. it is a blatant attempt to push our children into homosexual behavior. The Website is smoking gun evidence that homosexuality is being promoted towards kids. The sponsors of this day have to know that their sexual behavior will be viewed an seen by children. They cannot weasel out of it.

    Third, you might want to tell Roseanne Barr to shut up before her mouth starts making converts in favor of proposition 8, much like Gavin Newsom.

  59. Agrees with my view

    “Maybe you will see Shelly Bailes or Ellen Pontac, but chances are you will probably miss identifying most of them that you don’t know personally.”

    Actually, I met one of them. Obnoxious as all hell. Came up to me and said “I want to talk to you.”

    We’ll put “talk” in quotes because she was doing most of the talking and it was clear she was only interested in talking to me insofar is that I could listen to her speech about why I should not vote yes on prop. 8. When I presented anything differently than what she said, she was uninteresed.

    Second, Gay Day at Anaheim is a problem. it is a blatant attempt to push our children into homosexual behavior. The Website is smoking gun evidence that homosexuality is being promoted towards kids. The sponsors of this day have to know that their sexual behavior will be viewed an seen by children. They cannot weasel out of it.

    Third, you might want to tell Roseanne Barr to shut up before her mouth starts making converts in favor of proposition 8, much like Gavin Newsom.

  60. Agrees with my view

    “Maybe you will see Shelly Bailes or Ellen Pontac, but chances are you will probably miss identifying most of them that you don’t know personally.”

    Actually, I met one of them. Obnoxious as all hell. Came up to me and said “I want to talk to you.”

    We’ll put “talk” in quotes because she was doing most of the talking and it was clear she was only interested in talking to me insofar is that I could listen to her speech about why I should not vote yes on prop. 8. When I presented anything differently than what she said, she was uninteresed.

    Second, Gay Day at Anaheim is a problem. it is a blatant attempt to push our children into homosexual behavior. The Website is smoking gun evidence that homosexuality is being promoted towards kids. The sponsors of this day have to know that their sexual behavior will be viewed an seen by children. They cannot weasel out of it.

    Third, you might want to tell Roseanne Barr to shut up before her mouth starts making converts in favor of proposition 8, much like Gavin Newsom.

  61. Anonymous

    “Second, Gay Day at Anaheim is a problem. it is a blatant attempt to push our children into homosexual behavior. “

    Does that represent the average gay person or the extreme element?

  62. Anonymous

    “Second, Gay Day at Anaheim is a problem. it is a blatant attempt to push our children into homosexual behavior. “

    Does that represent the average gay person or the extreme element?

  63. Anonymous

    “Second, Gay Day at Anaheim is a problem. it is a blatant attempt to push our children into homosexual behavior. “

    Does that represent the average gay person or the extreme element?

  64. Anonymous

    “Second, Gay Day at Anaheim is a problem. it is a blatant attempt to push our children into homosexual behavior. “

    Does that represent the average gay person or the extreme element?

  65. David M. Greenwald

    “Third, you might want to tell Roseanne Barr to shut up before her mouth starts making converts in favor of proposition 8, much like Gavin Newsom.”

    I’d love for them to shut up, but I don’t have much control over them and there is that pesky first amendment problem. I suppose you like to be held accountable for the most obnoxious people who share views with you on certain issues?

  66. David M. Greenwald

    “Third, you might want to tell Roseanne Barr to shut up before her mouth starts making converts in favor of proposition 8, much like Gavin Newsom.”

    I’d love for them to shut up, but I don’t have much control over them and there is that pesky first amendment problem. I suppose you like to be held accountable for the most obnoxious people who share views with you on certain issues?

  67. David M. Greenwald

    “Third, you might want to tell Roseanne Barr to shut up before her mouth starts making converts in favor of proposition 8, much like Gavin Newsom.”

    I’d love for them to shut up, but I don’t have much control over them and there is that pesky first amendment problem. I suppose you like to be held accountable for the most obnoxious people who share views with you on certain issues?

  68. David M. Greenwald

    “Third, you might want to tell Roseanne Barr to shut up before her mouth starts making converts in favor of proposition 8, much like Gavin Newsom.”

    I’d love for them to shut up, but I don’t have much control over them and there is that pesky first amendment problem. I suppose you like to be held accountable for the most obnoxious people who share views with you on certain issues?

  69. Mike Adams

    I am wondering why government is in the marriage business, if marriage is fundamentally religious in nature. Why doesn’t the state restrict itself to granting licenses for civil unions (a sort of personal corporation if you will) to any couple and let churches and their congregations determine what marriage is within each faith.

    Then we have both equal treatment under the law and freedom of religious belief.

    Regarding Prop 8, if you really oppose the destruction of traditional marriage it seems like your primary focus would be to outlaw divorce.

  70. Mike Adams

    I am wondering why government is in the marriage business, if marriage is fundamentally religious in nature. Why doesn’t the state restrict itself to granting licenses for civil unions (a sort of personal corporation if you will) to any couple and let churches and their congregations determine what marriage is within each faith.

    Then we have both equal treatment under the law and freedom of religious belief.

    Regarding Prop 8, if you really oppose the destruction of traditional marriage it seems like your primary focus would be to outlaw divorce.

  71. Mike Adams

    I am wondering why government is in the marriage business, if marriage is fundamentally religious in nature. Why doesn’t the state restrict itself to granting licenses for civil unions (a sort of personal corporation if you will) to any couple and let churches and their congregations determine what marriage is within each faith.

    Then we have both equal treatment under the law and freedom of religious belief.

    Regarding Prop 8, if you really oppose the destruction of traditional marriage it seems like your primary focus would be to outlaw divorce.

  72. Mike Adams

    I am wondering why government is in the marriage business, if marriage is fundamentally religious in nature. Why doesn’t the state restrict itself to granting licenses for civil unions (a sort of personal corporation if you will) to any couple and let churches and their congregations determine what marriage is within each faith.

    Then we have both equal treatment under the law and freedom of religious belief.

    Regarding Prop 8, if you really oppose the destruction of traditional marriage it seems like your primary focus would be to outlaw divorce.

  73. Anonymous

    “Actually, I met one of them. Obnoxious as all hell. Came up to me and said “I want to talk to you.”

    We’ll put “talk” in quotes because she was doing most of the talking and it was clear she was only interested in talking to me insofar is that I could listen to her speech about why I should not vote yes on prop. 8. When I presented anything differently than what she said, she was uninteresed.”

    So can you pick out the other homosexuals in the Farmers’ Market based on their flamboyance?

    This argument that homosexuals degrade society because of their exhibitionism and promiscuity is way off the mark.

  74. Anonymous

    “Actually, I met one of them. Obnoxious as all hell. Came up to me and said “I want to talk to you.”

    We’ll put “talk” in quotes because she was doing most of the talking and it was clear she was only interested in talking to me insofar is that I could listen to her speech about why I should not vote yes on prop. 8. When I presented anything differently than what she said, she was uninteresed.”

    So can you pick out the other homosexuals in the Farmers’ Market based on their flamboyance?

    This argument that homosexuals degrade society because of their exhibitionism and promiscuity is way off the mark.

  75. Anonymous

    “Actually, I met one of them. Obnoxious as all hell. Came up to me and said “I want to talk to you.”

    We’ll put “talk” in quotes because she was doing most of the talking and it was clear she was only interested in talking to me insofar is that I could listen to her speech about why I should not vote yes on prop. 8. When I presented anything differently than what she said, she was uninteresed.”

    So can you pick out the other homosexuals in the Farmers’ Market based on their flamboyance?

    This argument that homosexuals degrade society because of their exhibitionism and promiscuity is way off the mark.

  76. Anonymous

    “Actually, I met one of them. Obnoxious as all hell. Came up to me and said “I want to talk to you.”

    We’ll put “talk” in quotes because she was doing most of the talking and it was clear she was only interested in talking to me insofar is that I could listen to her speech about why I should not vote yes on prop. 8. When I presented anything differently than what she said, she was uninteresed.”

    So can you pick out the other homosexuals in the Farmers’ Market based on their flamboyance?

    This argument that homosexuals degrade society because of their exhibitionism and promiscuity is way off the mark.

  77. another view

    “As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better.”

    My grandmother died decades ago still believing that legalized segregation was a better arrangement for society and that Earth was 6,000 years old.

    By your argument, I could imagine that I would be finally mature in your eyes once I believe legally defining marriage as between a man and a woman, that legalized segregation is the way to go, and that Earth is 6,000 years old.

    Could you identify social views that are completely acceptable to you and society today but that would have been shocking to your ancestors?

  78. another view

    “As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better.”

    My grandmother died decades ago still believing that legalized segregation was a better arrangement for society and that Earth was 6,000 years old.

    By your argument, I could imagine that I would be finally mature in your eyes once I believe legally defining marriage as between a man and a woman, that legalized segregation is the way to go, and that Earth is 6,000 years old.

    Could you identify social views that are completely acceptable to you and society today but that would have been shocking to your ancestors?

  79. another view

    “As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better.”

    My grandmother died decades ago still believing that legalized segregation was a better arrangement for society and that Earth was 6,000 years old.

    By your argument, I could imagine that I would be finally mature in your eyes once I believe legally defining marriage as between a man and a woman, that legalized segregation is the way to go, and that Earth is 6,000 years old.

    Could you identify social views that are completely acceptable to you and society today but that would have been shocking to your ancestors?

  80. another view

    “As you get older, especially if you have children, you are going to get the picture better and better.”

    My grandmother died decades ago still believing that legalized segregation was a better arrangement for society and that Earth was 6,000 years old.

    By your argument, I could imagine that I would be finally mature in your eyes once I believe legally defining marriage as between a man and a woman, that legalized segregation is the way to go, and that Earth is 6,000 years old.

    Could you identify social views that are completely acceptable to you and society today but that would have been shocking to your ancestors?

