Commentary: Victim’s Son Responds to Billingsley Polemic and Restores Our Faith

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We were stunned and appalled when Lloyd Billingsley, a journalist and would-be author of a book on Daniel Marsh, wrote an overly-sensational column that likened Daniel Marsh to a “superpredator” and suggested a “Maupin’s Law” to prevent such convicted juveniles from being eligible for parole.

In part we were stunned because he alluded to support from the victim’s family, but the victim’s family, namely Mary Northup and Robert Northup, both in the press and at the Vanguard Event last year where they received an award on behalf of their father, was very careful to note that Oliver Northup and his wife Claudia Maupin would not have been approving of a revenge scenario.

The level of pain was evident last November, a full six months after the tragedy, and it must have been very difficult for Robert Northup to write the response he did. But we are glad he did, because it restores our faith.

He writes that the evidence revealed during the murder trial provides us all with many “teachable moments.” And he wants to believe that this double homicide “might somehow result in something more than just a horrible tragedy.”

He writes, “The guest opinion piece by Lloyd Billingsley, published Tuesday, suggests that one of those lessons was to show the need for ‘Maupin’s Law.’ The purpose of the suggested law would be to ensure maximum punishment for juveniles, with no special compassion offered on the basis of their young age.”

Mr. Northup responds, “I knew Claudia well enough to say with certainty that she would be horrified to have her name and legacy associated with such a thing.”

Instead, he focused on our biggest global concern – the “systemic failure at many levels.” He believes, “This was an entirely preventable tragedy. If we truly want to honor Claudia Maupin, an angel who walked this Earth, I would hope that ‘Maupin’s Law’ would accomplish more than revenge. If such a law facilitated the prevention of similar tragedies in the future, something positive might be derived from this horrible nightmare.”

Instead, he proposes Maupin’s Law, version 2.0, which “would make it easier to share the information with appropriate authorities when someone makes explicit threats of homicide.”

He notes, “One of the more disturbing revelations that arose during the trial was to learn that mental health professionals are legally prevented from breaching confidentiality regarding threats of homicide, at least until a dangerously high threshold has been exceeded.

“Daniel Marsh’s repeated expressions of his intention to kill someone did not meet the threshold, as he did not provide the names of any specific persons to be murdered. And he couldn’t have, because he didn’t even know the names of his victims until after he ‘made the news.’ ”

Mr. Northup continues, “We will never know if such a law would have been enough to stop Daniel Marsh before it was already too late,” he continues. “However, we do know that multiple people whose job is to assist with mental health issues heard this teenager make explicit announcements about his intention to commit murder.”

Robert Northup writes, “The kind of ‘Maupin’s Law’ that truly honors her legacy might have at least made it legal for them to share this information with each other, and with the police.”

“There are millions of American teenagers who suffer from depression, and who feel so awful about life that they often contemplate suicide,” he continued. “On the other hand, I would like to believe that there aren’t more than a few hundred such teenagers who constantly obsess on homicidal thoughts, study serial killers as role models, and who would experience extreme joy from torturing and mutilating an actual human being.”

Mr. Northup notes, “It could be argued that our mental health system failed on multiple levels in the case of Daniel Marsh. But it was through no fault of their own that therapists, counselors, etc., had their hands tied by laws governing confidentiality.

“If we are going to attach the name of someone as wonderful as Claudia Maupin to any new law, I would hope it is a law that helps to prevent such tragedies from occurring in the first place, and not simply a way to make it possible to punish juveniles as severely as possible after they have already murdered someone,” he concludes.

We agree with Robert Northup that this was a preventable tragedy. Lloyd Billingsley damaged our sensibilities by seeming to want to profit off this tragedy and sensationalize it.

Mr. Billingsley clearly misrepresented the views and wishes of the family as he wrote, “Northup, 87, was a lawyer and staunch death-penalty opponent who would have been the first to defend the teen. Marsh took Northup’s life, and Maupin’s, but under current law Marsh not only preserves his own life but someday could be paroled and walk free again. That strikes some friends and relatives of the victims as an injustice.”

Mr. Billingsley continued, “They wonder if juveniles tried as adults and duly convicted of first-degree murder should also be subject to adult penalties such as life without possibility of parole.” He added, “A ‘Maupin’s Law’ along those lines could draw a measure of reform from one of the worse violent crimes in California history.”

Back in 2013, Mary Northup said, “My dad would say, ‘At 16, they should know better, but they can’t think clearly…  If this person did it, they need to make compensation, or get better if this is someone who needs mental health help.

“But I’m not into revenge, and I don’t think my father would be into revenge,” she added.

Mr. Billingsley had his own agenda to profit off Daniel Marsh as a monster and a “superpredator,” and to suggest rolling back a law signed just two years ago by Governor Brown that banned life without parole for juveniles.

