SNOWPIERCER has arrived – in our theaters and on our border

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immigration-borderBy Tia Will

For those of you who have not seen the movie, here is a brief synopsis from Rotten Tomatoes: “A failed global-warming experiment kills off most life on the planet. The final survivors board the SNOWPIERCER, a train that travels around the globe via a perpetual-motion engine.”

The population of the train is strictly segregated into different cars by class with the occupants of the front enjoying immense wealth and privilege while those in the back receive barely enough to sustain life. Of interest are the means by which this strict segregation is justified and maintained.

It is my opinion that we have a similar situation in the world today and a very small part of it has arrived on our southern border. We live in a limited space called earth rather than Snowpiercer. Our resources are finite and our population is growing.

We are segregated into different cars that we call countries. These countries have variable degrees of wealth. In the front of this train are the western democracies as well as a few smaller very wealthy states such as Japan and the Arab Emirates that have been successful with slightly different strategies from the West and some newcomers such as China which have amassed wealth using still different means. In the back of the train are what we call third world countries.

Within each of these societies are those of greater and those of lesser wealth. Some have chosen to treat their population more equitably, some not so much so. However, there are those pesky people at the back of the train who just can’t seem to get their act together to overcome ruthless exploitation by the “haves.”

This exploitation has sometimes taken the form of military land grabs, sometimes political or religious take-overs with exploitation or elimination of the minority group, and sometimes by financial exploitation.

We have experienced two of these in the southern United States. First we have the military annexation of the southern United States including Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and parts of California. Then we have the financial co-opting of many workers from Mexico and areas further south for labor so inexpensive that only those who are fleeing still more brutal conditions will accept it.

What is the US position on the treatment of refugees? Here is an excerpt from the Department of State: Appendix E Overview of US Refuge Policy:

“The United States works with other governments and international and nongovernmental organizations to protect refugees, internally displaced persons, and conflict victims, and strives to ensure that survival needs for food, health care, and shelter are met. The United States has been instrumental in mobilizing a community of nations to work through these organizations to alleviate the misery and suffering of refugees worldwide.“

From this, it would appear clear that we are, by unilaterally making the decision to repatriate the children on our border without due process, clearly abridging our own policy to “work with other governments, international and non governmental organization to protect….”

Now one may assert that these children are not refugees. But how do we know these children are not refugees without a due process investigation of each? And how can a penniless 14 year-old obtain the legal assistance needed for this due process?

Seemingly safe within our First Class car we, as a people, have been content to unquestioningly accept our luxuries as due us by our position as inhabitants of this country. Many of us have achieved our position by birth to “first class” parents, not by any effort of our own. We tsk over pictures of refugees fleeing distant wars and famines, are critical of those who will not provide aid, and ignore or condemn the same needs presenting on our own border.

My question is: Is this really the best that we can do? Shouldn’t we apply our own principles of due process and protection of refugees? Can we not as individuals, private groups, and as a nation act with even a little more compassion toward those who are fleeing danger at home? Those facing life-threatening circumstances in Coach – into which they were born and now seek, not to live off our wealth but to work for a place in our car, rather than face death at the hands of gangs, or militia, or poor nutrition or medical care – are deserving of a better fate.

What outcry do we hear? Do we hear calls for the Public Health Service or Doctors without Borders to help provide medical care for these children? Or for Bill and Melinda Gates, or Brad and Angelina, or George Soros or other billionaires to help set up assistance?

If so, I am not hearing about it. What I hear are cries to throw them back out of First Class into the back, “where they belong.” I hear cries to bring in the National Guard to shore up the border.

And what is the rationale for these cries? What I hear most often is that “we” cannot afford it. But my answer is that we can and should. The cost would be for the wealthiest of us to do three things.

1)      Make the realization that human life is more important than our toys and trips (yes, mine to Hawaii included).

2)      We would have to decide to promote the sharing of our wealth with those less fortunate than ourselves and as policy, not just a suggestion. We have already seen how far private charity falls short in alleviating suffering.

3)      We would have to agree to put our stated principles into action instead of merely paying lip service to them at convenient moments such as the 4th of July.

If the wealthiest among us were to lead the way on establishing the more egalitarian society that we claim to be, others would over time, recognizing that their way of life was not being threatened, accept this new precept that places human life above material wealth.

I am not actually arguing for anything radical. I believe in the Christian and American principles of charity toward others and a helping hand for the less fortunate. I believe in basic human rights. I believe these rights apply to all humans regardless of location of birth or national borders.

I believe that we have the ability to live up to these principles and that what is lacking at this point is our awareness and willingness to do so. I believe that we will not be the country that we claim to be, but which we only aspire to be, until we stop turning our backs on the helpless on our borders and welcome them into our society until which time they can safely be returned to their own.

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About The Author

David Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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174 thoughts on “SNOWPIERCER has arrived – in our theaters and on our border”

  1. South of Davis

    Tia wrote:

    > Within each of these societies are those of greater and those of lesser wealth.
    > Some have chosen to treat their population more equitably, some not so much
    > so. However, there are those pesky people at the back of the train who just
    > can’t seem to get their act together to overcome ruthless exploitation by the “haves”.

    Here in America (just like in different “train cars” and “countries”) we also have homes with greater and lesser wealth.

    Some people feel that we should teach people how to put bad people in jail (like a dad pimping out his daughter or beating his sons or crooked Mexican cop stealing more than a mobster) clean up their dirty vermin infested homes (cleaning does not cost a lot of money yet many here and in Mexico literally sleep in trash heaps) and learn a skill where the poor family (or people in a poor country) can make money. Many call these people the “teach them to fish crowd”.

    Other people feel we should just let bad people do horrible things in homes and countries and tell those that want to leave that we don’t care about the rule of law. Then build new clean housing for refugees of other countries and bad homes who can’t be bothered to clean up their own countries and homes and give them (aka take from the shrinking population of taxpayers) cash, education and health care. Many call these people the “give the man an EBT card to buy fish” crowd.

  2. South of Davis

    Tia wrote:

    > Within each of these societies are those of greater and those of lesser wealth.
    > Some have chosen to treat their population more equitably, some not so much
    > so. However, there are those pesky people at the back of the train who just
    > can’t seem to get their act together to overcome ruthless exploitation by the “haves”.

    Here in America (just like in different “train cars” and “countries”) we also have homes with greater and lesser wealth.

    Some people feel that we should teach people how to put bad people in jail (like a dad pimping out his daughter or beating his sons or crooked Mexican cop stealing more than a mobster) clean up their dirty vermin infested homes (cleaning does not cost a lot of money yet many here and in Mexico literally sleep in trash heaps) and learn a skill where the poor family (or people in a poor country) can make money. Many call these people the “teach them to fish crowd”.

    Other people feel we should just let bad people do horrible things in homes and countries and tell those that want to leave that we don’t care about the rule of law. Then build new clean housing for refugees of other countries and bad homes who can’t be bothered to clean up their own countries and homes and give them (aka take from the shrinking population of taxpayers) cash, education and health care. Many call these people the “give the man an EBT card to buy fish” crowd.

  3. Tia Will

    SouthofDavis

    While it is true that I have, in all of the countries that I have visited ( Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Turkey, Haiti
    and the United States) seen people sleeping under whatever they were able to salvage to stay warm ( what you are describing as “a pile of trash”) I have never seen anyone who did not have a mental illness doing that by choice.

    Here is the critical difference. You seem to believe that people live in firth because that is their preference. What I see is people living in” filth “because it is the best that they can do.

    What your argument denies is what I have seen again and again. Women maintaining their one or two room homes, often constructed from whatever building materials they can scrounge up from other people’s refuse and cobble together as clean as they possibly can by constant sweeping and scouring often with dry cloths since their access to clean water is limited. As for “vermin” any homeowner in Davis can tell you that it is very hard to keep out the various local vermin without the help of an exterminator or at least rodent poison. Now imagine that task without benefit of mouse trap, poison or professional. On one of my daughter’s outreach trips, a rat dropped from the rafters onto the netting of her bed. I naively asked her if she had told the owner. Her response was obvious.
    “No, mom, what was he going to do ? Call the exterminator ? ” This was a family of five living in two rooms with no phone, no electricity, outside plumbing and with both parents working, the man outside the home, the woman inside constantly.

    Unless one has gone oneself and seen, the circumstances that some of these people are born into and live with day to day are unfathomable to those of us who have never seen a scrap of soap or a sponge as a luxury beyond their means.

    1. South of Davis

      Tia wrote:

      > While it is true that I have, in all of the countries that I have visited
      > ( Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Turkey, Haiti and the United States)
      > seen people sleeping under whatever they were able to salvage to stay
      > warm ( what you are describing as “a pile of trash”) I have never seen
      > anyone who did not have a mental illness doing that by choice.

      I don’t know how you define “mental illness” but here in Davis you can find MANY kids with high IQs (and good GPAs) sleeping in roach infested rooms surrounded by pizza boxes and red cups just feet away from mold infested bathrooms that have NEVER had ANY cleaning since they moved in. I have spent a lot of time doing volunteer work in Mexico and it is a challenge to get many of the poor kids to actually put stuff in the trash (vs. just dropping it on the ground). I have never been to Haiti (or Turkey), but after the big earthquake I talked with a MD friend who went down with “Doctors without Borders” and he said that the “culture” is different down there where most (but not all) don’t seem interested in getting trash (including medical waste) in to trash containers (the volunteers brought tons of trash bags) if you Google “Haitian refugee camp trash” you get MILLIONS of hits and can spend the rest of the day looking at photos like this one:
      http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/01/40/25/394588/3/628×471.jpg

      > Here is the critical difference. You seem to believe that people live
      > in firth because that is their preference. What I see is people living
      > in” filth “because it is the best that they can do.

      Do you really think that the UCD fraternity bathrooms are filthy because it is the “best they can do”? If I throw a candy wrapper on a street in Davis a neighbor will probably pick it up within the hour, while a few miles East of us in Oak Park the wrapper will probably sit for months (mixed in with lots of other trash that does not get picked up), is there something I don’t know about that prevents the residents of Oak Park from picking up trash (or pulling weeds and/or throwing down $2 of grass seed)? When I was younger I spent a lot of time camping (and surfing) in Mexico. It is common for a local (Mexican National) family to have a picnic with a piñata and leave the remnants of the piñata along with all the candy wrappers and their picnic trash. Do you think that Mexican citizens are not “able” to pick up this trash (or are they just hoping that the gringos will pick up their trash and bag it up wit their trash to take back to the US)?

      > On one of my daughter’s outreach trips, a rat dropped from the rafters onto
      > the netting of her bed. I naively asked her if she had told the owner. Her
      > response was obvious. “No, mom, what was he going to do ? Call the exterminator ? ”

      Most (but not all) of us here in Davis know that if we walk out in our back yard with a loaf of bread and start tossing bread on the ground we will soon have a lot of birds back yard. Most of us also know that if we leave food out in our kitchen it will attract bugs. Most (but not all) of the worlds poor are not really clear that leaving food out attracts bugs and other animals (or know that putting mud and/or steel wool in cracks will keep rodents out of their “homes”)

      > Unless one has gone oneself and seen, the circumstances that some of these
      > people are born into and live with day to day are unfathomable to those of us
      > who have never seen a scrap of soap or a sponge as a luxury beyond their means.

      I’ve not only seen it I’ve been on my hands and knees helping them clean and pack mud and/or cement in to cracks that will try and bugs and rats out.

      In my life it is sad to see America getting more and more like Mexico where the government (both the blue team and the red team) is getting more and more corrupt and primarily concerned with helping the rich and powerful not the poor or middle class (both red and blue team people) making it harder and harder for anyone to get a decent job (where the rich and connected pay them a decent wage) or start a business (that may compete with and cut the income of the rich and connected). The article below talks about the problems Greece has and how they are coming to America. I’m not saying that Tia wants more poor people to come to America so she has more “customers” and makes more money, but many of the people that are getting rich helping the “poor” do want more “customers” since with more people to “help” they get promoted and make more and can hire more friends and relatives to get on the “gravy train” (until they retire with their gold plated pensions and Cadillac health plans).

      http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/07/07/regulations-class-wealth-income-inequality-opportunity-reynolds-column/12266651/

      The bottom line is if I had a dirty messy home in Oak Park with bad mean messy parents and the Davis cops did not enforce the law it would be a lot easier to “cross the border” in to Davis with my sister and break a window to illegally (aka without proper documentation) move in to Tia’s clean and nice guest room and get free food from her clean and nice kitchen and go to the nice clean Davis Schools (knowing Davis will just vote for another parcel tax to pay for me and all my friends that will come when I let them know that you will not be sent back when you break in to a Davis home and get free place to live, free food and a free education)…

      1. Tia Will

        SouthofDavis

        “Most (but not all) of the worlds poor are not really clear that leaving food out attracts bugs and other animals (or know that putting mud and/or steel wool in cracks will keep rodents out of their “homes”)”

        I would truly like to know how you have decided that “most” of the world’s poor are not really
        clear…..”
        What I have observed in my travel is that there is frequently a different tempo between discarding and clean up than we utilize here. An example from Haiti where the tradition in some houses is exactly as you said, to discard used items on the floor instead of into a trash receptacle. This does not make them any more or less dirty, because entirety of the floor is meticulously swept several times a day. It is not that refuse is allowed to accumulate, it is just cleared up on a schedule instead of piece meal. Also since there is no organized trash pickup in many communities, it is piled outside for the evening burn. Just because their strategy for clean up is different from ours does not mean that they do not have an effective strategy.