  81. Anonymous

    Over the years I have seen our society deteriorate. The idea of becoming open about our feelings initially was a great idea. But we have taken that great idea and turned it in the opposite direction. It was great to have the ability to speak openly to a friend about things that were formerly taboo.

    But there are things that are not necessary to share. I don’t want my 6 year old to know she has herpes and he does not. Nor do I care what your opinion about a tampon you think is best. And my 11 year old does not need to know that if you ask your doctor he can cure his erectile dysfunction.

    But isn’t that what it was all about? Isn’t that being open? Isn’t that demonstration of acceptability, and tolerance? Or have we pushed the envelope beyond its intention?
    If I decide to live together with someone, I have rights. If I enter into a civil union with someone I have rights. If I “marry” I have rights.

    Our time should be better spent taking to the streets about the crisis that our communities, state, and our country is dealing with. Speak out about families and are living in their cars, homelessness, can’t get a job, crime is out of control. We are all in trouble people, and it’s not just what term is being used to be joined together. You are, they are, we all are in this together despite the terminology that is being used to describe it. So let’s protest about these other issues.

    The best way to win a war is to cause disention amongst the troops.

  82. Anonymous

    Over the years I have seen our society deteriorate. The idea of becoming open about our feelings initially was a great idea. But we have taken that great idea and turned it in the opposite direction. It was great to have the ability to speak openly to a friend about things that were formerly taboo.

    But there are things that are not necessary to share. I don’t want my 6 year old to know she has herpes and he does not. Nor do I care what your opinion about a tampon you think is best. And my 11 year old does not need to know that if you ask your doctor he can cure his erectile dysfunction.

    But isn’t that what it was all about? Isn’t that being open? Isn’t that demonstration of acceptability, and tolerance? Or have we pushed the envelope beyond its intention?
    If I decide to live together with someone, I have rights. If I enter into a civil union with someone I have rights. If I “marry” I have rights.

    Our time should be better spent taking to the streets about the crisis that our communities, state, and our country is dealing with. Speak out about families and are living in their cars, homelessness, can’t get a job, crime is out of control. We are all in trouble people, and it’s not just what term is being used to be joined together. You are, they are, we all are in this together despite the terminology that is being used to describe it. So let’s protest about these other issues.

    The best way to win a war is to cause disention amongst the troops.

  83. Anonymous

    Over the years I have seen our society deteriorate. The idea of becoming open about our feelings initially was a great idea. But we have taken that great idea and turned it in the opposite direction. It was great to have the ability to speak openly to a friend about things that were formerly taboo.

    But there are things that are not necessary to share. I don’t want my 6 year old to know she has herpes and he does not. Nor do I care what your opinion about a tampon you think is best. And my 11 year old does not need to know that if you ask your doctor he can cure his erectile dysfunction.

    But isn’t that what it was all about? Isn’t that being open? Isn’t that demonstration of acceptability, and tolerance? Or have we pushed the envelope beyond its intention?
    If I decide to live together with someone, I have rights. If I enter into a civil union with someone I have rights. If I “marry” I have rights.

    Our time should be better spent taking to the streets about the crisis that our communities, state, and our country is dealing with. Speak out about families and are living in their cars, homelessness, can’t get a job, crime is out of control. We are all in trouble people, and it’s not just what term is being used to be joined together. You are, they are, we all are in this together despite the terminology that is being used to describe it. So let’s protest about these other issues.

    The best way to win a war is to cause disention amongst the troops.

  84. Anonymous

    Over the years I have seen our society deteriorate. The idea of becoming open about our feelings initially was a great idea. But we have taken that great idea and turned it in the opposite direction. It was great to have the ability to speak openly to a friend about things that were formerly taboo.

    But there are things that are not necessary to share. I don’t want my 6 year old to know she has herpes and he does not. Nor do I care what your opinion about a tampon you think is best. And my 11 year old does not need to know that if you ask your doctor he can cure his erectile dysfunction.

    But isn’t that what it was all about? Isn’t that being open? Isn’t that demonstration of acceptability, and tolerance? Or have we pushed the envelope beyond its intention?
    If I decide to live together with someone, I have rights. If I enter into a civil union with someone I have rights. If I “marry” I have rights.

    Our time should be better spent taking to the streets about the crisis that our communities, state, and our country is dealing with. Speak out about families and are living in their cars, homelessness, can’t get a job, crime is out of control. We are all in trouble people, and it’s not just what term is being used to be joined together. You are, they are, we all are in this together despite the terminology that is being used to describe it. So let’s protest about these other issues.

    The best way to win a war is to cause disention amongst the troops.

  85. Harvey Milk

    “Where were you before November 4?”

    Where were you David? You were right here giving editorial space to the forces of hate. Oh yes they were the intellectual type of haters that you like to give voice to on your blog but they were haters none the less.

    Now people are upset and letting the steam out of the kettle and you don’t seem to understand it. Its really easy, before the election they were working within the system after the election they are challenging the system using other parts of our system in a social movement that isn’t going away.

    One thing is sure odd about this blog you guys write all this crap and then claim no responsibility for it. You give all this space to the yes on 8 people and then claim to be for gay marriage and Rifkin rips measure W and then comes on here after the fact claiming that he voted for W in the sanctuary of the voting booth. You guys are a riot, just be glad that the no on 8 forces are only demonstrating using their 1st amendment right of assembly.

  86. Harvey Milk

    “Where were you before November 4?”

    Where were you David? You were right here giving editorial space to the forces of hate. Oh yes they were the intellectual type of haters that you like to give voice to on your blog but they were haters none the less.

    Now people are upset and letting the steam out of the kettle and you don’t seem to understand it. Its really easy, before the election they were working within the system after the election they are challenging the system using other parts of our system in a social movement that isn’t going away.

    One thing is sure odd about this blog you guys write all this crap and then claim no responsibility for it. You give all this space to the yes on 8 people and then claim to be for gay marriage and Rifkin rips measure W and then comes on here after the fact claiming that he voted for W in the sanctuary of the voting booth. You guys are a riot, just be glad that the no on 8 forces are only demonstrating using their 1st amendment right of assembly.

  87. Harvey Milk

    “Where were you before November 4?”

    Where were you David? You were right here giving editorial space to the forces of hate. Oh yes they were the intellectual type of haters that you like to give voice to on your blog but they were haters none the less.

    Now people are upset and letting the steam out of the kettle and you don’t seem to understand it. Its really easy, before the election they were working within the system after the election they are challenging the system using other parts of our system in a social movement that isn’t going away.

    One thing is sure odd about this blog you guys write all this crap and then claim no responsibility for it. You give all this space to the yes on 8 people and then claim to be for gay marriage and Rifkin rips measure W and then comes on here after the fact claiming that he voted for W in the sanctuary of the voting booth. You guys are a riot, just be glad that the no on 8 forces are only demonstrating using their 1st amendment right of assembly.

  88. Harvey Milk

    “Where were you before November 4?”

    Where were you David? You were right here giving editorial space to the forces of hate. Oh yes they were the intellectual type of haters that you like to give voice to on your blog but they were haters none the less.

    Now people are upset and letting the steam out of the kettle and you don’t seem to understand it. Its really easy, before the election they were working within the system after the election they are challenging the system using other parts of our system in a social movement that isn’t going away.

    One thing is sure odd about this blog you guys write all this crap and then claim no responsibility for it. You give all this space to the yes on 8 people and then claim to be for gay marriage and Rifkin rips measure W and then comes on here after the fact claiming that he voted for W in the sanctuary of the voting booth. You guys are a riot, just be glad that the no on 8 forces are only demonstrating using their 1st amendment right of assembly.

  89. Truth is stranger than Fiction

    I give space to public dialogue–all points of view. Bad me, I actually believe in free speech and public discourse.

    Yes, but some of your supporters do not.

    Second, you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. They are all about civil rights, equality, and all that PC stuff until they do not get their way at the ballot box. Then they decide mob rule should rule. It is their way or the highway.

    Quite frankly, I think some of the African Americans that voted in favor of prop. 8 should raise a stink at the ACLU and other groups for trying to invalidate their ballots. Did black people ever imagine being disenfranchised not by the Klan or skinheads, but the ACLU and gay groups?

    Disenfranchise voters to save civil rights. Quite the irony.

  90. Truth is stranger than Fiction

    I give space to public dialogue–all points of view. Bad me, I actually believe in free speech and public discourse.

    Yes, but some of your supporters do not.

    Second, you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. They are all about civil rights, equality, and all that PC stuff until they do not get their way at the ballot box. Then they decide mob rule should rule. It is their way or the highway.

    Quite frankly, I think some of the African Americans that voted in favor of prop. 8 should raise a stink at the ACLU and other groups for trying to invalidate their ballots. Did black people ever imagine being disenfranchised not by the Klan or skinheads, but the ACLU and gay groups?

    Disenfranchise voters to save civil rights. Quite the irony.

  91. Truth is stranger than Fiction

    I give space to public dialogue–all points of view. Bad me, I actually believe in free speech and public discourse.

    Yes, but some of your supporters do not.

    Second, you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. They are all about civil rights, equality, and all that PC stuff until they do not get their way at the ballot box. Then they decide mob rule should rule. It is their way or the highway.

    Quite frankly, I think some of the African Americans that voted in favor of prop. 8 should raise a stink at the ACLU and other groups for trying to invalidate their ballots. Did black people ever imagine being disenfranchised not by the Klan or skinheads, but the ACLU and gay groups?

    Disenfranchise voters to save civil rights. Quite the irony.

  92. Truth is stranger than Fiction

    I give space to public dialogue–all points of view. Bad me, I actually believe in free speech and public discourse.

    Yes, but some of your supporters do not.

    Second, you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. They are all about civil rights, equality, and all that PC stuff until they do not get their way at the ballot box. Then they decide mob rule should rule. It is their way or the highway.

    Quite frankly, I think some of the African Americans that voted in favor of prop. 8 should raise a stink at the ACLU and other groups for trying to invalidate their ballots. Did black people ever imagine being disenfranchised not by the Klan or skinheads, but the ACLU and gay groups?