Back in June of 2013, we wrote in a commentary following the arrest of Daniel Marsh: “If this young man indeed ends up being the killer, this is a failure of our system.  This time it is our failure, our system, our schools that perhaps did not read the warning signs in the right way and find help for a kid who may have been ready to snap.

“We have a culture of bullying and depression, and we still do not do enough to help those troubled kids when there is still a chance,” we wrote at the time. “We are still, in many ways, a community in deep denial about a group of our young people who do not make it through the system unscathed.  So yes, we did not want this to be one of our own, but now that we realize it might well be, we need to wake up and start dealing with real problems.”

Dr. Steve Nowicki, who specializes in pediatric developmental behavior, illustrates the problem here when he writes, “Reading this testimony has me furious. This is one case in which there are three victims. This testimony illustrates the need for our community to take pediatric mental health, childhood trauma and child development extremely seriously.

“The Black Box Warning is most important in the first weeks of starting any SSRI as it can cause ‘activation’ which may appear as irritability, increased energy and even the energy to attempt a suicide already contemplated as a result of major depression. It is clear that depression is the root of suicide and SSRIs are quite effective in treating depression. The irritability can persist and that prompts a change in medication, a reevaluation of the diagnosis and intensification of therapy.

“The real issue is the lack of coordination and the obvious lack of patient ownership that should be the cornerstone of a good physician,” he continues. “It is unrealistic to think that we should rely on a school psychologist in this situation and there should have been more immediate response by his psychiatrist.”

Robert Northup restores our faith. During a time of immense hardship, he reached out again to correct the record. This horrible tragedy has left a void in our community and we need to heal.

—David M. Greenwald reporting

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About The Author

David Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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103 thoughts on “Commentary: Victim’s Son Responds to Billingsley Polemic and Restores Our Faith”

  1. Tia Will

    ““If we are going to attach the name of someone as wonderful as Claudia Maupin to any new law, I would hope it is a law that helps to prevent such tragedies from occurring in the first place, and not simply a way to make it possible to punish juveniles as severely as possible after they have already murdered someone,” he concludes.”

    What a wonderful perspective.

    What I would hope that we could do as a community to honor Claudia Maupin and Chip Northrup would not necessarily be a law, but rather an increased awareness that it is incumbent upon all of us to never assume that dangerous or threatening comments that we are hearing are mere fantasies, or that what we are seeing is just
    “kid stuff” or harmless behavior. If we see something that we feel is “not right” such as episodes of unresponsiveness or obsessive behaviors we should take it upon ourselves to go that one step further and escalate the observation to an individual who can help such as the individual themselves, or a parent, or a medical professional or trusted authority. Taking responsibility for acting on our concerns should be something that we enable all members of our society to do as a normal part of their participation in our community. If this takes changing the law, we should do so. If it entails heightened awareness, we should focus on information, training and making the community aware of available resources for help. If those community resources need strengthening, we should focus efforts on providing increased help. There are many opportunities for improvement here. I do not see revenge taken on obviously ill children or adolescents as one of them.

  2. Davis Progressive

    when you read comments like the ones coming from mr. northup, i think it puts in context all of the hate.

    as an aside, i was really taken aback by the front page photo on the davis enterprise showing some family members celebrating – that’s not only insensitive by them, it’s really troubling for the newspaper.

    1. Tia Will

      DP

      I had not seen the photo. This is my reaction.
      I find this photo very disturbing. Much of this case has hinged around the lack of compassion demonstrated by Mr. Marsh for his victims. What I see is a lack of compassion for one very ill young man and his family who are doubtless grieving just as this family is grieving their loss.

    2. Barack Palin

      “that’s not only insensitive by them, it’s really troubling for the newspaper.”

      I have no problem with them celebrating or the newspaper showing the photo. They’ve been through a lot and finally getting some justice for the “insensitive” killing of their family members is their just deserve.

    3. Matt Williams

      I too was taken aback by the photo. What was there to celebrate? Did the verdict bring the victims back to life? Did the verdict illuminate a plan for restoring mental health to Daniel Marsh?

      Barack Palin has suggested in his comment above that some sort of healing/closure can happen through such celebrations. I’ve never understood that. Putting someone away from society is simply a “salve” that covers over the damage. It doesn’t “heal” anything.

      With that said, I’m not criticizing the people in the picture for the feelings that they have/had. Each of us process grief in different ways. My criticism is of the Enterprise for broadcasting that personal moment … and in the process trivializing it by assuming that the the population at large can actually walk in the shoes of the four people in the photograph.

      1. Barack Palin

        Come on Matt, you wrote “What was there to celebrate?”

        The Enterprise did nothing wrong, it’s just reporting on what happened, it’s called the news. It’s not some big conspiracy to “trivialize” the moment or assume that the population can walk in their shoes.