        1. D.D.

          Maybe I’m part Haitiin and don’t know it. I like that way of doing things. My toddlers would have loved to help me sweep once an hour (they had small broms and loved them!) rather than have Mommy go around picking stuf up constantly.
          This reminds me of Americans in movie theaters, the one place that many throw their trash on the sticky floor.

      2. tribeUSA

        South of Davis–re: “In my life it is sad to see America getting more and more like Mexico where the government (both the blue team and the red team) is getting more and more corrupt and primarily concerned with helping the rich and powerful not the poor or middle class (both red and blue team people) making it harder and harder for anyone to get a decent job (where the rich and connected pay them a decent wage) or start a business (that may compete with and cut the income of the rich and connected).”
        –spot on! I’m hoping that more americans are waking up to these realities and force changes to our political system to stem/reverse these trends (must start with huge reforms in campaign finance and lobbying; as I see it having election campaigns mainly publicly funded).

        Re: cleanliness issues–among students, particularly young men, this is due mainly to carelessness. Among poor non-student adults in USA and other countries, I would attribute lack of cleaning of living quarters to demoralization; also secondarily to poor physical and mental/emotional health among many.

        1. Tia Will

          tribeUSA

          ‘changes to our political system to stem/reverse these trends (must start with huge reforms in campaign finance and lobbying; as I see it having election campaigns mainly publicly funded).”

          Now here is a definite point of agreement.

          1. South of Davis

            Tia wrote:

            > Now here is a definite point of agreement.

            I’m wondering if Tia will support my “if you take money from someone you don’t get to vote on anything that will give them money” simple campaign finance reform idea (that will never see the light of day).

            I’m fine if defense contractors (corporations that are people) want to give millions to people they like I just want to make sure those people can’t vote to give them a big fat contract down the road, same with unions, I’m fine if they give millions (or go door to door) in support of people they like. I just want to make sure those people have to recuse themselves when it comes time to vote for union pay and benefit raises…

  4. Tia Will

    SouthofDavis

    While it is true that I have, in all of the countries that I have visited ( Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Turkey, Haiti
    and the United States) seen people sleeping under whatever they were able to salvage to stay warm ( what you are describing as “a pile of trash”) I have never seen anyone who did not have a mental illness doing that by choice.

    Here is the critical difference. You seem to believe that people live in firth because that is their preference. What I see is people living in” filth “because it is the best that they can do.

    What your argument denies is what I have seen again and again. Women maintaining their one or two room homes, often constructed from whatever building materials they can scrounge up from other people’s refuse and cobble together as clean as they possibly can by constant sweeping and scouring often with dry cloths since their access to clean water is limited. As for “vermin” any homeowner in Davis can tell you that it is very hard to keep out the various local vermin without the help of an exterminator or at least rodent poison. Now imagine that task without benefit of mouse trap, poison or professional. On one of my daughter’s outreach trips, a rat dropped from the rafters onto the netting of her bed. I naively asked her if she had told the owner. Her response was obvious.
    “No, mom, what was he going to do ? Call the exterminator ? ” This was a family of five living in two rooms with no phone, no electricity, outside plumbing and with both parents working, the man outside the home, the woman inside constantly.

    Unless one has gone oneself and seen, the circumstances that some of these people are born into and live with day to day are unfathomable to those of us who have never seen a scrap of soap or a sponge as a luxury beyond their means.

    1. South of Davis

      Tia wrote:

      > While it is true that I have, in all of the countries that I have visited
      > ( Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Turkey, Haiti and the United States)
      > seen people sleeping under whatever they were able to salvage to stay
      > warm ( what you are describing as “a pile of trash”) I have never seen
      > anyone who did not have a mental illness doing that by choice.

      I don’t know how you define “mental illness” but here in Davis you can find MANY kids with high IQs (and good GPAs) sleeping in roach infested rooms surrounded by pizza boxes and red cups just feet away from mold infested bathrooms that have NEVER had ANY cleaning since they moved in. I have spent a lot of time doing volunteer work in Mexico and it is a challenge to get many of the poor kids to actually put stuff in the trash (vs. just dropping it on the ground). I have never been to Haiti (or Turkey), but after the big earthquake I talked with a MD friend who went down with “Doctors without Borders” and he said that the “culture” is different down there where most (but not all) don’t seem interested in getting trash (including medical waste) in to trash containers (the volunteers brought tons of trash bags) if you Google “Haitian refugee camp trash” you get MILLIONS of hits and can spend the rest of the day looking at photos like this one:
      http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/01/40/25/394588/3/628×471.jpg

      > Here is the critical difference. You seem to believe that people live
      > in firth because that is their preference. What I see is people living
      > in” filth “because it is the best that they can do.

      Do you really think that the UCD fraternity bathrooms are filthy because it is the “best they can do”? If I throw a candy wrapper on a street in Davis a neighbor will probably pick it up within the hour, while a few miles East of us in Oak Park the wrapper will probably sit for months (mixed in with lots of other trash that does not get picked up), is there something I don’t know about that prevents the residents of Oak Park from picking up trash (or pulling weeds and/or throwing down $2 of grass seed)? When I was younger I spent a lot of time camping (and surfing) in Mexico. It is common for a local (Mexican National) family to have a picnic with a piñata and leave the remnants of the piñata along with all the candy wrappers and their picnic trash. Do you think that Mexican citizens are not “able” to pick up this trash (or are they just hoping that the gringos will pick up their trash and bag it up wit their trash to take back to the US)?

      > On one of my daughter’s outreach trips, a rat dropped from the rafters onto
      > the netting of her bed. I naively asked her if she had told the owner. Her
      > response was obvious. “No, mom, what was he going to do ? Call the exterminator ? ”

      Most (but not all) of us here in Davis know that if we walk out in our back yard with a loaf of bread and start tossing bread on the ground we will soon have a lot of birds back yard. Most of us also know that if we leave food out in our kitchen it will attract bugs. Most (but not all) of the worlds poor are not really clear that leaving food out attracts bugs and other animals (or know that putting mud and/or steel wool in cracks will keep rodents out of their “homes”)

      > Unless one has gone oneself and seen, the circumstances that some of these
      > people are born into and live with day to day are unfathomable to those of us
      > who have never seen a scrap of soap or a sponge as a luxury beyond their means.

      I’ve not only seen it I’ve been on my hands and knees helping them clean and pack mud and/or cement in to cracks that will try and bugs and rats out.

      In my life it is sad to see America getting more and more like Mexico where the government (both the blue team and the red team) is getting more and more corrupt and primarily concerned with helping the rich and powerful not the poor or middle class (both red and blue team people) making it harder and harder for anyone to get a decent job (where the rich and connected pay them a decent wage) or start a business (that may compete with and cut the income of the rich and connected). The article below talks about the problems Greece has and how they are coming to America. I’m not saying that Tia wants more poor people to come to America so she has more “customers” and makes more money, but many of the people that are getting rich helping the “poor” do want more “customers” since with more people to “help” they get promoted and make more and can hire more friends and relatives to get on the “gravy train” (until they retire with their gold plated pensions and Cadillac health plans).

      http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/07/07/regulations-class-wealth-income-inequality-opportunity-reynolds-column/12266651/

      The bottom line is if I had a dirty messy home in Oak Park with bad mean messy parents and the Davis cops did not enforce the law it would be a lot easier to “cross the border” in to Davis with my sister and break a window to illegally (aka without proper documentation) move in to Tia’s clean and nice guest room and get free food from her clean and nice kitchen and go to the nice clean Davis Schools (knowing Davis will just vote for another parcel tax to pay for me and all my friends that will come when I let them know that you will not be sent back when you break in to a Davis home and get free place to live, free food and a free education)…

      1. Tia Will

        SouthofDavis

        “Most (but not all) of the worlds poor are not really clear that leaving food out attracts bugs and other animals (or know that putting mud and/or steel wool in cracks will keep rodents out of their “homes”)”

        I would truly like to know how you have decided that “most” of the world’s poor are not really
        clear…..”
        What I have observed in my travel is that there is frequently a different tempo between discarding and clean up than we utilize here. An example from Haiti where the tradition in some houses is exactly as you said, to discard used items on the floor instead of into a trash receptacle. This does not make them any more or less dirty, because entirety of the floor is meticulously swept several times a day. It is not that refuse is allowed to accumulate, it is just cleared up on a schedule instead of piece meal. Also since there is no organized trash pickup in many communities, it is piled outside for the evening burn. Just because their strategy for clean up is different from ours does not mean that they do not have an effective strategy.

        1. D.D.

          Maybe I’m part Haitiin and don’t know it. I like that way of doing things. My toddlers would have loved to help me sweep once an hour (they had small broms and loved them!) rather than have Mommy go around picking stuf up constantly.
          This reminds me of Americans in movie theaters, the one place that many throw their trash on the sticky floor.

      2. tribeUSA

        South of Davis–re: “In my life it is sad to see America getting more and more like Mexico where the government (both the blue team and the red team) is getting more and more corrupt and primarily concerned with helping the rich and powerful not the poor or middle class (both red and blue team people) making it harder and harder for anyone to get a decent job (where the rich and connected pay them a decent wage) or start a business (that may compete with and cut the income of the rich and connected).”
        –spot on! I’m hoping that more americans are waking up to these realities and force changes to our political system to stem/reverse these trends (must start with huge reforms in campaign finance and lobbying; as I see it having election campaigns mainly publicly funded).

        Re: cleanliness issues–among students, particularly young men, this is due mainly to carelessness. Among poor non-student adults in USA and other countries, I would attribute lack of cleaning of living quarters to demoralization; also secondarily to poor physical and mental/emotional health among many.

        1. Tia Will

          tribeUSA

          ‘changes to our political system to stem/reverse these trends (must start with huge reforms in campaign finance and lobbying; as I see it having election campaigns mainly publicly funded).”

          Now here is a definite point of agreement.

          1. South of Davis

            Tia wrote:

            > Now here is a definite point of agreement.

            I’m wondering if Tia will support my “if you take money from someone you don’t get to vote on anything that will give them money” simple campaign finance reform idea (that will never see the light of day).

            I’m fine if defense contractors (corporations that are people) want to give millions to people they like I just want to make sure those people can’t vote to give them a big fat contract down the road, same with unions, I’m fine if they give millions (or go door to door) in support of people they like. I just want to make sure those people have to recuse themselves when it comes time to vote for union pay and benefit raises…

  5. Topcat

    Tia, It sounds like you are experiencing a bad case of “liberal guilt”. Perhaps you should volunteer to work in one of the developing countries to actually try to improve the lives of the people there?

    1. Tia Will

      Topcat

      I am surprised at this from you. In most of your posts you seem to have been making an actual point even if we are in disagreement. This is nothing but a cheap, and if you have read my posts, an inaccurate slam since I have made it clear that I have volunteered a number of times.

      The point of these one day ( if locally or regionally ) or one week if out of country trips is not so much then limited amount of time that we spend with the patients. The far more important aspects are:
      1) Those of us trained in the US, especially if we are experienced can serve as teachers to the doctors that accompany us who are typically natives who are repaying their training by serving in hardship areas. Our role is to pass on our knowledge and such skills as can be used in these rural settings. On my last trip to Honduras I worked closely with two of their doctors ( working at about the knowledge level in my specialty as first to second year residents ). They taught me about their society and helped with my language skills and I taught them my specialty.
      2) Those who go on this trips gain a unique insight into the lives of the people there as opposed to the stereotypes that we see on our “news” programs. I learned a few new and better ways of doing a few things in my office since I didn’t have all the fancy gear that I have here and had to improvise. Going on these trips can be of great benefit to both sides. Although my experience is very small compared to those who go regularly it has taught me a great deal that I would not have previously appreciated.

  6. Topcat

    Tia, It sounds like you are experiencing a bad case of “liberal guilt”. Perhaps you should volunteer to work in one of the developing countries to actually try to improve the lives of the people there?

    1. Tia Will

      Topcat

      I am surprised at this from you. In most of your posts you seem to have been making an actual point even if we are in disagreement. This is nothing but a cheap, and if you have read my posts, an inaccurate slam since I have made it clear that I have volunteered a number of times.