    Disenfranchise voters to save civil rights. Quite the irony.

  93. David M. Greenwald

    “you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. “

    I wasn’t shocked.

    In what way is it mob rule? What impact will it have other to perhaps start organizing towards the rights?

  94. David M. Greenwald

    “you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. “

    I wasn’t shocked.

    In what way is it mob rule? What impact will it have other to perhaps start organizing towards the rights?

  95. David M. Greenwald

    “you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. “

    I wasn’t shocked.

    In what way is it mob rule? What impact will it have other to perhaps start organizing towards the rights?

  96. David M. Greenwald

    “you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. “

    I wasn’t shocked.

    In what way is it mob rule? What impact will it have other to perhaps start organizing towards the rights?

  97. Vanguard Supporter

    Then you’re the one, it is a consistent refrain. Other than allowing one person to post a pro-prop 8 article (a lousy one at that), in what way has he given voice to pro-prop 8 forces?

  98. Vanguard Supporter

    Then you’re the one, it is a consistent refrain. Other than allowing one person to post a pro-prop 8 article (a lousy one at that), in what way has he given voice to pro-prop 8 forces?

  99. Vanguard Supporter

    Then you’re the one, it is a consistent refrain. Other than allowing one person to post a pro-prop 8 article (a lousy one at that), in what way has he given voice to pro-prop 8 forces?

  100. Vanguard Supporter

    Then you’re the one, it is a consistent refrain. Other than allowing one person to post a pro-prop 8 article (a lousy one at that), in what way has he given voice to pro-prop 8 forces?

  101. Harvey Milk

    Yes that is how he gave aid and comfort to the forces of hate and the gay marriage advocates have zero tolerance for those who want to claim some sort of cover for their support for 8 however tangential it may be. I think David saw prop 8 as an exercize in democracy but it effects real people in the most intimate and fundamental manner. Just like the guy who just resigned from the theatre company for giving money to 8 David gave blog space to 8. Since money is the campaign equivalent of speech David should be both condemned and apologetic for lending support to prop 8.

  102. Harvey Milk

    Yes that is how he gave aid and comfort to the forces of hate and the gay marriage advocates have zero tolerance for those who want to claim some sort of cover for their support for 8 however tangential it may be. I think David saw prop 8 as an exercize in democracy but it effects real people in the most intimate and fundamental manner. Just like the guy who just resigned from the theatre company for giving money to 8 David gave blog space to 8. Since money is the campaign equivalent of speech David should be both condemned and apologetic for lending support to prop 8.

  103. Harvey Milk

    Yes that is how he gave aid and comfort to the forces of hate and the gay marriage advocates have zero tolerance for those who want to claim some sort of cover for their support for 8 however tangential it may be. I think David saw prop 8 as an exercize in democracy but it effects real people in the most intimate and fundamental manner. Just like the guy who just resigned from the theatre company for giving money to 8 David gave blog space to 8. Since money is the campaign equivalent of speech David should be both condemned and apologetic for lending support to prop 8.

  104. Harvey Milk

    Yes that is how he gave aid and comfort to the forces of hate and the gay marriage advocates have zero tolerance for those who want to claim some sort of cover for their support for 8 however tangential it may be. I think David saw prop 8 as an exercize in democracy but it effects real people in the most intimate and fundamental manner. Just like the guy who just resigned from the theatre company for giving money to 8 David gave blog space to 8. Since money is the campaign equivalent of speech David should be both condemned and apologetic for lending support to prop 8.

  105. Vanguard Supporter

    That is a bunch of nonsense, there are 10 articles on Prop 8, only one was pro. That’s an absurd charge. Moreover it seems to me he allowed a pretty weak piece to be used in defense of prop 8. If that is providing aid and comfort, I’m sure he’s not going to lose sleep over it.

  106. Vanguard Supporter

    That is a bunch of nonsense, there are 10 articles on Prop 8, only one was pro. That’s an absurd charge. Moreover it seems to me he allowed a pretty weak piece to be used in defense of prop 8. If that is providing aid and comfort, I’m sure he’s not going to lose sleep over it.

  107. Vanguard Supporter

    That is a bunch of nonsense, there are 10 articles on Prop 8, only one was pro. That’s an absurd charge. Moreover it seems to me he allowed a pretty weak piece to be used in defense of prop 8. If that is providing aid and comfort, I’m sure he’s not going to lose sleep over it.

  108. Vanguard Supporter

    That is a bunch of nonsense, there are 10 articles on Prop 8, only one was pro. That’s an absurd charge. Moreover it seems to me he allowed a pretty weak piece to be used in defense of prop 8. If that is providing aid and comfort, I’m sure he’s not going to lose sleep over it.

  109. Anonymous

    I don’t think anyone that was riding the fence on this issue was swayed by anything posted on this blog. Harvey Milk give it up. Was the moderator suppose to delete the comments you didn’t like? Jeez, give it a rest!

  110. Anonymous

    I don’t think anyone that was riding the fence on this issue was swayed by anything posted on this blog. Harvey Milk give it up. Was the moderator suppose to delete the comments you didn’t like? Jeez, give it a rest!

  111. Anonymous

    I don’t think anyone that was riding the fence on this issue was swayed by anything posted on this blog. Harvey Milk give it up. Was the moderator suppose to delete the comments you didn’t like? Jeez, give it a rest!

  112. Anonymous

    I don’t think anyone that was riding the fence on this issue was swayed by anything posted on this blog. Harvey Milk give it up. Was the moderator suppose to delete the comments you didn’t like? Jeez, give it a rest!

  113. chuck

    “But there are things that are not necessary to share. I don’t want my 6 year old to know she has herpes and he does not. Nor do I care what your opinion about a tampon you think is best. And my 11 year old does not need to know that if you ask your doctor he can cure his erectile dysfunction.”

    You can prevent a lot of this trash from entering into your children’s lives by turning off commercial TV and commercial radio. I find these questions did not come up with my kids in any big way until their teens, and that’s when I thought it was about right for them to have sex ed.

    This issue of legalized civil same-sex marriage harming kids is BS as far as I’m concerned.

  114. chuck

    “But there are things that are not necessary to share. I don’t want my 6 year old to know she has herpes and he does not. Nor do I care what your opinion about a tampon you think is best. And my 11 year old does not need to know that if you ask your doctor he can cure his erectile dysfunction.”

    You can prevent a lot of this trash from entering into your children’s lives by turning off commercial TV and commercial radio. I find these questions did not come up with my kids in any big way until their teens, and that’s when I thought it was about right for them to have sex ed.

    This issue of legalized civil same-sex marriage harming kids is BS as far as I’m concerned.

  115. chuck

    “But there are things that are not necessary to share. I don’t want my 6 year old to know she has herpes and he does not. Nor do I care what your opinion about a tampon you think is best. And my 11 year old does not need to know that if you ask your doctor he can cure his erectile dysfunction.”

    You can prevent a lot of this trash from entering into your children’s lives by turning off commercial TV and commercial radio. I find these questions did not come up with my kids in any big way until their teens, and that’s when I thought it was about right for them to have sex ed.

    This issue of legalized civil same-sex marriage harming kids is BS as far as I’m concerned.

  116. chuck

    “But there are things that are not necessary to share. I don’t want my 6 year old to know she has herpes and he does not. Nor do I care what your opinion about a tampon you think is best. And my 11 year old does not need to know that if you ask your doctor he can cure his erectile dysfunction.”

    You can prevent a lot of this trash from entering into your children’s lives by turning off commercial TV and commercial radio. I find these questions did not come up with my kids in any big way until their teens, and that’s when I thought it was about right for them to have sex ed.

    This issue of legalized civil same-sex marriage harming kids is BS as far as I’m concerned.

  117. Harvey Milk

    It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.

  118. Harvey Milk

    It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.

  119. Harvey Milk

    It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.

  120. Harvey Milk

    It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.

  121. Another Vanguardian

    Milk:

    Just so we’re clear, what is David’s obligation? Is he only supposed to post stuff he agrees with? Is he only supposed to post stuff you agree with? Is he only supposed to post stuff you agree with on issues that you consider important?

  122. Another Vanguardian

    Milk:

    Just so we’re clear, what is David’s obligation? Is he only supposed to post stuff he agrees with? Is he only supposed to post stuff you agree with? Is he only supposed to post stuff you agree with on issues that you consider important?

  123. Another Vanguardian

    Milk:

    Just so we’re clear, what is David’s obligation? Is he only supposed to post stuff he agrees with? Is he only supposed to post stuff you agree with? Is he only supposed to post stuff you agree with on issues that you consider important?

  124. Another Vanguardian

    Milk:

    Just so we’re clear, what is David’s obligation? Is he only supposed to post stuff he agrees with? Is he only supposed to post stuff you agree with? Is he only supposed to post stuff you agree with on issues that you consider important?

  125. harvy milk

    There are demonstrations in the streets all over the country about 8. I’m the only one complaining about your blog. Face it you carried water for the forces of hate by giving them access. Repent!

  126. harvy milk

    There are demonstrations in the streets all over the country about 8. I’m the only one complaining about your blog. Face it you carried water for the forces of hate by giving them access. Repent!

  127. harvy milk

    There are demonstrations in the streets all over the country about 8. I’m the only one complaining about your blog. Face it you carried water for the forces of hate by giving them access. Repent!

  128. harvy milk

    There are demonstrations in the streets all over the country about 8. I’m the only one complaining about your blog. Face it you carried water for the forces of hate by giving them access. Repent!

  129. Anonymous

    “It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.”

    Probably a majority of readers of this blog have liberal tendancies and probably voted no on 8.

    I also see that a lot of bloggers like to engage in argument and discussion. If everyone on this blog aggreed on an issue, this would be a very boring place to visit.

    Liberals and conservatives alike should have their values challenged, if for no other reason to understand why they hold their views.