        1. Matt Williams

          Barack, the expression that “discretion is the better part of valor” has survived in our society for hundreds of years for a good reason. I never said the Enterprise was “conspiring.” I never said that what the Enterprise did was “wrong.” You are reading too much into what I have said. I said that the Enterprise was indiscreet and served no useful purpose by publishing the picture. I stand by that assessment.

          Newspapers cater to audiences. They look for opportunities to connect to their readers. In this case I think they made a decision that there was a “connection” with that picture on the part of their readers. I believe that that decision was a miscalculation on their part.

          1. Barack Palin

            Matt
            “You are reading too much into what I have said.”

            Maybe so, but I also think you’re reading too much into that photo.

          2. Matt Williams

            How am I reading too much into the photo Barack? The Enterprise chose to run it because they felt it would connect with their audience. I happen to disgree with their assessment.

    4. Barack Palin

      Maybe the verdict represented some closure for them. Who knows what they’re really feeling and unless you’ve been in their shoes who has the right to now judge them? I’ve seen a few attacks on the Vanguard about the family members and feel that anyone doing that is way out of line.

        1. Matt Williams

          Don, the issue is not the four people’s feelings. It is the public sharing of those feelings. I suspect that if the Enterprise had asked them if they wanted that picture above the fold on the front page of the newspaper, they would have said no.

      1. Davis Progressive

        i think matt captured my view pretty well. everyone responds differently but in a way that’s a private moment and not one that the community needed to see.

        i see there is a letter in the enterprise on this as well: “The tragedy continues as a mentally ill boy is sentenced to 52 years to life in state prison. I can sympathize with the family and friends being relieved that he is being held responsible. But the picture in the paper emphasizing the celebration of his fate seems inappropriate.”

      2. Tia Will

        I would not begin to criticize the family members for any feelings that they may be having. What I stated was my discomfort in the choice of the Enterprise to print the picture in much the same way that I disliked the portrayal of Daniel when he was first arrested. This is no different from me asking David to pull titles or pictures that I consider too explicit, accusatorial or overly provocative. On the rare occasions this has happened, he has been very receptive of my concerns.

    5. Dave Hart

      This is an overreaction to a photo. A photo is a snapshot in time and tells us nothing about what is in people’s heads. This particular photo could be more about the feeling of relief that the trial is over. Nobody has a right to interpret what is in a person’s mind or heart from a snapshot.

      1. Matt Williams

        Understood Dave … and agreed with respect to telling us nothing. The act of publishing it begs the question of what is in a person’s mind and/or heart. I personally wish the Enterprise had not “invited” me to go there.

      2. Tia Will

        Dave Hart

        What you have said is true. It is equally true that every one has a right to their own feelings about the images that they see displayed in public.

  3. theotherside

    These victim’s families knew them better than I; thus I would never presume to speak for them.

    However, I will say this. The amount of crime prevented by incarcerating criminals is immeasurable. How many murders have been prevented by housing Charles Manson for the rest of his life? One? A hundred? We will never know, thank God. I think “superpredator” describes Daniel Marsh perfectly and no amount of counseling or medication will fix what he is; a killer. Had the doctors been able to share the information they had, I would imagine the outcome would have been the same. This is not the ‘Minority Report’, some things you just cannot forecast.

    1. Davis Progressive

      while you raise a point about incarceration, one of the interesting things about the manson case is that he’s not an LWOP, he has parole hearings. my objection is less to the need to incarcerate as opposed to the ability to allow the system down the line make the call.

      1. South of Davis

        DP wrote:

        > while you raise a point about incarceration, one of the interesting
        > things about the manson case is that he’s not an LWOP,

        Just like he was the last time they let him out of prison to kill more people…

        > my objection is less to the need to incarcerate as opposed to the
        > ability to allow the system down the line make the call.

        The problem is the “system” can easily be gamed by people who know that “pretending” to find religion will often get them out early (so they can continue to rob and kill).

        I’m willing to do a cost benefit analysis and save some money on prisons to let a guy out who will probably steal from a Woodland grocery store or rob (and even burn down) a Davis house again, but I want to keep people like Marsh and Manson locked up forever not to “punish” them but “protect” the rest of us…

        1. Davis Progressive

          “The problem is the “system” can easily be gamed by people who know that “pretending” to find religion will often get them out early (so they can continue to rob and kill).”

          what percentage of people are granted parole?

    2. Tia Will

      theotherside

      “The amount of crime prevented by incarcerating criminals is immeasurable”

      I agree and would like to expand upon your comment.

      The amount of crime prevented by incarcerating criminals and by hospitalizing the seriously mentally ill who are violent and a threat to themselves and others in locked psychiatric units is immeasurable.