      The point of these one day ( if locally or regionally ) or one week if out of country trips is not so much then limited amount of time that we spend with the patients. The far more important aspects are:
      1) Those of us trained in the US, especially if we are experienced can serve as teachers to the doctors that accompany us who are typically natives who are repaying their training by serving in hardship areas. Our role is to pass on our knowledge and such skills as can be used in these rural settings. On my last trip to Honduras I worked closely with two of their doctors ( working at about the knowledge level in my specialty as first to second year residents ). They taught me about their society and helped with my language skills and I taught them my specialty.
      2) Those who go on this trips gain a unique insight into the lives of the people there as opposed to the stereotypes that we see on our “news” programs. I learned a few new and better ways of doing a few things in my office since I didn’t have all the fancy gear that I have here and had to improvise. Going on these trips can be of great benefit to both sides. Although my experience is very small compared to those who go regularly it has taught me a great deal that I would not have previously appreciated.

  7. Frankly

    First of all. I really appreciate this piece from Tia. Unlike a lot of other people I know and can talk to, Tia is honest, clear and consistent about her liberal worldview. It is refreshing, if also sometimes very frustrating, for me to read her stuff, because it helps me understand how my friends with more left-leaning views think and process information.

    Many of us have achieved our position by birth to “first class” parents, not by any effort of our own.

    Now here is where Tia is largely missing the bigger picture about America.

    There are no more or less “first class parents” in this country than there are in any other country. And I think if Tia thinks about this more carefully, she will probably agree with this point. In fact, I would say that hard working Americans, where both the mother and father (I can still use those terms without being accused of hate, right?) have to work and the kids are home alone after school, are not being first-class parents much of the time.

    What Tia and other left-leaning people seem to be missing or are otherwise unable to accept for some reason is this thing called American exceptionalism. Tia has even argued against this concept. And she has made it clear that she does not believe in the sovereign rights of countries and states. People that don’t believe in American exceptionalism must believe that our America good life just happened by chance or luck. Or that we somehow tricked the rest of the world stealing a greater share of global resources.

    Ok calm down Frankly… you are getting into the territory where you start to get steamed…

    There is a very clear great big gaping hole in the understanding of people holding views like Tia’s… that hole is a lack of understanding about, first, the assessment of what we have become, and two, the understanding of the key contributing factors.

    And I am leaving out the third consideration of the things preventing us from achieving the next level of greatness, because at this point we are mostly struggling with preventing the slide and spiral downward toward the typical mediocrity of others.

    What has America become? This is the glass half full point of view. And frankly, I don’t have the time to make this extensive list. Suffice it to say that the USA has done more positive things for global humanity than any other country before.

    But let’s just cut to the chase for the problems with Tia’s “world without borders” views.

    The problem is that her desires would choke the life out of an already dying American middle class. By going forth to save the world’s poor the way she envisions we would have to take more away from those in the middle to give to those at the bottom. And in taking this approach we would destroy the careful balance of economics, prosperity and class mobility that is at the heart of why America has been so damn successful and why people all over the world want to migrate here.

    Tia needs to get out the calculator to once and for all calculate the true cost of her social design. She has it in her head that there are enough wealthy people in the US to fund her massive adoption of global poor people campaign. If the IRS grabbed 100 percent of income over $1 million, the take would be just $616 billion. That’s only a third of this year’s deficit. Our national debt would continue to explode.

    There are just not that many wealthy people despite the myths of the left politicos and left media. The top 1% starts with families making $220,000 net income. q

    1. Tia Will

      Frankly

      “American exceptionalism must believe that our America good life just happened by chance or luck.”

      It is not true that if one does not believe in American exceptionalism that one “must believe”……anything in particular. I do not believe in American exceptionalism and I do not believe that our “American good life just happened by chance or by luck. I believe that America achieved our current status by a number of very complicated factors some involving hard work, some involving shameful treatment of other populations, some by negations that went favorably for the United States, and some by sheer military power. None of that is about chance or luck. Some of it we can be proud of, some of it should be cause for sincere regret that those who were in power chose to treat other abominably for their personal gain. Frankly, you often spend a good deal of time poking holes in arguments that I have never made and certainly do not believe but that you have heard some liberal say at sometime and therefore believe that we must all think that.

      1. Tia Will

        Frankly

        “once and for all calculate the true cost of her social design. She has it in her head that there are enough wealthy people in the US to fund her massive adoption of global poor people campaign.”

        This is yet another example of proving wrong something that I have never claimed. I have never, ever said that “there are enough wealthy people in the US to fund my massive adoption of global poor people. But you have decided that this is “in my head”. No Frankly, it is in your preconceived notion of what a liberal must think. What I have stated repeatedly is that I do believe that as a nation we do have enough wealth to support those that are trying to enter the country now as refugees. I have never, ever stated that the US alone can support all the worlds poor. But all the worlds poor are not camped out at our Southern Border. So you take your “slippery slope” fear, apply it to my limited statement and decide that what I must believe.

    2. Tia Will

      Frankly

      “There are no more or less “first class parents” in this country than there are in any other country.”

      Since I was using “first class” as it exists in the movie to apply to the wealthy, are you really going to claim that there are no more wealthy people in this country than in any other country on earth ? I surely am not understanding you correctly. Can your clarify ?

    3. Jim Frame

      There are just not that many wealthy people despite the myths of the left politicos and left media. The top 1% starts with families making $220,000 net income.

      It also includes families making hundreds of millions per year.

      In the U.S., the 1% accounts for about 20% of all income in the nation. The next 9% takes in about 30%, the middle 40% (“middle class”) about 30%, and the bottom 50% (“lower class”) about 20%.

        1. Jim Frame

          First, I didn’t write what you said I wrote. Please don’t attribute false quotes to me.

          I think it’s safe to say that any family with a net worth north of $10B probably takes in over $100M. That would require a mere 1% average return on assets to achieve, a very conservative figure even after you discount the assets that don’t produce income (houses, cars, etc.). There are about 40 CEOs who fall into this category, and that doesn’t count their spousal incomes. Then there are the families that don’t even have income from labor — the “quiet wealthy” who collect income from capital but don’t hold a job.

          My point wasn’t that there are millions of people making hundreds of millions per year, but rather the fact that earning $200K puts you into the 1% doesn’t accurately portray the nature of the 1%.

          1. South of Davis

            Jim wrote:

            > First, I didn’t write what you said I wrote. Please don’t
            > attribute false quotes to me.

            Looking again it sure looks like you wrote:

            “It also includes families making hundreds of millions per year.”

            Is the Vanguard site putting “false quotes” under your name?

            > I think it’s safe to say that any family with a net
            > worth north of $10B probably takes in over $100M.

            The Forbes 400 lists a total of 39 people with a net worth “north of $10B”

            > My point wasn’t that there are millions of people making
            > hundreds of millions per year,

            There are not “millions” of people making hundreds of millions per year (there have only been a handful who EVER that made that much in a year).

            Most stocks these days don’t pay a dividend and just because someone decided the million shares of Pets.com I own are worth $10mm more than last year does not mean I “made” $10mm that year (just like the average Davis family did not “make” and extra $100K since on average their home is worth $100K more than it was worth in 2011.

            I’m not a defender of obscene CEO pay I just want you to get the numbers in your rant somewhere close to reality…

        2. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          The problem with this is that no one is suggesting “taking everything away ” from anyone. What I am suggesting is that we can certainly afford due process of law for those now at the border. As Don has pointed out, our nation did not collapse from bringing in limited groups of refugees in the past and I highly suspect that we would not this time either.

          So what you, and others are doing is holding up a straw man argument based on your slippery slope worse case scenario and saying “See….it won’t work.”
          But of course, that is not what anyone that I am aware of is saying.

          So why don’t we actually discuss the current problem without dragging in the
          “supposed hell” that we must necessarily descend to if we take care of these kids.

          1. South of Davis

            Tia wrote:

            > The problem with this is that no one is suggesting
            > “taking everything away ” from anyone.

            When the government prints (more) money (like the $3.9 billion for the current border situation) inflation takes a little from everyone.

            Like Tia I’m doing OK and if the price of gas and food doubled I would not really notice, but that is NOT the case for most Americans.

            P.S. I find it funny that most (but not all) people that talk about doing “little things” like recycling or driving a hybrid to help the environment never seem to think we also need to make a lot of “little changes” to fix the (massive) budget deficit…

      1. Frankly

        We flood our nation with 50 million poor and uneducated immigrants over the last couple of decades, and then we have people putting out statistics to show how we have such growing income inequity and a growing population of poor people and how this somehow justified taking more money from the upper classes so that we can pay for even more poor people to come here.

        Absurd does not begin to describe it.

  8. Frankly

    First of all. I really appreciate this piece from Tia. Unlike a lot of other people I know and can talk to, Tia is honest, clear and consistent about her liberal worldview. It is refreshing, if also sometimes very frustrating, for me to read her stuff, because it helps me understand how my friends with more left-leaning views think and process information.

    Many of us have achieved our position by birth to “first class” parents, not by any effort of our own.

    Now here is where Tia is largely missing the bigger picture about America.

    There are no more or less “first class parents” in this country than there are in any other country. And I think if Tia thinks about this more carefully, she will probably agree with this point. In fact, I would say that hard working Americans, where both the mother and father (I can still use those terms without being accused of hate, right?) have to work and the kids are home alone after school, are not being first-class parents much of the time.

    What Tia and other left-leaning people seem to be missing or are otherwise unable to accept for some reason is this thing called American exceptionalism. Tia has even argued against this concept. And she has made it clear that she does not believe in the sovereign rights of countries and states. People that don’t believe in American exceptionalism must believe that our America good life just happened by chance or luck. Or that we somehow tricked the rest of the world stealing a greater share of global resources.

    Ok calm down Frankly… you are getting into the territory where you start to get steamed…

    There is a very clear great big gaping hole in the understanding of people holding views like Tia’s… that hole is a lack of understanding about, first, the assessment of what we have become, and two, the understanding of the key contributing factors.

    And I am leaving out the third consideration of the things preventing us from achieving the next level of greatness, because at this point we are mostly struggling with preventing the slide and spiral downward toward the typical mediocrity of others.

    What has America become? This is the glass half full point of view. And frankly, I don’t have the time to make this extensive list. Suffice it to say that the USA has done more positive things for global humanity than any other country before.

    But let’s just cut to the chase for the problems with Tia’s “world without borders” views.

    The problem is that her desires would choke the life out of an already dying American middle class. By going forth to save the world’s poor the way she envisions we would have to take more away from those in the middle to give to those at the bottom. And in taking this approach we would destroy the careful balance of economics, prosperity and class mobility that is at the heart of why America has been so damn successful and why people all over the world want to migrate here.

    Tia needs to get out the calculator to once and for all calculate the true cost of her social design. She has it in her head that there are enough wealthy people in the US to fund her massive adoption of global poor people campaign. If the IRS grabbed 100 percent of income over $1 million, the take would be just $616 billion. That’s only a third of this year’s deficit. Our national debt would continue to explode.

    There are just not that many wealthy people despite the myths of the left politicos and left media. The top 1% starts with families making $220,000 net income. q

    1. Tia Will

      Frankly

      “American exceptionalism must believe that our America good life just happened by chance or luck.”

      It is not true that if one does not believe in American exceptionalism that one “must believe”……anything in particular. I do not believe in American exceptionalism and I do not believe that our “American good life just happened by chance or by luck. I believe that America achieved our current status by a number of very complicated factors some involving hard work, some involving shameful treatment of other populations, some by negations that went favorably for the United States, and some by sheer military power. None of that is about chance or luck. Some of it we can be proud of, some of it should be cause for sincere regret that those who were in power chose to treat other abominably for their personal gain. Frankly, you often spend a good deal of time poking holes in arguments that I have never made and certainly do not believe but that you have heard some liberal say at sometime and therefore believe that we must all think that.

      1. Tia Will

        Frankly

        “once and for all calculate the true cost of her social design. She has it in her head that there are enough wealthy people in the US to fund her massive adoption of global poor people campaign.”

        This is yet another example of proving wrong something that I have never claimed. I have never, ever said that “there are enough wealthy people in the US to fund my massive adoption of global poor people. But you have decided that this is “in my head”. No Frankly, it is in your preconceived notion of what a liberal must think. What I have stated repeatedly is that I do believe that as a nation we do have enough wealth to support those that are trying to enter the country now as refugees. I have never, ever stated that the US alone can support all the worlds poor. But all the worlds poor are not camped out at our Southern Border. So you take your “slippery slope” fear, apply it to my limited statement and decide that what I must believe.

    2. Tia Will

      Frankly

      “There are no more or less “first class parents” in this country than there are in any other country.”

      Since I was using “first class” as it exists in the movie to apply to the wealthy, are you really going to claim that there are no more wealthy people in this country than in any other country on earth ? I surely am not understanding you correctly. Can your clarify ?

    3. Jim Frame

      There are just not that many wealthy people despite the myths of the left politicos and left media. The top 1% starts with families making $220,000 net income.

      It also includes families making hundreds of millions per year.

      In the U.S., the 1% accounts for about 20% of all income in the nation. The next 9% takes in about 30%, the middle 40% (“middle class”) about 30%, and the bottom 50% (“lower class”) about 20%.

        1. Jim Frame

          First, I didn’t write what you said I wrote. Please don’t attribute false quotes to me.