    I thought the Yes on 8 piece was interesting to see where a supporter is coming from. It didn’t change my mind, and I rather doubt it changed many people’s minds, here.

    But it was valuable to read.

  130. Anonymous

    “It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.”

    Probably a majority of readers of this blog have liberal tendancies and probably voted no on 8.

    I also see that a lot of bloggers like to engage in argument and discussion. If everyone on this blog aggreed on an issue, this would be a very boring place to visit.

    Liberals and conservatives alike should have their values challenged, if for no other reason to understand why they hold their views.

    I thought the Yes on 8 piece was interesting to see where a supporter is coming from. It didn’t change my mind, and I rather doubt it changed many people’s minds, here.

    But it was valuable to read.

  131. Anonymous

    “It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.”

    Probably a majority of readers of this blog have liberal tendancies and probably voted no on 8.

    I also see that a lot of bloggers like to engage in argument and discussion. If everyone on this blog aggreed on an issue, this would be a very boring place to visit.

    Liberals and conservatives alike should have their values challenged, if for no other reason to understand why they hold their views.

    I thought the Yes on 8 piece was interesting to see where a supporter is coming from. It didn’t change my mind, and I rather doubt it changed many people’s minds, here.

    But it was valuable to read.

  132. Anonymous

    “It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.”

    Probably a majority of readers of this blog have liberal tendancies and probably voted no on 8.

    I also see that a lot of bloggers like to engage in argument and discussion. If everyone on this blog aggreed on an issue, this would be a very boring place to visit.

    Liberals and conservatives alike should have their values challenged, if for no other reason to understand why they hold their views.

    I thought the Yes on 8 piece was interesting to see where a supporter is coming from. It didn’t change my mind, and I rather doubt it changed many people’s minds, here.

    But it was valuable to read.

  133. Anonymous

    From Slate magazine, Nov. 14,ANALOGY LESSON

    ….The sharp differences in the polling numbers, depending on whether the question is marriage as opposed to almost any other gay rights issue, suggest that opposition to same-sex marriage isn’t simply the 21st century’s form of racism. After all, whites who opposed racial miscegenation in the Jim Crow South didn’t support other civil rights for blacks or civil unions for mixed-race couples. In fact anti-miscegenation laws worked hand-in-glove with laws prohibiting sex outside of marriage and intimate cohabitation of unmarried adults to effectively outlaw interracial intimacy altogether. When Mildred Loving, who was black, and Richard Loving, who was white, successfully challenged Virginia’s law barring interracial marriage, they were not just fighting for social acceptance and hospital visitation rights. They were fighting a jail sentence, suspended on the condition that they leave the Virginia and never return together: effective banishment from the state. Anti-miscegenation laws were designed to prevent intimate racial mixing of any kind; by contrast, many of the people who voted to ban same-sex marriage are apparently supportive of same-sex intimacy—provided you don’t call it marriage.

  134. Anonymous

    From Slate magazine, Nov. 14,ANALOGY LESSON

    ….The sharp differences in the polling numbers, depending on whether the question is marriage as opposed to almost any other gay rights issue, suggest that opposition to same-sex marriage isn’t simply the 21st century’s form of racism. After all, whites who opposed racial miscegenation in the Jim Crow South didn’t support other civil rights for blacks or civil unions for mixed-race couples. In fact anti-miscegenation laws worked hand-in-glove with laws prohibiting sex outside of marriage and intimate cohabitation of unmarried adults to effectively outlaw interracial intimacy altogether. When Mildred Loving, who was black, and Richard Loving, who was white, successfully challenged Virginia’s law barring interracial marriage, they were not just fighting for social acceptance and hospital visitation rights. They were fighting a jail sentence, suspended on the condition that they leave the Virginia and never return together: effective banishment from the state. Anti-miscegenation laws were designed to prevent intimate racial mixing of any kind; by contrast, many of the people who voted to ban same-sex marriage are apparently supportive of same-sex intimacy—provided you don’t call it marriage.

  135. Anonymous

    From Slate magazine, Nov. 14,ANALOGY LESSON

    ….The sharp differences in the polling numbers, depending on whether the question is marriage as opposed to almost any other gay rights issue, suggest that opposition to same-sex marriage isn’t simply the 21st century’s form of racism. After all, whites who opposed racial miscegenation in the Jim Crow South didn’t support other civil rights for blacks or civil unions for mixed-race couples. In fact anti-miscegenation laws worked hand-in-glove with laws prohibiting sex outside of marriage and intimate cohabitation of unmarried adults to effectively outlaw interracial intimacy altogether. When Mildred Loving, who was black, and Richard Loving, who was white, successfully challenged Virginia’s law barring interracial marriage, they were not just fighting for social acceptance and hospital visitation rights. They were fighting a jail sentence, suspended on the condition that they leave the Virginia and never return together: effective banishment from the state. Anti-miscegenation laws were designed to prevent intimate racial mixing of any kind; by contrast, many of the people who voted to ban same-sex marriage are apparently supportive of same-sex intimacy—provided you don’t call it marriage.

  136. Anonymous

    From Slate magazine, Nov. 14,ANALOGY LESSON

    ….The sharp differences in the polling numbers, depending on whether the question is marriage as opposed to almost any other gay rights issue, suggest that opposition to same-sex marriage isn’t simply the 21st century’s form of racism. After all, whites who opposed racial miscegenation in the Jim Crow South didn’t support other civil rights for blacks or civil unions for mixed-race couples. In fact anti-miscegenation laws worked hand-in-glove with laws prohibiting sex outside of marriage and intimate cohabitation of unmarried adults to effectively outlaw interracial intimacy altogether. When Mildred Loving, who was black, and Richard Loving, who was white, successfully challenged Virginia’s law barring interracial marriage, they were not just fighting for social acceptance and hospital visitation rights. They were fighting a jail sentence, suspended on the condition that they leave the Virginia and never return together: effective banishment from the state. Anti-miscegenation laws were designed to prevent intimate racial mixing of any kind; by contrast, many of the people who voted to ban same-sex marriage are apparently supportive of same-sex intimacy—provided you don’t call it marriage.

  137. Disgusted

    “by contrast, many of the people who voted to ban same-sex marriage are apparently supportive of same-sex intimacy—provided you don’t call it marriage.”

    Right! Now you’ve got it. I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children. Man, woman, children, commitment. Do we always achieve it? No. Do we always achieve the absence of sin/bad behavior? No. Should we as a society strive for better marriages, the absence of sin/bad behavior. Absolutely.

    Gay Days at Disneyland and first graders attending a gay wedding is symptomatic of things to come – the gay life style is to be legitimized as perfectly OK to encourage. If I were raising kids today, I would have them opt out of sex ed in school. Simply turning off television does not insulate kids from damaging messages. And Gay Days at Disneyland does not send a positive message about homosexuality. Where are the more moderate elements in the gay movement on this issue? Totally AWOL. That tells me something.

    For those of you who want to marginalize the bad behavior of extremist gays, it is extremism that is holding sway these days – in the news, in our schools, everywhere. Moderate voices are being shouted down, so we are fighting back at the ballot box as best we can. Our society is being Hollywoodized – and look how happy those rich actors/actresses are with their perverted lifestyle – NOT. Such loose living is certainly not conducive to raising children who will grow up happy and secure.

  138. Disgusted

    “by contrast, many of the people who voted to ban same-sex marriage are apparently supportive of same-sex intimacy—provided you don’t call it marriage.”

    Right! Now you’ve got it. I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children. Man, woman, children, commitment. Do we always achieve it? No. Do we always achieve the absence of sin/bad behavior? No. Should we as a society strive for better marriages, the absence of sin/bad behavior. Absolutely.

    Gay Days at Disneyland and first graders attending a gay wedding is symptomatic of things to come – the gay life style is to be legitimized as perfectly OK to encourage. If I were raising kids today, I would have them opt out of sex ed in school. Simply turning off television does not insulate kids from damaging messages. And Gay Days at Disneyland does not send a positive message about homosexuality. Where are the more moderate elements in the gay movement on this issue? Totally AWOL. That tells me something.

    For those of you who want to marginalize the bad behavior of extremist gays, it is extremism that is holding sway these days – in the news, in our schools, everywhere. Moderate voices are being shouted down, so we are fighting back at the ballot box as best we can. Our society is being Hollywoodized – and look how happy those rich actors/actresses are with their perverted lifestyle – NOT. Such loose living is certainly not conducive to raising children who will grow up happy and secure.

  139. Disgusted

    “by contrast, many of the people who voted to ban same-sex marriage are apparently supportive of same-sex intimacy—provided you don’t call it marriage.”

    Right! Now you’ve got it. I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children. Man, woman, children, commitment. Do we always achieve it? No. Do we always achieve the absence of sin/bad behavior? No. Should we as a society strive for better marriages, the absence of sin/bad behavior. Absolutely.

    Gay Days at Disneyland and first graders attending a gay wedding is symptomatic of things to come – the gay life style is to be legitimized as perfectly OK to encourage. If I were raising kids today, I would have them opt out of sex ed in school. Simply turning off television does not insulate kids from damaging messages. And Gay Days at Disneyland does not send a positive message about homosexuality. Where are the more moderate elements in the gay movement on this issue? Totally AWOL. That tells me something.

    For those of you who want to marginalize the bad behavior of extremist gays, it is extremism that is holding sway these days – in the news, in our schools, everywhere. Moderate voices are being shouted down, so we are fighting back at the ballot box as best we can. Our society is being Hollywoodized – and look how happy those rich actors/actresses are with their perverted lifestyle – NOT. Such loose living is certainly not conducive to raising children who will grow up happy and secure.

  140. Disgusted

    “by contrast, many of the people who voted to ban same-sex marriage are apparently supportive of same-sex intimacy—provided you don’t call it marriage.”

    Right! Now you’ve got it. I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children. Man, woman, children, commitment. Do we always achieve it? No. Do we always achieve the absence of sin/bad behavior? No. Should we as a society strive for better marriages, the absence of sin/bad behavior. Absolutely.