      It is incorrect to believe that all individuals confined in a locked psychiatric ward will someday be free in the community. These units are quite secure as I can assure you from direct experience. Hospitalization does not mean that the individual will ever by free, but does represent a better chance for appropriate treatment than does a prison setting.

  4. Rich RifkinWDE 73

    I strongly agree with Robert Northrup’s op-ed. What he is calling for in his “Maupin’s Law 2.0” is in line with Laura’s Law. A big problem in our system, which he has identified, is the mistakenly high bar for a mental health therapist to report a client who may be dangerous. Daniel Marsh told his therapist he fantasized about murdering people. Yet that was insufficient, under the present standard of confidentiality, to require, or even allow, his therapist to inform law enforcement or the courts.

    What should be done, in my view, and I infer in the view of Robert Northrup, is, when a mental health patient expresses very violent fantasies, like killing people or in some other way gravely endangering them, even if the targets are unclear, the therapist should be required to report this fact to a special agent of the District Attorney and the case needs to be taken ASAP before a judge. The judge then could order an independent evaluation and see what, if any, treatment options are best.

    Had this been done in the Marsh case, it’s possible (though of course not certain) that Mr. Northrup and Ms. Maupin would be alive today, and Daniel Marsh would be facing a far better future.

    1. Rich RifkinWDE 73

      report this fact to a special agent of the District Attorney

      My idea is that one deputy DA would be specially trained to handle these cases and over time would have relationships with most of the mental health professionals in the county. Alternatively, it may be better to have such a special agent work under the Public Guardian, insofar as any court intervention would be taken on behalf of the best interests of a mental health patient and the PG’s office might be best served to serve the client.

    2. Davis Progressive

      i’m in agreement with you. clearly the system needs to identify people with these problems. now where i may differ is how to deal with them. i don’t think a district attorney’s office is the appropriate early intervention (which is what you’re calling for) agency. i think you need to get it into the hands of the mental health professionals not someone who could use the information to later prosecute.

    3. Frankly

      But you are making the case that Daniel Marsh was a mental health patient, and not just someone that developed a lust for murder.

      Are all people that develop a lust for murder mental health patients? I think that is a very slippery slope.

      Are all ISIS fighters mental health patients?

      1. Rich RifkinWDE 73

        Frankly, what we do know now about Daniel Marsh is that he was a mental health patient. (I don’t know exactly what his diagnosis was.) And we now know that he told his psychiatrist that he fantasized about killing and torturing people, as well as suicidal thoughts.

        Regardless of any slippery slope after the fact of the crime, we need to think about what we do beforehand when a mental health professional has information of this sort. Currently, unless he names a specific victim or he says he is just about to go and kill, psychologists and psychiatrists are not allowed to break a client’s confidence.

        What I believe in cases like this is that it is in the best interests of the client and of his possible future victims to bring this possible threat before a court–as noted above, I am not sure the best way to do that. The court, using the advice of its appointed mental health professionals, needs to assess the situation and decide what needs to be done. In most cases, the answer is probably nothing more than continued visits with his therapist. However, in some cases, restraint or some kind of forced treatment may be best. The court would have to balance the civil rights of the patient with the public’s rights to be protected.

        Again, this is basically how Laura’s Law works. I think the focus of Laura’s Law is on delusional psychotics with a history of violence who have some degree of anosognosia and for that reason will not take needed psychotropic medications. But that does not really fit a Daniel Marsh. I don’t think he was delusional or psychotic. I am not sure, especially given his age, how much insight he had into his own problems. Thus, in a case like Marsh’s, where the main reason to think he might be a danger to himself or others is expressing a desire to kill people or to kill himself, a court should at the very least be authorized to consider treatment options in order to prevent a tragedy.

        1. KonaOhana

          We also know these doctors NEVER discussed Dan’s case nor his reactions to the medications between each other. They admitted they had not even read the other doctors notes of treatment. Their egocentric actions are beyond ABSURD. They never told Dan, the patient about the negative effects the drugs he was given thus he would be aware of what these “contraindicated” reactions would be. These same doctors admitted they had not told their patient Dan about the BLACK BOX LABEL OF WARNING & further that this warming is the last step to removing the drug from the market as it being to dangerous for ANYONE under 25 yrs of age to take. It was acknowledged by these doctors they never warned him or discussed these reactions as possibly caused by these medication. They refused to acknowledge that these were reactions from the medications until they were under oath.
          I find it amazing that no one in this blog refers to the utter and total failure of the treatment of this boy. A 10 yr old when they put him on medications with a WARNING label, never telling this WARNING to the patient or the parents. It appears they proceeded as if it were vitamin C. With NO regard or concern of their patients health. Just another ##.