          I think it’s safe to say that any family with a net worth north of $10B probably takes in over $100M. That would require a mere 1% average return on assets to achieve, a very conservative figure even after you discount the assets that don’t produce income (houses, cars, etc.). There are about 40 CEOs who fall into this category, and that doesn’t count their spousal incomes. Then there are the families that don’t even have income from labor — the “quiet wealthy” who collect income from capital but don’t hold a job.

          My point wasn’t that there are millions of people making hundreds of millions per year, but rather the fact that earning $200K puts you into the 1% doesn’t accurately portray the nature of the 1%.

          1. South of Davis

            Jim wrote:

            > First, I didn’t write what you said I wrote. Please don’t
            > attribute false quotes to me.

            Looking again it sure looks like you wrote:

            “It also includes families making hundreds of millions per year.”

            Is the Vanguard site putting “false quotes” under your name?

            > I think it’s safe to say that any family with a net
            > worth north of $10B probably takes in over $100M.

            The Forbes 400 lists a total of 39 people with a net worth “north of $10B”

            > My point wasn’t that there are millions of people making
            > hundreds of millions per year,

            There are not “millions” of people making hundreds of millions per year (there have only been a handful who EVER that made that much in a year).

            Most stocks these days don’t pay a dividend and just because someone decided the million shares of Pets.com I own are worth $10mm more than last year does not mean I “made” $10mm that year (just like the average Davis family did not “make” and extra $100K since on average their home is worth $100K more than it was worth in 2011.

            I’m not a defender of obscene CEO pay I just want you to get the numbers in your rant somewhere close to reality…

        2. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          The problem with this is that no one is suggesting “taking everything away ” from anyone. What I am suggesting is that we can certainly afford due process of law for those now at the border. As Don has pointed out, our nation did not collapse from bringing in limited groups of refugees in the past and I highly suspect that we would not this time either.

          So what you, and others are doing is holding up a straw man argument based on your slippery slope worse case scenario and saying “See….it won’t work.”
          But of course, that is not what anyone that I am aware of is saying.

          So why don’t we actually discuss the current problem without dragging in the
          “supposed hell” that we must necessarily descend to if we take care of these kids.

          1. South of Davis

            Tia wrote:

            > The problem with this is that no one is suggesting
            > “taking everything away ” from anyone.

            When the government prints (more) money (like the $3.9 billion for the current border situation) inflation takes a little from everyone.

            Like Tia I’m doing OK and if the price of gas and food doubled I would not really notice, but that is NOT the case for most Americans.

            P.S. I find it funny that most (but not all) people that talk about doing “little things” like recycling or driving a hybrid to help the environment never seem to think we also need to make a lot of “little changes” to fix the (massive) budget deficit…

      1. Frankly

        We flood our nation with 50 million poor and uneducated immigrants over the last couple of decades, and then we have people putting out statistics to show how we have such growing income inequity and a growing population of poor people and how this somehow justified taking more money from the upper classes so that we can pay for even more poor people to come here.

        Absurd does not begin to describe it.

  9. Frankly

    Oops… somehow I clicked reply too soon…

    The $220,000 net include is about $383,000 gross income (before taxes).

    At the top 10% we have families making $77,500 net income per year.

    Go here to see an interactive map of income class: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html?_r=0

    The top 50% average $50,742 in net income.

    The bottom line here is that to capture enough income from others to help feed, shelter, and care for Tia’s global population of poor people, we would need to take from an American middle class that is not wealthy by any stretch… and has grown much more poor since the end of the 1990s as wages have dropped and housing and energy costs have escalated. Tia’s desires would put more people currently struggling to remain middle class, down into a position where they too will require assistance.

    So, if Tia’s solution is not the answer, then what is the solution then?

    First step, we need to care for our own existing poor population. We should not be accepting any more poor and uneducated people into this country until we improve the statics for income mobility and assimilation of our existing poor.

    And we do this by investing in economic growth.

    And with a better growing economy, we can afford to allow more poor and uneducated people in to help. And Americans will continue spending money on government and private programs to send money and help to these countries that need it so they can also help improve the lives of their people.

    1. Tia Will

      Frankly

      “Tia’s desires would put more people currently struggling to remain middle class, down into a position where they too will require assistance.”

      No, your charicature of my desires might do so. I do not believe that the fair and responsible treatment of the children who have crossed our border would destroy our middle class. Besides which, if we were to decide upon a restructuring of our economic system, the middle class would not need to struggle, and neither would the lower class because everyone’s living standard would be above what we now consider the poverty level. True, we wouldn’t have billionaires, but we also wouldn’t have children going without enough food.

      1. Frankly

        Using a calculator it is clear that you are advocating middle class death by a thousand cuts Tia. You cannot fund your social utopia without continually taking from the middle class. You can say you don’t support that, but then you cannot fund all the things you claim we should do without supporting that. So this point you make rings a bit hollow to me.

        1. Tia Will

          Frankly

          I am quite sure even without the use of a calculator that we are able to provide due process for the children who have arrived at our border without the destruction of the middle class. Since that was the subject of my article ( not how we feed every hungry child around the world) I will stand my ground on this one.

          1. TrueBlueDevil

            But can we handle Amnesty for 30-40 Million illegal or ‘unlawful’ immigrants; plus family reunification; plus the next wave of multiple-millions of illegal immigrants?

            Can the middle class handle that?

          2. South of Davis

            Tia wrote:

            > I am quite sure even without the use of a calculator that
            > we are able to provide due process for the children who
            > have arrived at our border without the destruction of the
            > middle class.

            That is easy to say when the odds that any of the kids will take your job before you retire is close to zero (the white guys I know that work in construction don’t feel as safe in their jobs as more and more jobs sites go to 100% Spanish speaking)…

  10. Frankly

    Oops… somehow I clicked reply too soon…

    The $220,000 net include is about $383,000 gross income (before taxes).

    At the top 10% we have families making $77,500 net income per year.

    Go here to see an interactive map of income class: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html?_r=0

    The top 50% average $50,742 in net income.

    The bottom line here is that to capture enough income from others to help feed, shelter, and care for Tia’s global population of poor people, we would need to take from an American middle class that is not wealthy by any stretch… and has grown much more poor since the end of the 1990s as wages have dropped and housing and energy costs have escalated. Tia’s desires would put more people currently struggling to remain middle class, down into a position where they too will require assistance.

    So, if Tia’s solution is not the answer, then what is the solution then?

    First step, we need to care for our own existing poor population. We should not be accepting any more poor and uneducated people into this country until we improve the statics for income mobility and assimilation of our existing poor.

    And we do this by investing in economic growth.

    And with a better growing economy, we can afford to allow more poor and uneducated people in to help. And Americans will continue spending money on government and private programs to send money and help to these countries that need it so they can also help improve the lives of their people.

    1. Tia Will

      Frankly

      “Tia’s desires would put more people currently struggling to remain middle class, down into a position where they too will require assistance.”

      No, your charicature of my desires might do so. I do not believe that the fair and responsible treatment of the children who have crossed our border would destroy our middle class. Besides which, if we were to decide upon a restructuring of our economic system, the middle class would not need to struggle, and neither would the lower class because everyone’s living standard would be above what we now consider the poverty level. True, we wouldn’t have billionaires, but we also wouldn’t have children going without enough food.

      1. Frankly

        Using a calculator it is clear that you are advocating middle class death by a thousand cuts Tia. You cannot fund your social utopia without continually taking from the middle class. You can say you don’t support that, but then you cannot fund all the things you claim we should do without supporting that. So this point you make rings a bit hollow to me.

        1. Tia Will

          Frankly

          I am quite sure even without the use of a calculator that we are able to provide due process for the children who have arrived at our border without the destruction of the middle class. Since that was the subject of my article ( not how we feed every hungry child around the world) I will stand my ground on this one.

          1. TrueBlueDevil

            But can we handle Amnesty for 30-40 Million illegal or ‘unlawful’ immigrants; plus family reunification; plus the next wave of multiple-millions of illegal immigrants?

            Can the middle class handle that?

          2. South of Davis

            Tia wrote:

            > I am quite sure even without the use of a calculator that
            > we are able to provide due process for the children who
            > have arrived at our border without the destruction of the
            > middle class.

            That is easy to say when the odds that any of the kids will take your job before you retire is close to zero (the white guys I know that work in construction don’t feel as safe in their jobs as more and more jobs sites go to 100% Spanish speaking)…

  11. TrueBlueDevil

    Has anyone ever offered to Tia that we would do far more good if we helped foster democracy & Capitalism in these countries? What a novel idea!

    Four decades of mass illegal immigration of 30-40 million individuals is not “small”.

    For the record, on the world stage Mexico is in the middle tier.

    Tia also seems way off base. Many people in my family were quite poor, and there was no tradition of college education or high learning. My grandparents had a dirt floor and no insulation in the upper midwest where it gets below zero, with an outhouse and chamber pot. There was one family bed. Food was what they grew in the garden; there was rarely meat. My Aunt had 1 outfit for school and church; her Mom made her “play clothes” from an old sack. Does that sound wealthy? This was where many Americans started. Then one young stud in the family became a carpenter, and came back, raised the house, and put it on a foundation and dug a cellar for food storage. (No refrigerator.)

    But many of us saw our forefathers work so hard through the Depression, they took advantage of public education.

    I know of an Irish lawyer who is now near retirement. His Dad died when he was young, he worked as a janitor on the graveyard shift, lived with his Mom, and went to law school in the day. No tattoos, no girlfriends, no bars, no night clubbing, no pot as the 60s were tearing loose. Today, 50 years later you might see his nice car… didn’t he earn that?

    In my life, I have heard countless stories like this, and I have heard far fewer about those born into great wealth. Yes, there are some.

    1. South of Davis

      TBD wrote:

      > Tia also seems way off base. Many people in my family were quite poor,
      > and there was no tradition of college education or high learning.

      It sounds like TBD is similar to both me and Tia, in that we grew up poor in families that didn’t go to college (of all my aunts and uncles and first cousins only one first cousin has a degree).

      I’m bummed out that Mexico and Central America that are beautiful places blessed with wonderful people, great weather, clear water and sandy beaches are run buy a corrupt “top 1%” that make our corrupt “top 1%” look great.

      I disagree with Tia in that letting the all the people who don’t want to live with (or join in) the corruption and violence in Mexico and Central America in to America is the best thing for us or them.

      1. Tia Will

        South of Davis

        “I disagree with Tia in that letting the all the people who don’t want to live with (or join in) the corruption and violence in Mexico and Central America in to America is the best thing for us or them.”

        Disagreement is fine. What would you consider a constructive approach beyond just closing the border and closing our eyes ?

        1. South of Davis

          Tia wrote:

          > What would you consider a constructive approach beyond just
          > closing the border and closing our eyes ?

          As Tia and I have both done I encourage people to go to Mexico (or another country where a lot of people need help) and take small steps to help them out.

          A good friends Dad spent a couple years in Honduras with the Peace Corps and after coming back to the Bay Area things went really well for him as the “South Bay” became the “Silicon Valley”. He has personally given millions to help the people of Honduras and used his connections to get others that have done real well to give millions more.

          With young kids I don’t do any volunteer work outside the US right now, but I do volunteer work here in CA.

          Top 1% kids like Tia’s with two MD parents will probably do fine but the future is not real bright for “most” of the kids in CA.

          A friend’s Dad went to work for Sears selling appliances after WWII (he retired as manager of a Sears Appliance Department) and after he passed away the home he bought for $21K in the 1950’s sold for $1.4 Million. My Uncle who was a teamster driving a delivery truck for years told me that a Realtor just told him that the San Mateo home he bought for $55K in the 1970’s is worth over $1.5 Million. It is not as bad here in Davis where you can get a “starter” home for ~$500K, but without rich parents how long is it going to take a typical couple of kids these days to pay off their ~$200K in student loans AND then start saving a ~$100K down payment.

          It is tempting to “want” to help ALL the kids when a boat is sinking, but if the lifeboat only holds 10 kids you can’t help all 20 since the extra 10 kids will sink the lifeboat and kill all of them. The more kids we let in to America that will work under the table for next to nothing the more we make it harder for American citizens to have a shot at a decent life.

          1. Tia Will

            South of Davis

            “It is tempting to “want” to help ALL the kids when a boat is sinking, but if the lifeboat only holds 10 kids you can’t help all 20 since the extra 10 kids will sink the lifeboat and kill all of them”

            Interesting that you chose this particular analogy. I see a different analogy as closer to what is occurring on our border. We have a policy that we will accept and care for those who meet our standards as refugees. I am not hearing anyone disputing that point.