    Gay Days at Disneyland and first graders attending a gay wedding is symptomatic of things to come – the gay life style is to be legitimized as perfectly OK to encourage. If I were raising kids today, I would have them opt out of sex ed in school. Simply turning off television does not insulate kids from damaging messages. And Gay Days at Disneyland does not send a positive message about homosexuality. Where are the more moderate elements in the gay movement on this issue? Totally AWOL. That tells me something.

    For those of you who want to marginalize the bad behavior of extremist gays, it is extremism that is holding sway these days – in the news, in our schools, everywhere. Moderate voices are being shouted down, so we are fighting back at the ballot box as best we can. Our society is being Hollywoodized – and look how happy those rich actors/actresses are with their perverted lifestyle – NOT. Such loose living is certainly not conducive to raising children who will grow up happy and secure.

  141. Anon

    David M. Greenwald said…
    “”you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. “

    I wasn’t shocked.

    In what way is it mob rule? What impact will it have other to perhaps start organizing towards the rights?”

    It shows a lack of respect for majority rule. The idea is if a minority yells long enough and loud enough, they will hold sway over the majority view – which is flat out undemocratic.

  142. Anon

    David M. Greenwald said…
    “”you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. “

    I wasn’t shocked.

    In what way is it mob rule? What impact will it have other to perhaps start organizing towards the rights?”

    It shows a lack of respect for majority rule. The idea is if a minority yells long enough and loud enough, they will hold sway over the majority view – which is flat out undemocratic.

  143. Anon

    David M. Greenwald said…
    “”you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. “

    I wasn’t shocked.

    In what way is it mob rule? What impact will it have other to perhaps start organizing towards the rights?”

    It shows a lack of respect for majority rule. The idea is if a minority yells long enough and loud enough, they will hold sway over the majority view – which is flat out undemocratic.

  144. Anon

    David M. Greenwald said…
    “”you should not be shocked at your supporters taking to the streets. “

    I wasn’t shocked.

    In what way is it mob rule? What impact will it have other to perhaps start organizing towards the rights?”

    It shows a lack of respect for majority rule. The idea is if a minority yells long enough and loud enough, they will hold sway over the majority view – which is flat out undemocratic.

  145. Turned off

    “”Shelly and Ellen? Those two turn most people off, on any subject.”

    Not in this town they don’t.”

    Oh yes they do. They arrogantly assume no one disagrees with them, even tho many do. They don’t ask what your opinion is on an issue, they tell you what yours should be. Very open minded of them!

  146. Turned off

    “”Shelly and Ellen? Those two turn most people off, on any subject.”

    Not in this town they don’t.”

    Oh yes they do. They arrogantly assume no one disagrees with them, even tho many do. They don’t ask what your opinion is on an issue, they tell you what yours should be. Very open minded of them!

  147. Turned off

    “”Shelly and Ellen? Those two turn most people off, on any subject.”

    Not in this town they don’t.”

    Oh yes they do. They arrogantly assume no one disagrees with them, even tho many do. They don’t ask what your opinion is on an issue, they tell you what yours should be. Very open minded of them!

  148. Turned off

    “”Shelly and Ellen? Those two turn most people off, on any subject.”

    Not in this town they don’t.”

    Oh yes they do. They arrogantly assume no one disagrees with them, even tho many do. They don’t ask what your opinion is on an issue, they tell you what yours should be. Very open minded of them!

  149. Older but Wiser

    “By your argument, I could imagine that I would be finally mature in your eyes once I believe legally defining marriage as between a man and a woman, that legalized segregation is the way to go, and that Earth is 6,000 years old.”

    No, you will be mature when you step back and better understand that Europe is trying to destabilize this country in any way it can, by tearing down our traditional institutions. We are being destroyed from within.

  150. Older but Wiser

    “By your argument, I could imagine that I would be finally mature in your eyes once I believe legally defining marriage as between a man and a woman, that legalized segregation is the way to go, and that Earth is 6,000 years old.”

    No, you will be mature when you step back and better understand that Europe is trying to destabilize this country in any way it can, by tearing down our traditional institutions. We are being destroyed from within.

  151. Older but Wiser

    “By your argument, I could imagine that I would be finally mature in your eyes once I believe legally defining marriage as between a man and a woman, that legalized segregation is the way to go, and that Earth is 6,000 years old.”

    No, you will be mature when you step back and better understand that Europe is trying to destabilize this country in any way it can, by tearing down our traditional institutions. We are being destroyed from within.

  152. Older but Wiser

    “By your argument, I could imagine that I would be finally mature in your eyes once I believe legally defining marriage as between a man and a woman, that legalized segregation is the way to go, and that Earth is 6,000 years old.”

    No, you will be mature when you step back and better understand that Europe is trying to destabilize this country in any way it can, by tearing down our traditional institutions. We are being destroyed from within.

  153. David M. Greenwald

    “It shows a lack of respect for majority rule. The idea is if a minority yells long enough and loud enough, they will hold sway over the majority view – which is flat out undemocratic.”

    As we’ve discussed previous, individuals rights should be protected by the constitution and not subject to majority rule. I don’t think it’s a matter of yelling, I think it’s a matter of organizing.

  154. David M. Greenwald

    “It shows a lack of respect for majority rule. The idea is if a minority yells long enough and loud enough, they will hold sway over the majority view – which is flat out undemocratic.”

    As we’ve discussed previous, individuals rights should be protected by the constitution and not subject to majority rule. I don’t think it’s a matter of yelling, I think it’s a matter of organizing.

  155. David M. Greenwald

    “It shows a lack of respect for majority rule. The idea is if a minority yells long enough and loud enough, they will hold sway over the majority view – which is flat out undemocratic.”

    As we’ve discussed previous, individuals rights should be protected by the constitution and not subject to majority rule. I don’t think it’s a matter of yelling, I think it’s a matter of organizing.

  156. David M. Greenwald

    “It shows a lack of respect for majority rule. The idea is if a minority yells long enough and loud enough, they will hold sway over the majority view – which is flat out undemocratic.”

    As we’ve discussed previous, individuals rights should be protected by the constitution and not subject to majority rule. I don’t think it’s a matter of yelling, I think it’s a matter of organizing.

  157. David M. Greenwald

    “Now you’ve got it. I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    So why wouldn’t you attack divorce as the far greatest threat to the “optimum way of raising children” rather than attacking something that will likely have very little impact over the raising of children.

  158. David M. Greenwald

    “Now you’ve got it. I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    So why wouldn’t you attack divorce as the far greatest threat to the “optimum way of raising children” rather than attacking something that will likely have very little impact over the raising of children.

  159. David M. Greenwald

    “Now you’ve got it. I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    So why wouldn’t you attack divorce as the far greatest threat to the “optimum way of raising children” rather than attacking something that will likely have very little impact over the raising of children.

  160. David M. Greenwald

    “Now you’ve got it. I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    So why wouldn’t you attack divorce as the far greatest threat to the “optimum way of raising children” rather than attacking something that will likely have very little impact over the raising of children.

  161. Anonymous

    Harvey Milk said…
    “It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.”

    You act as if people only read this blog for information and base their opinion solely on what’s said here. I doubt that’s the case for the vast majority of readers. Harvey please stop it, please!

  162. Disgusted

    I am looking at the following site:

    Gay Day Anaheim

    Can you please tell your objection to this? Because I don’t even see smoke, let alone a smoking gun?

    I looked, I saw, and it was not great. Talked about Juicy Fruit tidbits, ten places to have a “gay moment” in the park, etc. If Walt Disney were alive today, he would close the park before he would have allowed this type of sordid behavior sully his kingdom for children.

  163. Anonymous

    Harvey Milk said…
    “It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.”

    You act as if people only read this blog for information and base their opinion solely on what’s said here. I doubt that’s the case for the vast majority of readers. Harvey please stop it, please!

  164. Disgusted

    I am looking at the following site:

    Gay Day Anaheim

    Can you please tell your objection to this? Because I don’t even see smoke, let alone a smoking gun?

    I looked, I saw, and it was not great. Talked about Juicy Fruit tidbits, ten places to have a “gay moment” in the park, etc. If Walt Disney were alive today, he would close the park before he would have allowed this type of sordid behavior sully his kingdom for children.

  165. Anonymous

    Harvey Milk said…
    “It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.”

    You act as if people only read this blog for information and base their opinion solely on what’s said here. I doubt that’s the case for the vast majority of readers. Harvey please stop it, please!

  166. Disgusted

    I am looking at the following site:

    Gay Day Anaheim

    Can you please tell your objection to this? Because I don’t even see smoke, let alone a smoking gun?

    I looked, I saw, and it was not great. Talked about Juicy Fruit tidbits, ten places to have a “gay moment” in the park, etc. If Walt Disney were alive today, he would close the park before he would have allowed this type of sordid behavior sully his kingdom for children.

  167. Anonymous

    Harvey Milk said…
    “It was the yes on 8 op-ed that showed the lack of understanding of DPD on the gravity of the issue. I would like to here from the LGBT community if they think DPD should be let off the hook.”

    You act as if people only read this blog for information and base their opinion solely on what’s said here. I doubt that’s the case for the vast majority of readers. Harvey please stop it, please!

  168. Disgusted

    I am looking at the following site:

    Gay Day Anaheim

    Can you please tell your objection to this? Because I don’t even see smoke, let alone a smoking gun?

    I looked, I saw, and it was not great. Talked about Juicy Fruit tidbits, ten places to have a “gay moment” in the park, etc. If Walt Disney were alive today, he would close the park before he would have allowed this type of sordid behavior sully his kingdom for children.

  169. Disgusted

    DPD said: “I am looking at the following site:

    Gay Day Anaheim

    Can you please tell your objection to this? Because I don’t even see smoke, let alone a smoking gun?”

    I looked, I saw, and it was not great. Talked about Juicy Fruit tidbits, ten places to have a “gay moment” in the park, etc. If Walt Disney were alive today, he would close the park before he would have allowed this type of sordid behavior sully his kingdom for children.