          1. Tia Will

            KonaOhana

            “I find it amazing that no one in this blog refers to the utter and total failure of the treatment of this boy”

            Actually, there have been many references on this blog to treatment failure. I know because I have made some of them myself. If I am understanding correctly is that you do not feel that people share your untempered belief that these medications should be banned. This I do not believe. My own son at virtually the same age as Mr. Marsh had his life saved in my opinion by the combination of intensive therapy, two hospitalizations and an SSRI. What was part of a lifesaving treatment plan failed Mr. Marsh.
            A failure such as this does not mean that no adolescents cannot be helped as my sons case illustrates.
            I understand that you have very strong feelings in this regard but incomplete agreement is not synonymous with ignoring the issue.

    4. tribeUSA

      Rich–this sounds like a good idea, with one caveat that could be pretty important: if a patient knows that he’ll be reported to law enforcement for communicating certain thoughts to a mental health professional; he may be more likely to remain mum about such thoughts (even mentally ill people generally don’t like incarceration, I believe!)
      Its the same classic conundrum for a murderer and the confessional; if priests are required to report those people who have committed or are contemplating murder; then the murderer is less likely to come to confession.

    5. Robert Canning

      Rich, if we moved the bar for reporting “very violent fantasies, like killing people or in some other way gravely endangering them, even if the targets are unclear…” there would be so many reports to this DA you envision that they would be overloaded very quickly. Let me use suicide as an example. A large, representative study of the U.S. was done in the 1990’s (and replicated in the early 2000’s) that asked (among many questions) whether the participants (ages 18-55 I believe) had had serious suicidal thoughts at some point in their life, and how many had gone on to make a plan, and how many had made an attempt. Fully 13.5% said they had serious suicidal thoughts. Translating to the U.S. population as a whole, that would be 45,500,000 people. OK – let’s say that suicidal thinking is about ten times more common than the kinds of thoughts you are proposing trigger a call to the DA. That would be 4,500,000 calls nationally to DA’s around the country. Let’s back up a step. What if the person had not only thoughts but a plan. For suicide 3.9% said they had a plan – that would be more than 13 million people to report – but if we take a tenth of that for homicidal thoughts with plan only, that is more than 1.3 million people. That is still, I suggest, a lot more than the system could handle. What you are essentially asking is to criminalize thoughts. When DA’s and judges get involved people’s civil rights too often go out the window. You are also suggesting a course of action that I believe would put a chill on people’s willingness to participate fully in therapy. And you are basing this all on one case. How many thousands of young people have had similar thoughts to what Daniel had and NOT acted on them? How many therapists have been able to help or get more help for teens and adults who have had troubling thoughts like Daniel’s. As one of the treating professionals said on the stand, they were much more worried about suicide than homicide. Asking therapists to anticipate or predict such a horrible event as what happened between Daniel and the Northrups is like trying to predict what the weather will be on September 30, 2015.

      I’m sorry, this is just going backwards.

  5. Rich RifkinWDE 73

    David and/or Don,

    I am not sure anyone else agrees with me, but I don’t prefer the way the comments are now appearing last first and first last. this is especially confusing when others reply in a chain. It simply makes more intuitive sense to me to have the comments appear in chronological order, first first and latest last.

          1. South of Davis

            When the change was made I was thinking that the only people who would like it were the people who read books from back to front…

            It would also me nice to use a smaller font so we can see 10+ “recent comments” on the main page…

      1. Highbeam

        me too…i had been hoping for a way to toggle back and forth between chronological order with sub-threads …and complete chrono order (so newest comments would all be at bottom for quick review – altho that view would not put sub-comments with their correct antecedent, and the “recent comments” on the side probably takes care of that issue anyway)

        …but this puts us starting at the bottom, scrolling upward – but jumping when we have to go to the start of a thread …

        i am glad you said something, Rich …i figured this was something many people asked for …

    1. Matt Williams

      Rich, Frankly, Barack, DP and Highbeam, thank you for the feedback. That setting has been changed back to the original. We are exploring more user control of the way that comments appear within articles, but as yet haven’t gotten an answer that will improve things.

      1. South of Davis

        Matt wrote:

        > That setting has been changed back to the original.
        > We are exploring more user control of the way that
        > comments appear within articles

        Many blogs and news sites let readers toggle between oldest to newest (and even highest rated after a “thumbs up” feature is added) so it should not be something hard for a developer to add.

        1. Matt Williams

          Agreed SoD. Having the ability to “like” articles and/or comments shouldn’t be hard to implement as well. We are working on it.

          To help us along, please share the names/URLs of some of the sites that do that. Being pointed in a direction always help speed the investigation process.

  6. Frankly

    mental health professionals are legally prevented from breaching confidentiality regarding threats of homicide

    I am guessing that we could line up all the people demanding that Marsh was found insane and those same people would voice opposition to breaking this absurd patient-doctor confidentiality rule.