            So let’s consider this situation. I am a lifeguard and I have a policy that states that I will rescue anyone who is drowning in my pool if they are truly in danger. I am sworn to do this regardless of their nationality.
            Now I see someone in the pool who is wildly gesticulating for help. I have the life preserver in my hand and can choose whether to throw it or not.
            Now I also see a group of American children standing near the edge of the pool. Do I pause and say, well I had better not throw this to the now desperate kid in the pool because one of these American kids might fall in. Or do I saw if I rescue this kid of questionable circumstance, more kids who can’t swim may come and fall in and get into trouble and then I won’t be able to rescue all of them. Well, I know what my clear choice is.
            I am going to throw the life preserver as I have agreed to do. If the kid isn’t really in trouble, I can send him home and bar him from the pool for his foolish and dangerous act of distracting the lifeguard. But if he is truly drowning, I will have saved a life.

    2. D.D.

      “No tattoos, no girlfriends, no bars, no night clubbing, no pot as the 60s were tearing loose. Today, 50 years later you might see his nice car… didn’t he earn that?”

      Today’s ink is the sixties long hair. Tatts are no big deal.
      We all need a balance of frivolity and serious hard work. At least I do, to keep my sanity, what’s left of it!

  12. TrueBlueDevil

    Has anyone ever offered to Tia that we would do far more good if we helped foster democracy & Capitalism in these countries? What a novel idea!

    Four decades of mass illegal immigration of 30-40 million individuals is not “small”.

    For the record, on the world stage Mexico is in the middle tier.

    Tia also seems way off base. Many people in my family were quite poor, and there was no tradition of college education or high learning. My grandparents had a dirt floor and no insulation in the upper midwest where it gets below zero, with an outhouse and chamber pot. There was one family bed. Food was what they grew in the garden; there was rarely meat. My Aunt had 1 outfit for school and church; her Mom made her “play clothes” from an old sack. Does that sound wealthy? This was where many Americans started. Then one young stud in the family became a carpenter, and came back, raised the house, and put it on a foundation and dug a cellar for food storage. (No refrigerator.)

    But many of us saw our forefathers work so hard through the Depression, they took advantage of public education.

    I know of an Irish lawyer who is now near retirement. His Dad died when he was young, he worked as a janitor on the graveyard shift, lived with his Mom, and went to law school in the day. No tattoos, no girlfriends, no bars, no night clubbing, no pot as the 60s were tearing loose. Today, 50 years later you might see his nice car… didn’t he earn that?

    In my life, I have heard countless stories like this, and I have heard far fewer about those born into great wealth. Yes, there are some.

    1. South of Davis

      TBD wrote:

      > Tia also seems way off base. Many people in my family were quite poor,
      > and there was no tradition of college education or high learning.

      It sounds like TBD is similar to both me and Tia, in that we grew up poor in families that didn’t go to college (of all my aunts and uncles and first cousins only one first cousin has a degree).

      I’m bummed out that Mexico and Central America that are beautiful places blessed with wonderful people, great weather, clear water and sandy beaches are run buy a corrupt “top 1%” that make our corrupt “top 1%” look great.

      I disagree with Tia in that letting the all the people who don’t want to live with (or join in) the corruption and violence in Mexico and Central America in to America is the best thing for us or them.

      1. Tia Will

        South of Davis

        “I disagree with Tia in that letting the all the people who don’t want to live with (or join in) the corruption and violence in Mexico and Central America in to America is the best thing for us or them.”

        Disagreement is fine. What would you consider a constructive approach beyond just closing the border and closing our eyes ?

        1. South of Davis

          Tia wrote:

          > What would you consider a constructive approach beyond just
          > closing the border and closing our eyes ?

          As Tia and I have both done I encourage people to go to Mexico (or another country where a lot of people need help) and take small steps to help them out.

          A good friends Dad spent a couple years in Honduras with the Peace Corps and after coming back to the Bay Area things went really well for him as the “South Bay” became the “Silicon Valley”. He has personally given millions to help the people of Honduras and used his connections to get others that have done real well to give millions more.

          With young kids I don’t do any volunteer work outside the US right now, but I do volunteer work here in CA.

          Top 1% kids like Tia’s with two MD parents will probably do fine but the future is not real bright for “most” of the kids in CA.

          A friend’s Dad went to work for Sears selling appliances after WWII (he retired as manager of a Sears Appliance Department) and after he passed away the home he bought for $21K in the 1950’s sold for $1.4 Million. My Uncle who was a teamster driving a delivery truck for years told me that a Realtor just told him that the San Mateo home he bought for $55K in the 1970’s is worth over $1.5 Million. It is not as bad here in Davis where you can get a “starter” home for ~$500K, but without rich parents how long is it going to take a typical couple of kids these days to pay off their ~$200K in student loans AND then start saving a ~$100K down payment.

          It is tempting to “want” to help ALL the kids when a boat is sinking, but if the lifeboat only holds 10 kids you can’t help all 20 since the extra 10 kids will sink the lifeboat and kill all of them. The more kids we let in to America that will work under the table for next to nothing the more we make it harder for American citizens to have a shot at a decent life.

          1. Tia Will

            South of Davis

            “It is tempting to “want” to help ALL the kids when a boat is sinking, but if the lifeboat only holds 10 kids you can’t help all 20 since the extra 10 kids will sink the lifeboat and kill all of them”

            Interesting that you chose this particular analogy. I see a different analogy as closer to what is occurring on our border. We have a policy that we will accept and care for those who meet our standards as refugees. I am not hearing anyone disputing that point.

            So let’s consider this situation. I am a lifeguard and I have a policy that states that I will rescue anyone who is drowning in my pool if they are truly in danger. I am sworn to do this regardless of their nationality.
            Now I see someone in the pool who is wildly gesticulating for help. I have the life preserver in my hand and can choose whether to throw it or not.
            Now I also see a group of American children standing near the edge of the pool. Do I pause and say, well I had better not throw this to the now desperate kid in the pool because one of these American kids might fall in. Or do I saw if I rescue this kid of questionable circumstance, more kids who can’t swim may come and fall in and get into trouble and then I won’t be able to rescue all of them. Well, I know what my clear choice is.
            I am going to throw the life preserver as I have agreed to do. If the kid isn’t really in trouble, I can send him home and bar him from the pool for his foolish and dangerous act of distracting the lifeguard. But if he is truly drowning, I will have saved a life.

    2. D.D.

      “No tattoos, no girlfriends, no bars, no night clubbing, no pot as the 60s were tearing loose. Today, 50 years later you might see his nice car… didn’t he earn that?”

      Today’s ink is the sixties long hair. Tatts are no big deal.
      We all need a balance of frivolity and serious hard work. At least I do, to keep my sanity, what’s left of it!

    1. Tia Will

      Barack Palin

      “How about we take care of our own first before we take on the rest of the world?”

      How do you define “our own” ? Does “our own” include only your family, or only our town, only our state,
      only our country ? I define “our” as any human being that we have the ability to help judged on a case by case basis. I don’t value American lives above those of other nationalities. I value human life. Period.

      1. South of Davis

        Tia wrote:

        > I define “our” as any human being that we have the ability to help
        > judged on a case by case basis. I don’t value American lives above
        > those of other nationalities. I value human life. Period.

        Yet I’m willing to bet that Tia “took care of her own” first (unless she wants to share the time she sent food or money out of the country when her own kids were hungry and/or living on the street)…

        The debate comes down to people like me who sees that raising the cost of doing business in America through higher taxes (every time we need a few Billion to help a bunch of illegals at the border) is going to cause more automation and more jobs going away making it even worse for most (the bottom 60%+ of America).

        I understand why rich empty nester MDs with multiple investment properties (and the tax shelters they provide) want higher taxes to help others. I just want to make sure they know the costs to a huge number of people here in America who are stuck living with Mommy & Daddy after 30 with a future that is not real bright (that will only get worse with higher taxes, a devalued dollar and more working age people in the US)…

    1. Tia Will

      Barack Palin

      “How about we take care of our own first before we take on the rest of the world?”

      How do you define “our own” ? Does “our own” include only your family, or only our town, only our state,
      only our country ? I define “our” as any human being that we have the ability to help judged on a case by case basis. I don’t value American lives above those of other nationalities. I value human life. Period.

      1. South of Davis

        Tia wrote:

        > I define “our” as any human being that we have the ability to help
        > judged on a case by case basis. I don’t value American lives above
        > those of other nationalities. I value human life. Period.

        Yet I’m willing to bet that Tia “took care of her own” first (unless she wants to share the time she sent food or money out of the country when her own kids were hungry and/or living on the street)…

        The debate comes down to people like me who sees that raising the cost of doing business in America through higher taxes (every time we need a few Billion to help a bunch of illegals at the border) is going to cause more automation and more jobs going away making it even worse for most (the bottom 60%+ of America).

        I understand why rich empty nester MDs with multiple investment properties (and the tax shelters they provide) want higher taxes to help others. I just want to make sure they know the costs to a huge number of people here in America who are stuck living with Mommy & Daddy after 30 with a future that is not real bright (that will only get worse with higher taxes, a devalued dollar and more working age people in the US)…

  13. tribeUSA

    Tia–you do seem to have adopted the conventional pc model narrative and viewpoint that the primary division of the world is between the oppressors and the oppressed, and that the relatively affluent societies owe their affluence strictly to ill-gotton gains. This is only partially accurate, and a small part of the greater story of the rise of modern civilization, which includes the conception and adopting by western civilization of the much vaunted human rights of which you speak. Prior to western civilization, there was no such recognition of individual rights. No question there has been much unfair exploitation (including currently by ruling class oligarchs in most countries throughout the world, including both the USA and the poor central and south american countries); but there has also been many many advantages incurred by the existence of the west, including the western development of modern medicine and the fact that over half of children now survive past early childhood; which was not the case before modern medicine.

    Furthermore I would propose that weakening and elimination of national borders and increasing the power of global governance and eventually of a ‘one-world’ governance system would result in an absolute and total tyranny and descent to a hellish world, and not to the nirvana that is implicitly portrayed by the current legions of paid technocrats in corporations, finance, government and media. (I may expound on this in another thread; there are sound foundations for this prognostication).

      1. Tia Will

        Frankly

        Except that I am not demanding utopia. I am requesting that we help the children that our requesting legitimate help from us as refugees with the idea of repatriating those who are not as soon as deemed safe to do so. I would also like to see slow and incremental change towards a more just and equitable society.

    1. tribeUSA

      Tia–I really don’t mean to get on your case, as I like reading most of your posts and agree with you on many other issues in the vanguard forum; but strongly disagree on issues having to do with immigration; and I have strong feelings about these issues.

      Another thing I’d like to mention is that you have selected to mention those oppressive and exploitive acts of the European settlers; but not that of the peoples they conquered or displaced. For those migrants from Mexico and central america, their ancestors consist chiefly of spanish europeans and of native tribes of the region. On the Spaniard side, their ancestors brutally slaughtered or enslaved many of the indian tribes. On the Indian ancestory side, the history was one of semi-chronic warfare and conquest, in societies where slavery (of war prisoners or entire conquered tribes) was a very ancient and intrinsic tradition, in a highly heirarchical society where the ruling classes typically had near total power over the commoners (who in turn had nearly total power over the slaves), and were often quite brutal. For example, the Aztecs had a tradition of ritual sacrifice of war prisoners; there is anthropological evidence that in some of the annual great religious rites held by the priests, as many as 10,000 prisoners of war were sacrificed over a period of several days by having their hearts cut out at the main altars; while they were alive. Torture was also quite widely practiced; they certainly rivaled the conquistadores (and even the inquisidors) in raw brutality!

      It seems the narrative we have been taught is to battle over which tribe or nation has committed the worst atrocities or the most saints and martyrs; when history tells us that pretty much all tribes and nations have their share of good and bad behaviors; on a comparable level. Thee are many trained scientists such as Tia on this forum; why not shift such a good guy:bad guy narrative (where is good Waldo vs. where is bad Waldo?) to instead one that looks to the reasons why all tribes and civilizations have such widespread examples of bad behavior; and how we can evolve social structures that are both desirable and that gradually reduce the incidence of such behaviors–or something along those lines.

      1. South of Davis

        trubeUSA wrote:

        I was surprised to hear (I didn’t learn this in CA public schools) from a still living relative that Indians in Eastern Oregon would wait until the men left then go to ranches and kill the women and children before stealing the cattle and other items as recently as the 1920’s (less than 100 years ago). My relative was alive to tell the tale because after my great great uncle came to America he married a Montana born pioneer girl who grew up hunting and was able to shoot back at the Indians killing them all (before the family gave them all a Christian burial)…

        1. tribeUSA

          Yikes, I wasn’t aware such activities extended into the 1920s (thought they had pretty much ended 20 years prior to 1920s). Yes, as I recall the Modoc Indians and allied tribes in that region were the last Indian holdouts; with the last land dispute warfare in the lower 48 states (I think the series of wars and skirmishes were known as the Modoc wars). They showed US cavalry and infantry troops a pretty good fight until the warriors were finally isolated and defeated (survivors who surrendered were half-starved and exhausted).

          Wow, sounds like your great great aunt was an Annie Oakley class sharpshooter to defeat all the attackers! (presumably in self-defense of her family)

        2. Tia Will

          South of Davis and tribeUSA

          I am unclear about the relation of this anecdote to the topic at hand. Beyond proving that at some time, most groups of people are capable of acts of brutality when they feel ( or are in reality) threatened….I fail to see the connection.