  170. Disgusted

    DPD said: “I am looking at the following site:

    Gay Day Anaheim

    Can you please tell your objection to this? Because I don’t even see smoke, let alone a smoking gun?”

    I looked, I saw, and it was not great. Talked about Juicy Fruit tidbits, ten places to have a “gay moment” in the park, etc. If Walt Disney were alive today, he would close the park before he would have allowed this type of sordid behavior sully his kingdom for children.

  171. Disgusted

    DPD said: “I am looking at the following site:

    Gay Day Anaheim

    Can you please tell your objection to this? Because I don’t even see smoke, let alone a smoking gun?”

    I looked, I saw, and it was not great. Talked about Juicy Fruit tidbits, ten places to have a “gay moment” in the park, etc. If Walt Disney were alive today, he would close the park before he would have allowed this type of sordid behavior sully his kingdom for children.

  172. Disgusted

    DPD said: “I am looking at the following site:

    Gay Day Anaheim

    Can you please tell your objection to this? Because I don’t even see smoke, let alone a smoking gun?”

    I looked, I saw, and it was not great. Talked about Juicy Fruit tidbits, ten places to have a “gay moment” in the park, etc. If Walt Disney were alive today, he would close the park before he would have allowed this type of sordid behavior sully his kingdom for children.

  173. Dont get it

    The claim was, “open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children” My question is still, what evidence is there on the site that shows that it is aimed at promoting homosexuality and aimed at promoting it at our children? You may find it distasteful, but I don’t see a gay agenda to proselytize to children.

  174. Dont get it

    The claim was, “open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children” My question is still, what evidence is there on the site that shows that it is aimed at promoting homosexuality and aimed at promoting it at our children? You may find it distasteful, but I don’t see a gay agenda to proselytize to children.

  175. Dont get it

    The claim was, “open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children” My question is still, what evidence is there on the site that shows that it is aimed at promoting homosexuality and aimed at promoting it at our children? You may find it distasteful, but I don’t see a gay agenda to proselytize to children.

  176. Dont get it

    The claim was, “open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children” My question is still, what evidence is there on the site that shows that it is aimed at promoting homosexuality and aimed at promoting it at our children? You may find it distasteful, but I don’t see a gay agenda to proselytize to children.

  177. Don Shor

    “I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    Having loving parents, or people who act as parents, is the optimal way of raising children, regardless of the adult’s orientation, marital status, or even the specific relationship to the child.

  178. Don Shor

    “I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    Having loving parents, or people who act as parents, is the optimal way of raising children, regardless of the adult’s orientation, marital status, or even the specific relationship to the child.

  179. Don Shor

    “I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    Having loving parents, or people who act as parents, is the optimal way of raising children, regardless of the adult’s orientation, marital status, or even the specific relationship to the child.

  180. Don Shor

    “I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    Having loving parents, or people who act as parents, is the optimal way of raising children, regardless of the adult’s orientation, marital status, or even the specific relationship to the child.

  181. Anonymous

    “No, you will be mature when you step back and better understand that Europe is trying to destabilize this country in any way it can, by tearing down our traditional institutions. We are being destroyed from within.”

    So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??

    Sounds like a nutty conspiracy theory to me. You know why? because I’ve been hearing crap like that since the 1960’s.

    In the 1960’s we were supposed to be falling apart because of drugs and sexual liberation. It was supposed to be happening in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, and even now. Even during bad economic times, the U.S. has stood up pretty well.

    It seems like you’re suggesting maturity equals paranoid senility!

  182. Anonymous

    “No, you will be mature when you step back and better understand that Europe is trying to destabilize this country in any way it can, by tearing down our traditional institutions. We are being destroyed from within.”

    So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??

    Sounds like a nutty conspiracy theory to me. You know why? because I’ve been hearing crap like that since the 1960’s.

    In the 1960’s we were supposed to be falling apart because of drugs and sexual liberation. It was supposed to be happening in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, and even now. Even during bad economic times, the U.S. has stood up pretty well.

    It seems like you’re suggesting maturity equals paranoid senility!

  183. Anonymous

    “No, you will be mature when you step back and better understand that Europe is trying to destabilize this country in any way it can, by tearing down our traditional institutions. We are being destroyed from within.”

    So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??

    Sounds like a nutty conspiracy theory to me. You know why? because I’ve been hearing crap like that since the 1960’s.

    In the 1960’s we were supposed to be falling apart because of drugs and sexual liberation. It was supposed to be happening in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, and even now. Even during bad economic times, the U.S. has stood up pretty well.

    It seems like you’re suggesting maturity equals paranoid senility!

  184. Anonymous

    “No, you will be mature when you step back and better understand that Europe is trying to destabilize this country in any way it can, by tearing down our traditional institutions. We are being destroyed from within.”

    So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??

    Sounds like a nutty conspiracy theory to me. You know why? because I’ve been hearing crap like that since the 1960’s.

    In the 1960’s we were supposed to be falling apart because of drugs and sexual liberation. It was supposed to be happening in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, and even now. Even during bad economic times, the U.S. has stood up pretty well.

    It seems like you’re suggesting maturity equals paranoid senility!

  185. wdf

    “I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    Having loving parents, or people who act as parents, is the optimal way of raising children, regardless of the adult’s orientation, marital status, or even the specific relationship to the child.

    Well said. I don’t think heterosexual marriage suddenly confers on individuals the ability of being better parents.

    My personal experiences tell me that growing up with good adult role models who take a serious interest in a one’s maturing are likelier to inform how one raises the next generation. Without those role models, it’s still possible, but probably takes a little more effort.

  186. wdf

    “I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    Having loving parents, or people who act as parents, is the optimal way of raising children, regardless of the adult’s orientation, marital status, or even the specific relationship to the child.

    Well said. I don’t think heterosexual marriage suddenly confers on individuals the ability of being better parents.

    My personal experiences tell me that growing up with good adult role models who take a serious interest in a one’s maturing are likelier to inform how one raises the next generation. Without those role models, it’s still possible, but probably takes a little more effort.

  187. wdf

    “I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    Having loving parents, or people who act as parents, is the optimal way of raising children, regardless of the adult’s orientation, marital status, or even the specific relationship to the child.

    Well said. I don’t think heterosexual marriage suddenly confers on individuals the ability of being better parents.

    My personal experiences tell me that growing up with good adult role models who take a serious interest in a one’s maturing are likelier to inform how one raises the next generation. Without those role models, it’s still possible, but probably takes a little more effort.

  188. wdf

    “I want to promote traditional marriage as the optimum way of raising children.”

    Having loving parents, or people who act as parents, is the optimal way of raising children, regardless of the adult’s orientation, marital status, or even the specific relationship to the child.

    Well said. I don’t think heterosexual marriage suddenly confers on individuals the ability of being better parents.

    My personal experiences tell me that growing up with good adult role models who take a serious interest in a one’s maturing are likelier to inform how one raises the next generation. Without those role models, it’s still possible, but probably takes a little more effort.

  189. disgusted

    “The claim was, “open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children” My question is still, what evidence is there on the site that shows that it is aimed at promoting homosexuality and aimed at promoting it at our children? You may find it distasteful, but I don’t see a gay agenda to proselytize to children.”

    Disneyland was designed for children, it is where families bring their children, and now on Gay Days they cannot unless they want to risk their children witnessing things they shouldn’t. Sexual acts are openly taking place in Disneyland on Gay Days, and televised to boot. If you don’t think that is a form of indoctrination, then you are sadly mistaken. As is taking a first grade class to a “lesbian wedding”, or holding high school assemblies about homosexuality from only one point of view.

    “So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??”

    Yes, they are trying to destroy us from within, tearing down our traditional institutions at every turn. They would like nothing better than to see us become like them – legalizing drugs as in Sweden where families cannot go to the parks, looking the other way at inner turmoil amongst citizens against the Muslim religion as is going on in France, the upsurge of intolerance by looking the other way at the increase in skinheads as in Germany, etc. Why become like them? No thanks!

    “I don’t think heterosexual marriage suddenly confers on individuals the ability of being better parents.”

    Neither does homosexual marriage, which is a lot less stable a relationship statistically. Not only that, at least one of the parents of a gay marriage is not the biological parent of the child. Furthermore, gays create hostility by promoting/not condemning things like Gay Days at Disneyland. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is something they ought to “experiment with” as an OK thing to do. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking premarital or extramarital sex as something they ought to “experiment with” either.

    I see gay marriage as that slippery slope to Hollywoodizing the country, and that is not the sort of society I want for my children. It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with promoting lifestyles that have the best chance of producing well adjusted children who put sex in the proper perspective.

    Now overt sex is front and center, used to sell anything and everything. Including homosexual sex to sell the idea of legitimizing a lifestyle. If you want to talk to me about giving equal rights in a domestic partnership, I’m with you. Domestic partnerships include two friends living in the same house. But push gay marriage, and you’ve lost my support. Leave the institution of marriage alone – it is being downgraded and battered enough as it is.

  190. disgusted

    “The claim was, “open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children” My question is still, what evidence is there on the site that shows that it is aimed at promoting homosexuality and aimed at promoting it at our children? You may find it distasteful, but I don’t see a gay agenda to proselytize to children.”

    Disneyland was designed for children, it is where families bring their children, and now on Gay Days they cannot unless they want to risk their children witnessing things they shouldn’t. Sexual acts are openly taking place in Disneyland on Gay Days, and televised to boot. If you don’t think that is a form of indoctrination, then you are sadly mistaken. As is taking a first grade class to a “lesbian wedding”, or holding high school assemblies about homosexuality from only one point of view.

    “So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??”

    Yes, they are trying to destroy us from within, tearing down our traditional institutions at every turn. They would like nothing better than to see us become like them – legalizing drugs as in Sweden where families cannot go to the parks, looking the other way at inner turmoil amongst citizens against the Muslim religion as is going on in France, the upsurge of intolerance by looking the other way at the increase in skinheads as in Germany, etc. Why become like them? No thanks!