    With all due respect to the victims and the victim’s family, although their views are important and demand consideration, a murder like this is a topic for the general population. It was them that were harmed, but it could have been any family. They were just unlucky… having loved ones at the wrong place at the wrong time. The perspective should be that we are all equal in potential harm, and hence we all have a horse in this tragic race.

    Mr. Marsh is very intelligent. He knew right from wrong. He knew what he was planning to do and did was profoundly wrong by orders of magnitude. He did not just make a singularity mistake, he planned and executed a plan to murder. And in doing so he lost his right to demand to be treated as a victim.

    It is absolutely aggravating to read all this empathy for a killer while also reading about new laws and legislation to give more power to the meek and weak to prevent them getting their feelings hurt… utopia will just not allow any jerkiness and the punishments for even de minimis occurrences are significant and harsh. But apparently go murder someone and you will be encircled with the loving hugging arms of those same thought and word police.

    Absurd is the word.

    I don’t know if Marsh attended church, but I would venture a guess that the number of tragic incidences like this correlate with the secularization of American society.

    Here we have even more absurdity.

    The same thought and word police that reject religion because of hurt feelings cause an pop culture negative branding of institutions that could have easily provided a salvation for Daniel Marsh. Did he know that God loved him? Did he have a congregation that would reach out to him and befriend him?

    If family is broken, where is the replacement loving institution for a child? Fix that and maybe we prevent the next Danial Marsh from becoming a murderer. But once he murders, he is no longer a child needing salvation. He is only a murderer.

    1. Don Shor

      I don’t know if Marsh attended church, but I would venture a guess that the number of tragic incidences like this correlate with the secularization of American society.

      Completely absurd. Completely.

      1. South of Davis

        Don wrote:

        > Completely absurd. Completely.

        I’m no bible thumper, but since I have known a lot of people over the years (of different faiths) that have been part of groups that have reached out to girls, boys, men and women in the juvenile justice system, county jails and prison systems I can tell you that a very small percentage of the girls, boys, men and women locked up in America have been active church goers prior to getting locked up…

        1. Frankly

          I’m no bible thumper either, but I have attended enough church and have enough experience with strong and positive Christian principles and congregations to see that Don does not. And without this experience he does not have the credentials to be so dismissive. But of course it is common with him to be dismissive when the argument conflicts with his worldview.

          1. KSmith

            Frankly said: ” I don’t know what the secular equivalent is… maybe just finding help on the Internet?”

            Umm….maybe other outlets for positive community involvement? I’m not sure why you’re insisting that religion is the only way someone can be restrained from committing violent or other crimes.

            There are plenty of other activities that can keep people busy, reinforce their ties to the community, and allow them to learn something about ethics and responsibility. To name just a few: volunteering (tons of opportunities around here that are not religious-based), participating in artistic endeavors (musical theatre programs, acting, art classes), sports, etc. (I’m gearing this toward young people, since the topic was Daniel Marsh).

          2. Don Shor

            I am quite familiar with Christian principles and congregations. And it seems we have been told now that Daniel Marsh attended church. So you can go ahead and retract pretty much everything you said today.
            I won’t hold my breath.

          3. Biddlin

            David Berkowitz: Born again Christian(Before joining organised Satanic cult)

            Dennis Lynn Rader, AKA B.T.K.: Strong Lutheran upbringing.

            Gary Ridgway, The Green River Killer: was profoundly religious proselytizing door-to-door, reading the Bible aloud at work and at home. Ridgway would frequently cry after sermons or reading the Bible.(He continued to solicit the services of prostitutes during his marriage; he also wanted his wife to participate in sex in public and inappropriate places, sometimes even in areas where his victims’ bodies were later discovered.)

            John Wayne Gacy: Strict Catholic upbringing

            Jeffery Dahmer: attended Church of Christ

            As Antoinnette will no doubt observe, “Christians aren’t perfect, just saved.” Still, not exactly a glowing endorsement of religiosity, eh?

          1. Frankly

            Then explain the violent crime rate in Utah – the most religious, and Nevada – the least religious, Mr. Smarty Pants.

            I think your dismissal of this point is not only bigoted and elitist, but the over all secular left’s dismissal of the value of loving religion to the well-being of people is in fact causing harm to a great number of people that would otherwise be helped.

            The secular left is completely bigoted about religion and religious people… and since the media is completely left biased, that is the message in our pop culture. Priests rape and religious people are just bigoted against women and gays. Right? You know that is the narrative and you know you subscribe to it… or are at least you are gleefully unwilling to stand up against it.

            And so why would any troubled kid turn to a church congregation for help having this message blasted at him from every orifice of the pop culture media industrial complex?

            What other solution would you have recommended to try and “save” Daniel Marsh?

          2. Matt Williams

            Then explain the violent crime rate in Utah – the most religious, and Nevada – the least religious, Mr. Smarty Pants.