          And I certainly do not see this episode as an argument either for or against the United States honoring its own promise to accept refugees once an individual is confirmed as meeting that status.

          1. tribeUSA

            Tia–I thought you had written more about westerners being the exploiters and oppressors of the world; but in reviewing your articles and comments; I realize that your comments are actually more balanced. Apologies for my rants above; which I guess should really be directed more at the teachers of multiculturalism at college and statements of so many politicians; in which the european white man is so often portrayed as exploiter and oppressor and cause of the worlds problems–actually the historical record shows every culture and race has a similar record of good and bad deeds; but I am concerned that the youth of today are being indoctrinated, by educators, media, and politicians, that the white man is the source of all bad.

    2. Tia Will

      South of Davis

      “Yet I’m willing to bet that Tia “took care of her own” first (unless she wants to share the time she sent food or money out of the country when her own kids were hungry and/or living on the street)…”

      What is missing here is the concept that one doesn’t have to “take care of one’s own first” and then take care of others. Unfortunately, we never seem to get around to the “then”. It also does not mean that the help has to be monetary.

      I have a friend who is a much better example of caring for “her own” and others at the same time than I. Her husband died shortly after the birth of their one son. She is raising her son with her mother helping to provide child care while she works as a doctor, and yet she still makes yearly trips to a central American country ( sorry can’t remember which one) where she does surgery on her own time, at her own expense. True, my life circumstances did not provide this level of involvement but I did and do volunteer locally.

      My point is that even those that do have to “take care of their own” can also participate in the care of others simultaneously.. While I feel that local action probably has the most impact, acting in other countries can also have benefit especially if one is sharing one’s skills and knowledge with those who have the need will benefit directly and will pass on the newly acquired skills.

      The aphorism “give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime” is clearly applicable. Some of you seem to believe that I am advocating for bringing these children in and placing them on welfare.
      I am not. What I would recommend is that we bring those we determine to be refugees in, provide public education and solid training for them and then, and only then repatriate those who have the ability to go back, and continue to provide safe haven for those we have trained and whose circumstances will not allow safe haven.

      If this were to be done in conjunction with “working with other governments” as our policy states to provide safer conditions over time, then perhaps some of these refugees would indeed be able to return to their homes, which is all that many of them really want.

      1. South of Davis

        Tia wrote:

        > What is missing here is the concept that one doesn’t have to “take care
        > of one’s own first” and then take care of others. Unfortunately, we never
        > seem to get around to the “then”.

        If you were to get outside Davis you would see that “most” people in California don’t have the “then” because times are so tough that they don’t have the time (with the second job) or money (even with the second job) to “take care of their own (huge numbers of Dads these days never even “see” their kids M-F working long hours).

        We have a small amount of people in Davis who don’t “take care of their own” with some Dads who kick the wife and kids to the curb and move in with a younger gal (or do volunteer work while his kid smokes pot and beats up gay guys).

        I know Tia has worked hard and I congratulate her (and with her kids out of college I would support her moving to Mexico and helping the people full time giving all her money), but I want her to know that raising taxes or printing more money (pushing gas over $5 gallon) to “help” the poor illegal aliens is going to really HURT most Legal Americans that are already having a tough time.

        1. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          “Americans that are already having a tough time.”

          What are you using as your bench mark ? Are you using not being able to buy as large a home as one might like in Davis ?
          Are you using not being able to afford dinner out twice a month ?
          Are you using not having a lifestyle better than that of their parents, regardless of how wealthy their parents are ?
          Are you talking about not having a roof over their head, or needing to utilize food banks and free clinics ?

          I would counter that much of the world would be willing to work much, much harder than we do to attain the living standard of those of us who are “having a tough time”.

          I speak as someone who has lived at the full range of the economic spectrum in this country from watching my mom figure out how she was going to make a few dollars last until her next pay day, to earning my own way on minimum wage while going to school, to accepting government funding to help finance medical school to being, by the definition posted here in the top 1-2 %. We simply do not appreciate what we have in this country. Even when we were approaching the bottom of the economic scale here, we had far more than many that I have seen in other countries. I suspect that if we could measure, we as a country would score quite highly interns of personal material wealth, while falling very short on personal gratitude for what we have.

        2. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          I do not consider compensation or a positive incentive for behavior that we want to encourage “welfare”.
          Perhaps you do and therefore we are simply using the word differently. Or perhaps you are using “child labor” to indicate what a child does when they go to school. Either way, my point is that I simply believe that we would be far better off compensating people for doing the things that we believe as a society should be done.
          For a child, that happens to be attending school. For a parent that may mean raising their children, or it may mean working outside the home, or it may mean being self employees in any number of different types of endeavors.

          Nowhere have I said that I believe that this could be accomplished overnight. However, I also do not believe that
          we are being asked to take on all the poor of the world as my alarmist fellow posters have asserted.
          I believe that we do have enough now to support the numbers of children who have arrived at our border long enough to provide them with our own decided upon due process of law. That was all I was saying in my article.
          It is you, and Frankly, and BP who have decided that I must be on a quest to save every human in the world now.

      2. South of Davis

        Tia wrote:

        > Some of you seem to believe that I am advocating for bringing
        > these children in and placing them on welfare.

        With “children” we have three choices:

        1. Put them on welfare and in foster care
        2. Put them to work (child labor like in the 1800’s)
        3. Turn them loose to live on the streets and join gangs

        I would be interested to hear what industries Tia wants the kids to work in on what neighborhood we should dump the homeless poor children if she is really not “advocating for bringing these children in and placing them on welfare”…

        1. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          I have posted many times how I would handle this situation.
          I would completely restructure our means of compensation for any type of positive contribution to our society. I would include education since it has been demonstrated many times that educated individuals do better materially overall.
          So what I would propose is that each of these children attend school at an appropriate level and be compensated for this activity at a level that keeps them above the poverty level. They could live with relatives if they are here or with sponsor families if not. You could call this “welfare” if you like. I personally would view it as an incentive for doing what is expected of an individual at their age and skills level.

          But then, that is what I would advocate for all members of our society in which case no one would have to struggle to stay above the poverty line. They would receive compensation on an hourly basis for their positive contribution, including caring for those unable to care for themselves.

          1. South of Davis

            Tia wrote:

            > I would completely restructure our means of compensation for
            > any type of positive contribution to our society.

            Thousands of kids are here NOW so let’s be honest and admit that you are “advocating for placing them on welfare” (it’s OK to be honest), unless you think we can “completely restructure our means of compensation” before we need welfare money to pay for the kids breakfast tomorrow morning (or you think it is better to put them to work (child labor like in the 1800′s) or Turn them loose to live on the streets and join gangs)…

  14. tribeUSA

    Tia–you do seem to have adopted the conventional pc model narrative and viewpoint that the primary division of the world is between the oppressors and the oppressed, and that the relatively affluent societies owe their affluence strictly to ill-gotton gains. This is only partially accurate, and a small part of the greater story of the rise of modern civilization, which includes the conception and adopting by western civilization of the much vaunted human rights of which you speak. Prior to western civilization, there was no such recognition of individual rights. No question there has been much unfair exploitation (including currently by ruling class oligarchs in most countries throughout the world, including both the USA and the poor central and south american countries); but there has also been many many advantages incurred by the existence of the west, including the western development of modern medicine and the fact that over half of children now survive past early childhood; which was not the case before modern medicine.

    Furthermore I would propose that weakening and elimination of national borders and increasing the power of global governance and eventually of a ‘one-world’ governance system would result in an absolute and total tyranny and descent to a hellish world, and not to the nirvana that is implicitly portrayed by the current legions of paid technocrats in corporations, finance, government and media. (I may expound on this in another thread; there are sound foundations for this prognostication).

      1. Tia Will

        Frankly

        Except that I am not demanding utopia. I am requesting that we help the children that our requesting legitimate help from us as refugees with the idea of repatriating those who are not as soon as deemed safe to do so. I would also like to see slow and incremental change towards a more just and equitable society.

    1. tribeUSA

      Tia–I really don’t mean to get on your case, as I like reading most of your posts and agree with you on many other issues in the vanguard forum; but strongly disagree on issues having to do with immigration; and I have strong feelings about these issues.

      Another thing I’d like to mention is that you have selected to mention those oppressive and exploitive acts of the European settlers; but not that of the peoples they conquered or displaced. For those migrants from Mexico and central america, their ancestors consist chiefly of spanish europeans and of native tribes of the region. On the Spaniard side, their ancestors brutally slaughtered or enslaved many of the indian tribes. On the Indian ancestory side, the history was one of semi-chronic warfare and conquest, in societies where slavery (of war prisoners or entire conquered tribes) was a very ancient and intrinsic tradition, in a highly heirarchical society where the ruling classes typically had near total power over the commoners (who in turn had nearly total power over the slaves), and were often quite brutal. For example, the Aztecs had a tradition of ritual sacrifice of war prisoners; there is anthropological evidence that in some of the annual great religious rites held by the priests, as many as 10,000 prisoners of war were sacrificed over a period of several days by having their hearts cut out at the main altars; while they were alive. Torture was also quite widely practiced; they certainly rivaled the conquistadores (and even the inquisidors) in raw brutality!

      It seems the narrative we have been taught is to battle over which tribe or nation has committed the worst atrocities or the most saints and martyrs; when history tells us that pretty much all tribes and nations have their share of good and bad behaviors; on a comparable level. Thee are many trained scientists such as Tia on this forum; why not shift such a good guy:bad guy narrative (where is good Waldo vs. where is bad Waldo?) to instead one that looks to the reasons why all tribes and civilizations have such widespread examples of bad behavior; and how we can evolve social structures that are both desirable and that gradually reduce the incidence of such behaviors–or something along those lines.

      1. South of Davis

        trubeUSA wrote:

        I was surprised to hear (I didn’t learn this in CA public schools) from a still living relative that Indians in Eastern Oregon would wait until the men left then go to ranches and kill the women and children before stealing the cattle and other items as recently as the 1920’s (less than 100 years ago). My relative was alive to tell the tale because after my great great uncle came to America he married a Montana born pioneer girl who grew up hunting and was able to shoot back at the Indians killing them all (before the family gave them all a Christian burial)…

        1. tribeUSA

          Yikes, I wasn’t aware such activities extended into the 1920s (thought they had pretty much ended 20 years prior to 1920s). Yes, as I recall the Modoc Indians and allied tribes in that region were the last Indian holdouts; with the last land dispute warfare in the lower 48 states (I think the series of wars and skirmishes were known as the Modoc wars). They showed US cavalry and infantry troops a pretty good fight until the warriors were finally isolated and defeated (survivors who surrendered were half-starved and exhausted).

          Wow, sounds like your great great aunt was an Annie Oakley class sharpshooter to defeat all the attackers! (presumably in self-defense of her family)

        2. Tia Will

          South of Davis and tribeUSA

          I am unclear about the relation of this anecdote to the topic at hand. Beyond proving that at some time, most groups of people are capable of acts of brutality when they feel ( or are in reality) threatened….I fail to see the connection.

          And I certainly do not see this episode as an argument either for or against the United States honoring its own promise to accept refugees once an individual is confirmed as meeting that status.

          1. tribeUSA

            Tia–I thought you had written more about westerners being the exploiters and oppressors of the world; but in reviewing your articles and comments; I realize that your comments are actually more balanced. Apologies for my rants above; which I guess should really be directed more at the teachers of multiculturalism at college and statements of so many politicians; in which the european white man is so often portrayed as exploiter and oppressor and cause of the worlds problems–actually the historical record shows every culture and race has a similar record of good and bad deeds; but I am concerned that the youth of today are being indoctrinated, by educators, media, and politicians, that the white man is the source of all bad.

    2. Tia Will

      South of Davis

      “Yet I’m willing to bet that Tia “took care of her own” first (unless she wants to share the time she sent food or money out of the country when her own kids were hungry and/or living on the street)…”

      What is missing here is the concept that one doesn’t have to “take care of one’s own first” and then take care of others. Unfortunately, we never seem to get around to the “then”. It also does not mean that the help has to be monetary.

      I have a friend who is a much better example of caring for “her own” and others at the same time than I. Her husband died shortly after the birth of their one son. She is raising her son with her mother helping to provide child care while she works as a doctor, and yet she still makes yearly trips to a central American country ( sorry can’t remember which one) where she does surgery on her own time, at her own expense. True, my life circumstances did not provide this level of involvement but I did and do volunteer locally.

      My point is that even those that do have to “take care of their own” can also participate in the care of others simultaneously.. While I feel that local action probably has the most impact, acting in other countries can also have benefit especially if one is sharing one’s skills and knowledge with those who have the need will benefit directly and will pass on the newly acquired skills.

      The aphorism “give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime” is clearly applicable. Some of you seem to believe that I am advocating for bringing these children in and placing them on welfare.
      I am not. What I would recommend is that we bring those we determine to be refugees in, provide public education and solid training for them and then, and only then repatriate those who have the ability to go back, and continue to provide safe haven for those we have trained and whose circumstances will not allow safe haven.