    “I don’t think heterosexual marriage suddenly confers on individuals the ability of being better parents.”

    Neither does homosexual marriage, which is a lot less stable a relationship statistically. Not only that, at least one of the parents of a gay marriage is not the biological parent of the child. Furthermore, gays create hostility by promoting/not condemning things like Gay Days at Disneyland. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is something they ought to “experiment with” as an OK thing to do. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking premarital or extramarital sex as something they ought to “experiment with” either.

    I see gay marriage as that slippery slope to Hollywoodizing the country, and that is not the sort of society I want for my children. It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with promoting lifestyles that have the best chance of producing well adjusted children who put sex in the proper perspective.

    Now overt sex is front and center, used to sell anything and everything. Including homosexual sex to sell the idea of legitimizing a lifestyle. If you want to talk to me about giving equal rights in a domestic partnership, I’m with you. Domestic partnerships include two friends living in the same house. But push gay marriage, and you’ve lost my support. Leave the institution of marriage alone – it is being downgraded and battered enough as it is.

  191. disgusted

    “The claim was, “open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children” My question is still, what evidence is there on the site that shows that it is aimed at promoting homosexuality and aimed at promoting it at our children? You may find it distasteful, but I don’t see a gay agenda to proselytize to children.”

    Disneyland was designed for children, it is where families bring their children, and now on Gay Days they cannot unless they want to risk their children witnessing things they shouldn’t. Sexual acts are openly taking place in Disneyland on Gay Days, and televised to boot. If you don’t think that is a form of indoctrination, then you are sadly mistaken. As is taking a first grade class to a “lesbian wedding”, or holding high school assemblies about homosexuality from only one point of view.

    “So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??”

    Yes, they are trying to destroy us from within, tearing down our traditional institutions at every turn. They would like nothing better than to see us become like them – legalizing drugs as in Sweden where families cannot go to the parks, looking the other way at inner turmoil amongst citizens against the Muslim religion as is going on in France, the upsurge of intolerance by looking the other way at the increase in skinheads as in Germany, etc. Why become like them? No thanks!

    “I don’t think heterosexual marriage suddenly confers on individuals the ability of being better parents.”

    Neither does homosexual marriage, which is a lot less stable a relationship statistically. Not only that, at least one of the parents of a gay marriage is not the biological parent of the child. Furthermore, gays create hostility by promoting/not condemning things like Gay Days at Disneyland. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is something they ought to “experiment with” as an OK thing to do. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking premarital or extramarital sex as something they ought to “experiment with” either.

    I see gay marriage as that slippery slope to Hollywoodizing the country, and that is not the sort of society I want for my children. It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with promoting lifestyles that have the best chance of producing well adjusted children who put sex in the proper perspective.

    Now overt sex is front and center, used to sell anything and everything. Including homosexual sex to sell the idea of legitimizing a lifestyle. If you want to talk to me about giving equal rights in a domestic partnership, I’m with you. Domestic partnerships include two friends living in the same house. But push gay marriage, and you’ve lost my support. Leave the institution of marriage alone – it is being downgraded and battered enough as it is.

  192. disgusted

    “The claim was, “open promotion of homosexuality aimed at our children” My question is still, what evidence is there on the site that shows that it is aimed at promoting homosexuality and aimed at promoting it at our children? You may find it distasteful, but I don’t see a gay agenda to proselytize to children.”

    Disneyland was designed for children, it is where families bring their children, and now on Gay Days they cannot unless they want to risk their children witnessing things they shouldn’t. Sexual acts are openly taking place in Disneyland on Gay Days, and televised to boot. If you don’t think that is a form of indoctrination, then you are sadly mistaken. As is taking a first grade class to a “lesbian wedding”, or holding high school assemblies about homosexuality from only one point of view.

    “So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??”

    Yes, they are trying to destroy us from within, tearing down our traditional institutions at every turn. They would like nothing better than to see us become like them – legalizing drugs as in Sweden where families cannot go to the parks, looking the other way at inner turmoil amongst citizens against the Muslim religion as is going on in France, the upsurge of intolerance by looking the other way at the increase in skinheads as in Germany, etc. Why become like them? No thanks!

    “I don’t think heterosexual marriage suddenly confers on individuals the ability of being better parents.”

    Neither does homosexual marriage, which is a lot less stable a relationship statistically. Not only that, at least one of the parents of a gay marriage is not the biological parent of the child. Furthermore, gays create hostility by promoting/not condemning things like Gay Days at Disneyland. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is something they ought to “experiment with” as an OK thing to do. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking premarital or extramarital sex as something they ought to “experiment with” either.

    I see gay marriage as that slippery slope to Hollywoodizing the country, and that is not the sort of society I want for my children. It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with promoting lifestyles that have the best chance of producing well adjusted children who put sex in the proper perspective.

    Now overt sex is front and center, used to sell anything and everything. Including homosexual sex to sell the idea of legitimizing a lifestyle. If you want to talk to me about giving equal rights in a domestic partnership, I’m with you. Domestic partnerships include two friends living in the same house. But push gay marriage, and you’ve lost my support. Leave the institution of marriage alone – it is being downgraded and battered enough as it is.

  193. Anonymous

    “I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is something they ought to “experiment with” as an OK thing to do. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking premarital or extramarital sex as something they ought to “experiment with” either.”

    What would you do if your grown child came to you and said he/she was gay?

    I guess gay couples can never have acceptable sex to you, now, because they can’t get married? Any sex now would be premarital, sort of.

  194. Anonymous

    “I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is something they ought to “experiment with” as an OK thing to do. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking premarital or extramarital sex as something they ought to “experiment with” either.”

    What would you do if your grown child came to you and said he/she was gay?

    I guess gay couples can never have acceptable sex to you, now, because they can’t get married? Any sex now would be premarital, sort of.

  195. Anonymous

    “I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is something they ought to “experiment with” as an OK thing to do. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking premarital or extramarital sex as something they ought to “experiment with” either.”

    What would you do if your grown child came to you and said he/she was gay?

    I guess gay couples can never have acceptable sex to you, now, because they can’t get married? Any sex now would be premarital, sort of.

  196. Anonymous

    “I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking homosexuality is something they ought to “experiment with” as an OK thing to do. I don’t want my child indoctrinated into thinking premarital or extramarital sex as something they ought to “experiment with” either.”

    What would you do if your grown child came to you and said he/she was gay?

    I guess gay couples can never have acceptable sex to you, now, because they can’t get married? Any sex now would be premarital, sort of.

  197. Prop 8 opponents listen up...

    I want you to listen.
    I am not posting to argue for proposition 8. I know how politically charged gay marriage is, and how many on both sides will not budge an inch.

    Now, I want Shelly Bailes and Ellen Pontac to read this too.

    I voted in favor of Proposition 8, but I did not win by huge amounts.

    That being said, I am a supporter of Civil Unions. I think it is a reasonable compromise.

    So, just think for a moment. If there was a civil unions ballot measure instead of opposition to gay marriage, I would have given my vote.

    I also believe there are other proposition 8 supporters who agree with civil unions too.

    So, prop 8 opponents and supporters might want to think about that. We can come together. We can work out a compromise.

    If there are a handful of 8 supporters who support civil unions, then it more than likely would be enough to turn the tide and get the majority to support
    civil unions.

    We need to be able to compromise. Name calling and blasting other people as “fags”, “bigots” or what have you achieves nothing. We are all people here, and we disagree on political issues. We disagree with what is “good” what is “caring” what is “bigoted” and what is “intolerant”

    We will never agree, but we are all still human beings, no matter which way you voted for 8, McCain/Obama, or Bush/Kerry, Yin/Yang, HomerSimpson/NedFlanders.

  198. Prop 8 opponents listen up...

    I want you to listen.
    I am not posting to argue for proposition 8. I know how politically charged gay marriage is, and how many on both sides will not budge an inch.

    Now, I want Shelly Bailes and Ellen Pontac to read this too.

    I voted in favor of Proposition 8, but I did not win by huge amounts.

    That being said, I am a supporter of Civil Unions. I think it is a reasonable compromise.

    So, just think for a moment. If there was a civil unions ballot measure instead of opposition to gay marriage, I would have given my vote.

    I also believe there are other proposition 8 supporters who agree with civil unions too.

    So, prop 8 opponents and supporters might want to think about that. We can come together. We can work out a compromise.

    If there are a handful of 8 supporters who support civil unions, then it more than likely would be enough to turn the tide and get the majority to support
    civil unions.

    We need to be able to compromise. Name calling and blasting other people as “fags”, “bigots” or what have you achieves nothing. We are all people here, and we disagree on political issues. We disagree with what is “good” what is “caring” what is “bigoted” and what is “intolerant”

    We will never agree, but we are all still human beings, no matter which way you voted for 8, McCain/Obama, or Bush/Kerry, Yin/Yang, HomerSimpson/NedFlanders.

  199. Prop 8 opponents listen up...

    I want you to listen.
    I am not posting to argue for proposition 8. I know how politically charged gay marriage is, and how many on both sides will not budge an inch.

    Now, I want Shelly Bailes and Ellen Pontac to read this too.

    I voted in favor of Proposition 8, but I did not win by huge amounts.

    That being said, I am a supporter of Civil Unions. I think it is a reasonable compromise.

    So, just think for a moment. If there was a civil unions ballot measure instead of opposition to gay marriage, I would have given my vote.

    I also believe there are other proposition 8 supporters who agree with civil unions too.

    So, prop 8 opponents and supporters might want to think about that. We can come together. We can work out a compromise.

    If there are a handful of 8 supporters who support civil unions, then it more than likely would be enough to turn the tide and get the majority to support
    civil unions.