            Frankly, I suspect that the differences between those two violent crime rates is much more a product of how homogenous the demographics of those respective state populations are. Demographically, Utah is far and away the most homogenous state in the union. Nevada, not so much. I also suspect that the much more mobile/transient nature of Nevada’s population is a significant factor as well.

          3. Don Shor

            Tennessee has the highest violent crime rate in the nation.
            Your statements are absurd. Doubling down on it, as usual, just makes it doubly absurd. But it’s the kind of crap that secular people hear all the time. It’s the last popular form of bigotry in America.

            What other solution would you have recommended to try and “save” Daniel Marsh?

            I have no idea. IMO, going to church would have been very unlikely to ‘save’ Daniel Marsh. Religion doesn’t cure mental illness. I have no idea what his religion was, or whether he ever went to church. That’s irrelevant. There is no correlation between secularism and crime, and it is a form of bigotry to make the assertion.

            Per the FBI: The FBI’s latest statewide statistics offer a snapshot of the underside of the 50 states: where violent crime is most likely to occur. According to the FBI, violent crime includes murder, rape, robbery and aggravated assault.

            The Most Dangerous States in America – 24/7 Wall St. http://247wallst.com/special-report/2013/10/04/the-most-dangerous-states-in-america/#ixzz3F73ORuqE
            Rates of violent crime:
            1. Tennessee
            2. Nevada
            3. Alaska
            4. New Mexico
            5. South Carolina
            6. Delaware
            7. Louisiana
            8. Florida
            9. Maryland
            10. Oklahoma

            You know that is the narrative and you know you subscribe to it… or are at least you are gleefully unwilling to stand up against it.

            Stop telling me what I believe, based on your fervid imagination. It’s one of your worst habits on the Vanguard.

          4. Frankly

            Religion doesn’t cure mental illness.

            Sure, but then he was proven sane.

            Your dismissal, and general negative position, of loving religion as a solution to individual strife and social problems is a telling aspect of larger problems within the “progress” of American society.

            The point I am trying to make here is that the secular left pulls society away from the private moral institutions of traditional American culture toward something that they perceive as better because they perceive it is more “inclusive”… but this relies on public moral institutions that at best can only set rules and punish those for breaking the rules.

            The fact that you have no idea for what to do to help save Daniel Marsh plays into this point.

            We should all be working to promote participation in a loving religion because it can and does save people.

          5. Don Shor

            Let’s try this again. Secularism does not correlate to crime. Religion does not cure insanity. Going to church does not prevent vicious murder.
            You also have no idea “what to do to help save Daniel Marsh.”

            We should all be working to promote participation in a loving religion because it can and does save people.

            No, “we” should not be doing that. Religious people should participate in religions. It would be pointless for others to do so, since there are belief structures at the basis of any religion.

            The point I am trying to make here is that the secular left pulls society away from the private moral institutions of traditional American culture toward something that they perceive as better because they perceive it is more “inclusive”

            Nope. Again, you’re imputing things to people. Secular Americans run the gamut as to what they believe and what their ethics and values are. And, as it happens, secularism is a traditional part of American culture.

          6. Davis Progressive

            “Sure, but then he was proven sane.”

            he was not.

            first, in an insanity trial the burden shifts to the defense, so in this case, the defense failed to prove he was insane.

            second, sane and mental illness are not the same.

            third, the defense failed to prove he was legally insane which is not the same thing as other forms of insanity.

          7. South of Davis

            Don wrote:

            > Let’s try this again. Secularism does not correlate
            > to crime.

            True

            > Religion does not cure insanity.

            True

            > Going to church does not prevent vicious murder.

            No, but it GREATLY reduces the odds that people will murder (a very low percentage of killers go to church every Sunday)…

          8. Don Shor

            You have zero basis for any assertion that “going to church every Sunday” (or at all) reduces the odds that someone would commit a vicious murder.

          9. Frankly

            secularism is a traditional part of American culture.

            Correct.

            But it is also an overly dominant force in modern pop culture, and anti-religion is a dominant message and narrative for the left and main media.

            Religious people should participate in religions.

            I am talking about children. So you support influencing them toward a secular view (what the public education system does and the political left demands) and other views you would assess as righteous and good, but not to participate in religion? Why is that?

            From my perspective, here is this troubled young person looking for answers about himself and making up his own narrative from the influences around him. Too bad his influences were not a loving religion and church. I think much of American society and many youth would be better off with greater participation in a loving religion and church. But the popular message and trend is down with religion. Most Christian churches have youth groups and youth ministers that do marvelous work helping troubled kids and preventing them from straying so far. I don’t know what the secular equivalent is… maybe just finding help on the Internet?

            first, in an insanity trial the burden shifts to the defense, so in this case, the defense failed to prove he was insane.