      If this were to be done in conjunction with “working with other governments” as our policy states to provide safer conditions over time, then perhaps some of these refugees would indeed be able to return to their homes, which is all that many of them really want.

      1. South of Davis

        Tia wrote:

        > What is missing here is the concept that one doesn’t have to “take care
        > of one’s own first” and then take care of others. Unfortunately, we never
        > seem to get around to the “then”.

        If you were to get outside Davis you would see that “most” people in California don’t have the “then” because times are so tough that they don’t have the time (with the second job) or money (even with the second job) to “take care of their own (huge numbers of Dads these days never even “see” their kids M-F working long hours).

        We have a small amount of people in Davis who don’t “take care of their own” with some Dads who kick the wife and kids to the curb and move in with a younger gal (or do volunteer work while his kid smokes pot and beats up gay guys).

        I know Tia has worked hard and I congratulate her (and with her kids out of college I would support her moving to Mexico and helping the people full time giving all her money), but I want her to know that raising taxes or printing more money (pushing gas over $5 gallon) to “help” the poor illegal aliens is going to really HURT most Legal Americans that are already having a tough time.

        1. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          “Americans that are already having a tough time.”

          What are you using as your bench mark ? Are you using not being able to buy as large a home as one might like in Davis ?
          Are you using not being able to afford dinner out twice a month ?
          Are you using not having a lifestyle better than that of their parents, regardless of how wealthy their parents are ?
          Are you talking about not having a roof over their head, or needing to utilize food banks and free clinics ?

          I would counter that much of the world would be willing to work much, much harder than we do to attain the living standard of those of us who are “having a tough time”.

          I speak as someone who has lived at the full range of the economic spectrum in this country from watching my mom figure out how she was going to make a few dollars last until her next pay day, to earning my own way on minimum wage while going to school, to accepting government funding to help finance medical school to being, by the definition posted here in the top 1-2 %. We simply do not appreciate what we have in this country. Even when we were approaching the bottom of the economic scale here, we had far more than many that I have seen in other countries. I suspect that if we could measure, we as a country would score quite highly interns of personal material wealth, while falling very short on personal gratitude for what we have.

        2. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          I do not consider compensation or a positive incentive for behavior that we want to encourage “welfare”.
          Perhaps you do and therefore we are simply using the word differently. Or perhaps you are using “child labor” to indicate what a child does when they go to school. Either way, my point is that I simply believe that we would be far better off compensating people for doing the things that we believe as a society should be done.
          For a child, that happens to be attending school. For a parent that may mean raising their children, or it may mean working outside the home, or it may mean being self employees in any number of different types of endeavors.

          Nowhere have I said that I believe that this could be accomplished overnight. However, I also do not believe that
          we are being asked to take on all the poor of the world as my alarmist fellow posters have asserted.
          I believe that we do have enough now to support the numbers of children who have arrived at our border long enough to provide them with our own decided upon due process of law. That was all I was saying in my article.
          It is you, and Frankly, and BP who have decided that I must be on a quest to save every human in the world now.

      2. South of Davis

        Tia wrote:

        > Some of you seem to believe that I am advocating for bringing
        > these children in and placing them on welfare.

        With “children” we have three choices:

        1. Put them on welfare and in foster care
        2. Put them to work (child labor like in the 1800’s)
        3. Turn them loose to live on the streets and join gangs

        I would be interested to hear what industries Tia wants the kids to work in on what neighborhood we should dump the homeless poor children if she is really not “advocating for bringing these children in and placing them on welfare”…

        1. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          I have posted many times how I would handle this situation.
          I would completely restructure our means of compensation for any type of positive contribution to our society. I would include education since it has been demonstrated many times that educated individuals do better materially overall.
          So what I would propose is that each of these children attend school at an appropriate level and be compensated for this activity at a level that keeps them above the poverty level. They could live with relatives if they are here or with sponsor families if not. You could call this “welfare” if you like. I personally would view it as an incentive for doing what is expected of an individual at their age and skills level.

          But then, that is what I would advocate for all members of our society in which case no one would have to struggle to stay above the poverty line. They would receive compensation on an hourly basis for their positive contribution, including caring for those unable to care for themselves.

          1. South of Davis

            Tia wrote:

            > I would completely restructure our means of compensation for
            > any type of positive contribution to our society.

            Thousands of kids are here NOW so let’s be honest and admit that you are “advocating for placing them on welfare” (it’s OK to be honest), unless you think we can “completely restructure our means of compensation” before we need welfare money to pay for the kids breakfast tomorrow morning (or you think it is better to put them to work (child labor like in the 1800′s) or Turn them loose to live on the streets and join gangs)…

    1. South of Davis

      Tia wrote:

      > “Honest “is not synonymous with “let’s only talk about this on my terms”

      For Tia it looks like “Honest” means “never having to answer a tough question”. Post after post she (more often than not) just ignores the tough questions.

      If there was an easy way to help kids in the rest of the world without screwing most Americans (who are not MDs with million $+ real estate portfolios) we would be doing it…

      P.S. It is the next day and we have not “completely restructure our means of compensation” so that means you still need to answer the question…

      1. Tia Will

        South of Davis

        I will answer any question that pertains to the children now on the border.
        I will not even attempt to answer any question that is about how to “save all the children n the world” or about how we handle millions and millions of refugees. That is not what I wrote about and that is not the current issue we are facing.

        So given that, what is your question ?

    1. South of Davis

      Tia wrote:

      > “Honest “is not synonymous with “let’s only talk about this on my terms”

      For Tia it looks like “Honest” means “never having to answer a tough question”. Post after post she (more often than not) just ignores the tough questions.

      If there was an easy way to help kids in the rest of the world without screwing most Americans (who are not MDs with million $+ real estate portfolios) we would be doing it…

      P.S. It is the next day and we have not “completely restructure our means of compensation” so that means you still need to answer the question…

      1. Tia Will

        South of Davis

        I will answer any question that pertains to the children now on the border.
        I will not even attempt to answer any question that is about how to “save all the children n the world” or about how we handle millions and millions of refugees. That is not what I wrote about and that is not the current issue we are facing.

        So given that, what is your question ?

  15. TrueBlueDevil

    Breaking News

    The Feds are providing a $50 Million resort complex for some of the newest illegal immigrants. Oh, is this a delicious slap-back by Obama, or more mere incompetence?

  16. TrueBlueDevil

    Breaking News

    The Feds are providing a $50 Million resort complex for some of the newest illegal immigrants. Oh, is this a delicious slap-back by Obama, or more mere incompetence?

  17. D.D.

    Oops, Republican Kwasman did it again, this time in Disneyland.
    I know folks who worked on that ride in the 70’s. And I lived in Anaheim. I’ve never heard of any politician ever being escorted out of the happiest place on earth due to misbehaving. (Bothering little guests.)
    Wow. Mickey and Minnie say, “Shame on you.”

  18. D.D.

    Oops, Republican Kwasman did it again, this time in Disneyland.
    I know folks who worked on that ride in the 70’s. And I lived in Anaheim. I’ve never heard of any politician ever being escorted out of the happiest place on earth due to misbehaving. (Bothering little guests.)
    Wow. Mickey and Minnie say, “Shame on you.”

  19. Tia Will

    I am very concerned about the interpretation of personal freedom and the right to bear arms as meaning that one is free to establish a paramilitary organization not subject to the law.

    I am truly wondering if those in Arizona, or anywhere along the border, who bear arms in protest are merely doing it for publicity, or for purposes of intimidation, or if they would truly use these weapons against those who are desperate enough to attempt to enter the country illegally. Where would they stop ? Do they see it as ok to only shoot those who “look like gang members” to them, or would they also consider women and children fair game ?

    And what of those who are choosing to close roads to anyone who cannot or will not produce identification ?
    I frequently go out without an identification card. If I were near one of their checkpoints, what would the outcome be if I simply kept walking. Would I be shot, or physically restrained ( aka kidnapped). Just what is the intent here ? Are they perhaps seeking to provoke another Waco or Ruby Ridge ?

  20. Tia Will

    I am very concerned about the interpretation of personal freedom and the right to bear arms as meaning that one is free to establish a paramilitary organization not subject to the law.

    I am truly wondering if those in Arizona, or anywhere along the border, who bear arms in protest are merely doing it for publicity, or for purposes of intimidation, or if they would truly use these weapons against those who are desperate enough to attempt to enter the country illegally. Where would they stop ? Do they see it as ok to only shoot those who “look like gang members” to them, or would they also consider women and children fair game ?

    And what of those who are choosing to close roads to anyone who cannot or will not produce identification ?
    I frequently go out without an identification card. If I were near one of their checkpoints, what would the outcome be if I simply kept walking. Would I be shot, or physically restrained ( aka kidnapped). Just what is the intent here ? Are they perhaps seeking to provoke another Waco or Ruby Ridge ?

  21. D.D.

    As for intimidation, it sure worked for this Massachusett born woman. My freedom of assembly and freedom of speech was being threatened but I did not have the courage to face armed people. So I delivered a care package for the orphans at another location that day. Also, there were monsoons that day and the drive from my home would have been a little scary.
    The armed militias are definitely intimidating. Even more so for people who were not born and raised here.
    The are keeping people from peaceably protesting in public, IMHO.

  22. D.D.

    As for intimidation, it sure worked for this Massachusett born woman. My freedom of assembly and freedom of speech was being threatened but I did not have the courage to face armed people. So I delivered a care package for the orphans at another location that day. Also, there were monsoons that day and the drive from my home would have been a little scary.
    The armed militias are definitely intimidating. Even more so for people who were not born and raised here.
    The are keeping people from peaceably protesting in public, IMHO.

  23. TrueBlueDevil

    First of all, the idea that these are primarily children is laughable: many are older teenagers and young men coming here to work illegally. Many come from countries that are economically in the middle of the pack (i.e., Mexico). Some are even gang members.

    We’ve got news (links) from the DrudgeReport last evening that Obama plans an Executive Order at the end of this summer granting 3-5 Million illegal immigrants Amnesty, and he’s had plenty of meeting with La Raza (“The Race”). But our President didn’t go to the border, his Katrina moment… he had fundraising and pool playing and beer drinking to attend to. (Hence his 39% approval rating with Gallup.)

    Is a 14-year-old child really “penilless” when the parents pay a coyote $3,000-8,000 to smuggle them across the border?

    Tia, you again assert erroneously: “Many of us have achieved our position by birth to “first class” parents, not by any effort of our own.”

    Really? Sorry, our recent economic success came to America after decades, hundreds of years of hard work. We still have those who lived through the Great Depression: my aunt had 2 outfits: a dress for school and church; and a potato sack her mother made for play time. Many were first admitted to college with the GI Bill. I guess you might make a swipe at recent Indian immigrants with wealthy families who buy their visa, but many of them have also worked quite hard.

    By extension, you must then also be asserting that the first few generations of African American business leaders, lawyers, and doctors had a free hand out. What a lark!

    Tia, are you already aware that we have one of the most liberal legal (and illegal) immigration policies in the world?

    Concerning Mr. Gates, who may have a wealth which exceeds $50 Billion… do you know where his money is going? I heard on the radio that each of his children will get $10 million, the rest will go to charity. You must be unaware of this. So a man who helped change the world, will give away 99.9% of his wealth.

    I’d think a more long-lasting and helpful strategy would be to help Mexico and other countries improve their economic, health care, and educational systems.

    1. D.D.

      Have you visited the cages at the Nogales Detention Center, or the Tucson Greyhound Bus Station?
      Have you looked at the news reports and seen the very young children being held in cages, with only an aluminum type blanket on a concrete floor, similar to dogs at a shelter?
      Whatever your opinion re: immigration, do you truly believe that this is the best way for Americans to treat our visitors? Really?

      1. D.D.

        One comment poster claimed they were wearing levi’s and “work” boots. I tried to explain I also wear jeans and leather boots when I am hiking here in Tucson. I’m definitely not picking brocolli, I’m wisely protecting myself from sharp cactus & rattlesnakes.
        An eight year old in jeans and comfortable boots does not equate to an illegal farmworker.

    2. Tia Will

      TBD

      “he idea that these are primarily children is laughable: many are older teenagers and young men coming here to work illegally. Many come from countries that are economically in the middle of the pack (i.e., Mexico). Some are even gang members.”

      I have no problem at all with an investigative process to decide who the “gang members” are and separate them from those truly needing asylum. What I do object to is not even trying to make such a distinction and just sending everyone back.

      “Is a 14-year-old child really “penilless” when the parents pay a coyote $3,000-8,000 to smuggle them across the border?”
      If the $3-4,000 is all the family has and it is being used to save the life of their child, they are certainly penniless after it is spent. Would you not be willing to spend that amount if you thought it was your only shot of saving your child from conscription or death and the hands of a gang or militia ? I know for a fact I would, and I would not let another country’s laws from stopping me either.