    We need to be able to compromise. Name calling and blasting other people as “fags”, “bigots” or what have you achieves nothing. We are all people here, and we disagree on political issues. We disagree with what is “good” what is “caring” what is “bigoted” and what is “intolerant”

    We will never agree, but we are all still human beings, no matter which way you voted for 8, McCain/Obama, or Bush/Kerry, Yin/Yang, HomerSimpson/NedFlanders.

  200. Prop 8 opponents listen up...

    I want you to listen.
    I am not posting to argue for proposition 8. I know how politically charged gay marriage is, and how many on both sides will not budge an inch.

    Now, I want Shelly Bailes and Ellen Pontac to read this too.

    I voted in favor of Proposition 8, but I did not win by huge amounts.

    That being said, I am a supporter of Civil Unions. I think it is a reasonable compromise.

    So, just think for a moment. If there was a civil unions ballot measure instead of opposition to gay marriage, I would have given my vote.

    I also believe there are other proposition 8 supporters who agree with civil unions too.

    So, prop 8 opponents and supporters might want to think about that. We can come together. We can work out a compromise.

    If there are a handful of 8 supporters who support civil unions, then it more than likely would be enough to turn the tide and get the majority to support
    civil unions.

    We need to be able to compromise. Name calling and blasting other people as “fags”, “bigots” or what have you achieves nothing. We are all people here, and we disagree on political issues. We disagree with what is “good” what is “caring” what is “bigoted” and what is “intolerant”

    We will never agree, but we are all still human beings, no matter which way you voted for 8, McCain/Obama, or Bush/Kerry, Yin/Yang, HomerSimpson/NedFlanders.

  201. Prop 8 opponents listen up...

    I want you to listen.
    I am not posting to argue for proposition 8. I know how politically charged gay marriage is, and how many on both sides will not budge an inch.

    Now, I want Shelly Bailes and Ellen Pontac to read this too.

    I voted in favor of Proposition 8, but I did not win by huge amounts.

    That being said, I am a supporter of Civil Unions. I think it is a reasonable compromise.

    So, just think for a moment. If there was a civil unions ballot measure instead of opposition to gay marriage, I would have given my vote.

    I also believe there are other proposition 8 supporters who agree with civil unions too.

    So, prop 8 opponents and supporters might want to think about that. We can come together. We can work out a compromise.

    If there are a handful of 8 supporters who support civil unions, then it more than likely would be enough to turn the tide and get the majority to support
    civil unions.

    We need to be able to compromise. Name calling and blasting other people as “fags”, “bigots” or what have you achieves nothing. We are all people here, and we disagree on political issues. We disagree with what is “good” what is “caring” what is “bigoted” and what is “intolerant”

    We will never agree, but we are all still human beings, no matter which way you voted for 8, McCain/Obama, or Bush/Kerry, Yin/Yang, HomerSimpson/NedFlanders.

  202. chuck

    “That being said, I am a supporter of Civil Unions. I think it is a reasonable compromise.”

    What’s the difference between marriage and civil union? Do you want marriage to be exclusively religious and civil unions to be exclusively civil?

    Or is this a separate but equal issue you’re creating?

  203. chuck

    “That being said, I am a supporter of Civil Unions. I think it is a reasonable compromise.”

    What’s the difference between marriage and civil union? Do you want marriage to be exclusively religious and civil unions to be exclusively civil?

    Or is this a separate but equal issue you’re creating?

  204. chuck

    “That being said, I am a supporter of Civil Unions. I think it is a reasonable compromise.”

    What’s the difference between marriage and civil union? Do you want marriage to be exclusively religious and civil unions to be exclusively civil?

    Or is this a separate but equal issue you’re creating?

  205. chuck

    “That being said, I am a supporter of Civil Unions. I think it is a reasonable compromise.”

    What’s the difference between marriage and civil union? Do you want marriage to be exclusively religious and civil unions to be exclusively civil?

    Or is this a separate but equal issue you’re creating?

  206. Anonymous

    Give this “separate but equal” a rest! It’s meaningless in this context as Prop 8 “separates” marriage status and civil union status as distinguishable descriptive phrases. There is no “separation” as in Brown vs. Board of Education.

  207. Anonymous

    Give this “separate but equal” a rest! It’s meaningless in this context as Prop 8 “separates” marriage status and civil union status as distinguishable descriptive phrases. There is no “separation” as in Brown vs. Board of Education.

  208. Anonymous

    Give this “separate but equal” a rest! It’s meaningless in this context as Prop 8 “separates” marriage status and civil union status as distinguishable descriptive phrases. There is no “separation” as in Brown vs. Board of Education.

  209. Anonymous

    Give this “separate but equal” a rest! It’s meaningless in this context as Prop 8 “separates” marriage status and civil union status as distinguishable descriptive phrases. There is no “separation” as in Brown vs. Board of Education.

  210. Harvey Milk

    Shelly and Ellen have never posted on this blog and I doubt they would read it either. My guess is that if they did they would have written it off when the Vanguard posted its pro 8 editorial. As for you wanting them to hear something I doubt they could care less about your nuanced hate speech.

  211. Harvey Milk

    Shelly and Ellen have never posted on this blog and I doubt they would read it either. My guess is that if they did they would have written it off when the Vanguard posted its pro 8 editorial. As for you wanting them to hear something I doubt they could care less about your nuanced hate speech.

  212. Harvey Milk

    Shelly and Ellen have never posted on this blog and I doubt they would read it either. My guess is that if they did they would have written it off when the Vanguard posted its pro 8 editorial. As for you wanting them to hear something I doubt they could care less about your nuanced hate speech.

  213. Harvey Milk

    Shelly and Ellen have never posted on this blog and I doubt they would read it either. My guess is that if they did they would have written it off when the Vanguard posted its pro 8 editorial. As for you wanting them to hear something I doubt they could care less about your nuanced hate speech.

  214. chuck

    “Give this “separate but equal” a rest! It’s meaningless in this context as Prop 8 “separates” marriage status and civil union status as distinguishable descriptive phrases. There is no “separation” as in Brown vs. Board of Education.”

    That’s just you saying it’s so with no further explanation. Certainly doesn’t answer the question for me.

    All I see when I read about this convoluted discussion of separation of marriage and civil union is a fig leaf.

  215. chuck

    “Give this “separate but equal” a rest! It’s meaningless in this context as Prop 8 “separates” marriage status and civil union status as distinguishable descriptive phrases. There is no “separation” as in Brown vs. Board of Education.”

    That’s just you saying it’s so with no further explanation. Certainly doesn’t answer the question for me.

    All I see when I read about this convoluted discussion of separation of marriage and civil union is a fig leaf.

  216. chuck

    “Give this “separate but equal” a rest! It’s meaningless in this context as Prop 8 “separates” marriage status and civil union status as distinguishable descriptive phrases. There is no “separation” as in Brown vs. Board of Education.”

    That’s just you saying it’s so with no further explanation. Certainly doesn’t answer the question for me.

    All I see when I read about this convoluted discussion of separation of marriage and civil union is a fig leaf.

  217. chuck

    “Give this “separate but equal” a rest! It’s meaningless in this context as Prop 8 “separates” marriage status and civil union status as distinguishable descriptive phrases. There is no “separation” as in Brown vs. Board of Education.”

    That’s just you saying it’s so with no further explanation. Certainly doesn’t answer the question for me.

    All I see when I read about this convoluted discussion of separation of marriage and civil union is a fig leaf.

  218. Anonymous

    “So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??”

    Yes, they are trying to destroy us from within, tearing down our traditional institutions at every turn. They would like nothing better than to see us become like them – legalizing drugs as in Sweden where families cannot go to the parks, looking the other way at inner turmoil amongst citizens against the Muslim religion as is going on in France, the upsurge of intolerance by looking the other way at the increase in skinheads as in Germany, etc. Why become like them? No thanks!

    Wow! This sounds like some of the language that Osama bin Laden and fellow radicals use in reference to the U.S.! That we are trying to tear down their traditional institutions, that we would like nothing better than to see them become like us, that we are destroying them from within…

    All of it is crazytalk.

  219. Anonymous

    “So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??”

    Yes, they are trying to destroy us from within, tearing down our traditional institutions at every turn. They would like nothing better than to see us become like them – legalizing drugs as in Sweden where families cannot go to the parks, looking the other way at inner turmoil amongst citizens against the Muslim religion as is going on in France, the upsurge of intolerance by looking the other way at the increase in skinheads as in Germany, etc. Why become like them? No thanks!

    Wow! This sounds like some of the language that Osama bin Laden and fellow radicals use in reference to the U.S.! That we are trying to tear down their traditional institutions, that we would like nothing better than to see them become like us, that we are destroying them from within…

    All of it is crazytalk.

  220. Anonymous

    “So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??”

    Yes, they are trying to destroy us from within, tearing down our traditional institutions at every turn. They would like nothing better than to see us become like them – legalizing drugs as in Sweden where families cannot go to the parks, looking the other way at inner turmoil amongst citizens against the Muslim religion as is going on in France, the upsurge of intolerance by looking the other way at the increase in skinheads as in Germany, etc. Why become like them? No thanks!

    Wow! This sounds like some of the language that Osama bin Laden and fellow radicals use in reference to the U.S.! That we are trying to tear down their traditional institutions, that we would like nothing better than to see them become like us, that we are destroying them from within…

    All of it is crazytalk.

  221. Anonymous

    “So Europe has it in for us?!? And somehow they are doing everything they can to have us promote same-sex marriage??”

    Yes, they are trying to destroy us from within, tearing down our traditional institutions at every turn. They would like nothing better than to see us become like them – legalizing drugs as in Sweden where families cannot go to the parks, looking the other way at inner turmoil amongst citizens against the Muslim religion as is going on in France, the upsurge of intolerance by looking the other way at the increase in skinheads as in Germany, etc. Why become like them? No thanks!

    Wow! This sounds like some of the language that Osama bin Laden and fellow radicals use in reference to the U.S.! That we are trying to tear down their traditional institutions, that we would like nothing better than to see them become like us, that we are destroying them from within…

    All of it is crazytalk.

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