      “are you already aware that we have one of the most liberal legal (and illegal) immigration policies in the world”

      Yes, and I fail to see relevance since I do not believe that we should be modeling our policies on what other countries chose to do.

      “I guess you might make a swipe at recent Indian immigrants with wealthy families who buy their visa, but many of them have also worked quite hard.”

      I am not making a “swipe” at anyone. We claim that we base our judgement of individual based on their own hard work and accomplishments. However, as you noted, the children of the very rich are exceptions that we do not acknowledge. Paris Hilton is the example that I like to use. Her wealth has been inherited, not earned.
      Within our system, she has a right to it. But let’s not pretend that many in our society have their material wealth not because of any contribution that they have made personally, but rather on the basis of the accident of whom they happen to be born to. This is a genetic throw of the dice, not a measure of their merit. I find it ironic that in a society that claims to value rugged individualism, we have no difficulty allowing some to go hungry and homeless because their “cast of the die” was less fortunate than that of the Gates children.
      Personally, I envy no one. I have done very well in my life. But, I do not pretend that I did it alone. I was able to succeed because the human collective that we call the government was willing to invest in me at many critical points in my life. I would simply like to pass this on to those in need now.

    3. La pace sia con voi.

      So, are you saying the Indian or Asian or other “illegals” are okay, just not the latino’s? Really? huh?
      Also, you state:
      First of all, the idea that these are primarily children is laughable: many are older teenagers and young men coming here to work illegally. Many come from countries that are economically in the middle of the pack (i.e., Mexico).
      Some are even gang members.

      I doubt that many 8 year old girls from Honduras and Guatemala are violent, dangerous gang members. They are escaping gang members!

      “Is a 14-year-old child really “penilless” when the parents pay a coyote $3,000-8,000 to smuggle them across the border?”

      Even John McCain admits that thousands of the border crossers are CHILDREN, and their parents pay coyotes their life savings to get here. See McCain’s email below.

  24. TrueBlueDevil

    First of all, the idea that these are primarily children is laughable: many are older teenagers and young men coming here to work illegally. Many come from countries that are economically in the middle of the pack (i.e., Mexico). Some are even gang members.

    We’ve got news (links) from the DrudgeReport last evening that Obama plans an Executive Order at the end of this summer granting 3-5 Million illegal immigrants Amnesty, and he’s had plenty of meeting with La Raza (“The Race”). But our President didn’t go to the border, his Katrina moment… he had fundraising and pool playing and beer drinking to attend to. (Hence his 39% approval rating with Gallup.)

    Is a 14-year-old child really “penilless” when the parents pay a coyote $3,000-8,000 to smuggle them across the border?

    Tia, you again assert erroneously: “Many of us have achieved our position by birth to “first class” parents, not by any effort of our own.”

    Really? Sorry, our recent economic success came to America after decades, hundreds of years of hard work. We still have those who lived through the Great Depression: my aunt had 2 outfits: a dress for school and church; and a potato sack her mother made for play time. Many were first admitted to college with the GI Bill. I guess you might make a swipe at recent Indian immigrants with wealthy families who buy their visa, but many of them have also worked quite hard.

    By extension, you must then also be asserting that the first few generations of African American business leaders, lawyers, and doctors had a free hand out. What a lark!

    Tia, are you already aware that we have one of the most liberal legal (and illegal) immigration policies in the world?

    Concerning Mr. Gates, who may have a wealth which exceeds $50 Billion… do you know where his money is going? I heard on the radio that each of his children will get $10 million, the rest will go to charity. You must be unaware of this. So a man who helped change the world, will give away 99.9% of his wealth.

    I’d think a more long-lasting and helpful strategy would be to help Mexico and other countries improve their economic, health care, and educational systems.

    1. D.D.

      Have you visited the cages at the Nogales Detention Center, or the Tucson Greyhound Bus Station?
      Have you looked at the news reports and seen the very young children being held in cages, with only an aluminum type blanket on a concrete floor, similar to dogs at a shelter?
      Whatever your opinion re: immigration, do you truly believe that this is the best way for Americans to treat our visitors? Really?

      1. D.D.

        One comment poster claimed they were wearing levi’s and “work” boots. I tried to explain I also wear jeans and leather boots when I am hiking here in Tucson. I’m definitely not picking brocolli, I’m wisely protecting myself from sharp cactus & rattlesnakes.
        An eight year old in jeans and comfortable boots does not equate to an illegal farmworker.

    2. Tia Will

      TBD

      “he idea that these are primarily children is laughable: many are older teenagers and young men coming here to work illegally. Many come from countries that are economically in the middle of the pack (i.e., Mexico). Some are even gang members.”

      I have no problem at all with an investigative process to decide who the “gang members” are and separate them from those truly needing asylum. What I do object to is not even trying to make such a distinction and just sending everyone back.

      “Is a 14-year-old child really “penilless” when the parents pay a coyote $3,000-8,000 to smuggle them across the border?”
      If the $3-4,000 is all the family has and it is being used to save the life of their child, they are certainly penniless after it is spent. Would you not be willing to spend that amount if you thought it was your only shot of saving your child from conscription or death and the hands of a gang or militia ? I know for a fact I would, and I would not let another country’s laws from stopping me either.

      “are you already aware that we have one of the most liberal legal (and illegal) immigration policies in the world”

      Yes, and I fail to see relevance since I do not believe that we should be modeling our policies on what other countries chose to do.

      “I guess you might make a swipe at recent Indian immigrants with wealthy families who buy their visa, but many of them have also worked quite hard.”

      I am not making a “swipe” at anyone. We claim that we base our judgement of individual based on their own hard work and accomplishments. However, as you noted, the children of the very rich are exceptions that we do not acknowledge. Paris Hilton is the example that I like to use. Her wealth has been inherited, not earned.
      Within our system, she has a right to it. But let’s not pretend that many in our society have their material wealth not because of any contribution that they have made personally, but rather on the basis of the accident of whom they happen to be born to. This is a genetic throw of the dice, not a measure of their merit. I find it ironic that in a society that claims to value rugged individualism, we have no difficulty allowing some to go hungry and homeless because their “cast of the die” was less fortunate than that of the Gates children.
      Personally, I envy no one. I have done very well in my life. But, I do not pretend that I did it alone. I was able to succeed because the human collective that we call the government was willing to invest in me at many critical points in my life. I would simply like to pass this on to those in need now.

    3. La pace sia con voi.

      So, are you saying the Indian or Asian or other “illegals” are okay, just not the latino’s? Really? huh?
      Also, you state:
      First of all, the idea that these are primarily children is laughable: many are older teenagers and young men coming here to work illegally. Many come from countries that are economically in the middle of the pack (i.e., Mexico).
      Some are even gang members.

      I doubt that many 8 year old girls from Honduras and Guatemala are violent, dangerous gang members. They are escaping gang members!

      “Is a 14-year-old child really “penilless” when the parents pay a coyote $3,000-8,000 to smuggle them across the border?”

      Even John McCain admits that thousands of the border crossers are CHILDREN, and their parents pay coyotes their life savings to get here. See McCain’s email below.

  25. TrueBlueDevil

    BTW, Cesar Chavez and Congresswoman Barbara Jordan were against illegal (and sometimes legal) immigration. So was Margaret Sanger, mother of Planned Parenthood.

    1. Tia Will

      TBD

      “Cesar Chavez and Congresswoman Barbara Jordan were against illegal (and sometimes legal) immigration. So was Margaret Sanger, mother of Planned Parenthood.’

      Relevance ? I don’t know any public figure with whom I agree 100% of the time. All “liberals” do not think the same on every issue any more than all “conservatives do”.

  26. TrueBlueDevil

    BTW, Cesar Chavez and Congresswoman Barbara Jordan were against illegal (and sometimes legal) immigration. So was Margaret Sanger, mother of Planned Parenthood.

    1. Tia Will

      TBD

      “Cesar Chavez and Congresswoman Barbara Jordan were against illegal (and sometimes legal) immigration. So was Margaret Sanger, mother of Planned Parenthood.’

      Relevance ? I don’t know any public figure with whom I agree 100% of the time. All “liberals” do not think the same on every issue any more than all “conservatives do”.

      1. Tia Will

        TBD

        To me, a rational immigration policy includes amnesty for those who are fleeing for their lives. This is a part of our law. Would you change that so no one could seek amnesty here ?

        Again and again you have chosen not to address the issue of separating out those who are fleeing for their lives from those who would simply like to be here for economic gain. My question for you is are you choosing not to address it because you would not admit even those at proven risk, or are you choosing not to address it because you, like everyone else, has not arrived at a good solution for how to make this distinction in an efficient manner ?

      1. Tia Will

        TBD

        To me, a rational immigration policy includes amnesty for those who are fleeing for their lives. This is a part of our law. Would you change that so no one could seek amnesty here ?

        Again and again you have chosen not to address the issue of separating out those who are fleeing for their lives from those who would simply like to be here for economic gain. My question for you is are you choosing not to address it because you would not admit even those at proven risk, or are you choosing not to address it because you, like everyone else, has not arrived at a good solution for how to make this distinction in an efficient manner ?

  27. La pace sia con voi.

    I believe the children should be allowed to stay, rather than return some of them to a country that has the highest murder rate in the world. Sexual assault is also high in their homeland, since many fathers have immigrated to America to send their paycheck home, and older brothers are being recruited into a life of crime. In some locations, few grown men are left to protect the women from assault. Often, the drug criminals threaten the brothers that if they don’t join, their sisters will be violated. Sometimes it is very young girls who are targeted.
    Here is a different perspective, an email I received from Senator John McCain, who I spoke with in Tucson:
    (I’m not sure why Senator Jeff Flake, (the hypocrital Mormon), and Sen. McCain used the word “safe” in their acronym. I don’t believe these young children will be “safe” when they are returned to those countries. They are, indeed, refugees.)

    “…Crisis at the Border

    Over the last few months, I have been deeply concerned by the humanitarian crisis that has unfolded on our southern border in which thousands of migrants (including tens of thousands of unaccompanied children from El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala) have surged across the U.S.-Mexico border in Texas to try and enter our country illegally.

    The truth is, statements by the Obama Administration in recent years have been received and distorted in Central America, where they’ve been interpreted to mean that if children make it across our southern border, they can stay in America. This isn’t true, and we must do everything in our power to send a clear message to parents that if they send their children north, they won’t be able stay, and they’ll be quickly returned home.

    I strongly believe that this crisis won’t end until the parents who’ve paid thousands of dollars to smuggle their children north see planeloads of them landing back home – their money wasted.

    That’s why Senator Flake and I introduced the Children Returning on an Expedited and Safe Timeline (CREST Act) – legislation that will speed the repatriation of these children to their home countries, reduce the long backlog in our immigration courts, increase criminal penalties on human smugglers, and condition foreign aid to Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador on their efforts to secure their borders and halt this crisis. You can learn more about the specific provisions of our bill here …”

  28. La pace sia con voi.

    I believe the children should be allowed to stay, rather than return some of them to a country that has the highest murder rate in the world. Sexual assault is also high in their homeland, since many fathers have immigrated to America to send their paycheck home, and older brothers are being recruited into a life of crime. In some locations, few grown men are left to protect the women from assault. Often, the drug criminals threaten the brothers that if they don’t join, their sisters will be violated. Sometimes it is very young girls who are targeted.
    Here is a different perspective, an email I received from Senator John McCain, who I spoke with in Tucson:
    (I’m not sure why Senator Jeff Flake, (the hypocrital Mormon), and Sen. McCain used the word “safe” in their acronym. I don’t believe these young children will be “safe” when they are returned to those countries. They are, indeed, refugees.)

    “…Crisis at the Border

    Over the last few months, I have been deeply concerned by the humanitarian crisis that has unfolded on our southern border in which thousands of migrants (including tens of thousands of unaccompanied children from El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala) have surged across the U.S.-Mexico border in Texas to try and enter our country illegally.

    The truth is, statements by the Obama Administration in recent years have been received and distorted in Central America, where they’ve been interpreted to mean that if children make it across our southern border, they can stay in America. This isn’t true, and we must do everything in our power to send a clear message to parents that if they send their children north, they won’t be able stay, and they’ll be quickly returned home.

    I strongly believe that this crisis won’t end until the parents who’ve paid thousands of dollars to smuggle their children north see planeloads of them landing back home – their money wasted.

    That’s why Senator Flake and I introduced the Children Returning on an Expedited and Safe Timeline (CREST Act) – legislation that will speed the repatriation of these children to their home countries, reduce the long backlog in our immigration courts, increase criminal penalties on human smugglers, and condition foreign aid to Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador on their efforts to secure their borders and halt this crisis. You can learn more about the specific provisions of our bill here …”

  29. Tia Will

    La pace

    From meeting many, many immigrants both legal and illegal in health care settings over many years, I share your perspective on what “safety” really means for many ( not all) of those attempting entry.

  30. Tia Will

    La pace

    From meeting many, many immigrants both legal and illegal in health care settings over many years, I share your perspective on what “safety” really means for many ( not all) of those attempting entry.

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