            It was proven in a court of law that he was sane enough to be held responsible for his crime.

            It is only yours and others opinion that he was insane or suffered mental health issues that explain his crime. After hearing a bunch of expert testimony over a period of weeks, twelve people completely disagreed with that opinion. You are out of order on this, IMO.

            It is a common thing for people do to… want an explanation. Something that turns the monster into an easier to accept tragic human story. But many times it is just a monster.

          10. Don Shor

            Religious people should participate in religions.

            I am talking about children. So you support influencing them toward a secular view (what the public education system does and the political left demands) and other views you would assess as righteous and good, but not to participate in religion? Why is that?

            Secular people should raise their children with secular beliefs. Secular people would not have any reason to urge their children to “participate in religion.” That would make no sense whatsoever. They are secular.

            Most Christian churches have youth groups and youth ministers that do marvelous work helping troubled kids and preventing them from straying so far. I don’t know what the secular equivalent is… maybe just finding help on the Internet?

            Yes, but they don’t prevent vicious murders. This all has absolutely nothing to do with his religion or lack thereof. You brought this up for reasons that completely escape me. Secular people find their own social organizations, but — like religious people — largely get their values from their parents.

            It is only yours and others opinion that he was insane or suffered mental health issues that explain his crime. After hearing a bunch of expert testimony over a period of weeks, twelve people completely disagreed with that opinion. You are out of order on this, IMO.

            It is my opinion that going to church and being religious does not prevent serial or vicious murder. Many serial murderers were very religious. You are also, as noted, misconstruing what “twelve people” concluded about his mental state.

          11. Frankly

            Listen – ya’ll are wringing your hands about what we as a society could have done to help Daniel Marsh. Assuming he was not a serial killer in the making (and I think he very well might have been), and he was not insane (which appears to be the case), I think it is too bad that he didn’t have the benefit of grounding from a loving religion and congregation.

            AA routinely saves people using this same basis.

            His therapy obviously did not help… it rarely does. All the people that I know that see a therapist either quit because they didn’t end up feeling helped, or they have to perpetually see their therapist as some maintenance plan.

            But I get that I might be arguing with a wall here since you clearly don’t believe and likely don’t get religion. You cannot advocate for things you don’t understand.

            This was really just a debate for others to read and think about.

            Over and out.

          12. Don Shor

            Listen – ya’ll are wringing your hands about what we as a society could have done to help Daniel Marsh.

            I am? I don’t think much of anything could have been done, except possibly better communication between his care providers.

            Assuming he was not a serial killer in the making (and I think he very well might have been), and he was not insane (which appears to be the case), I think it is too bad that he didn’t have the benefit of grounding from a loving religion and congregation.

            Not legally insane, but I think most would agree he was mentally ill. Support from family and any extended group of individuals – religious or otherwise – could be helpful. But this is a long, long way from the Frankly quote of “I would venture a guess that the number of tragic incidences like this correlate with the secularization of American society.”

            AA routinely saves people using this same basis.

            AA is not religious. They’re spiritual. They’ll tell you that.

            But I get that I might be arguing with a wall here since you clearly don’t believe and likely don’t get religion. You cannot advocate for things you don’t understand.

            I ‘get’ religion and ‘understand religion’ just fine.

            This was really just a debate for others to read and think about.

            Actually, it was a canard.

            Over and out.

            Promise?

          13. Matt Williams

            Frankly, if you were arguing in support of spirituality I would be right there with you; however, I am a firm believer that Religion is a bunch of human-imposed rules mucking up perfectly good spirituality.

          14. South of Davis

            Don wrote:

            > You have zero basis for any assertion that “going
            > to church every Sunday” (or at all) reduces the
            > odds that someone would commit a vicious murder.

            I have not read the details of the life of ALL the 700+ people on California’s death row, but I can’t recall even a single person who was active in their church (I’m sure that there are a few, but that does not change the fact that they are “less likely” to kill)

            You can “say” that the odds are no less that people who go to church will kill a neighbor or even that church youth group members are no less likely to do a drive by shooting than a guys in the MS13 gang, but you would be wrong and the facts are just not on your side.

            I’m not telling anyone to go to church and I’m generally not a fan of real religious bible thumping Republicans, but just like it is a fact that registered Republicans were more likely than Democrats to vote for Romney, it is a fact people that go to church are less likely to kill than people that don’t go to church

    2. KonaOhana

      Frankly . It came out that indeed Master Marsh not Mr since he is a child being treated as an adult is Apparently intelligent. A child or an adults intelligence never equates to valid or good decision making. The ability for one to fully understand the result of ones actions this portion of the brain must be finished. Since in this case this development was 10 years into his future, this child would have been fully at the mercy of his doctors and counselors. The ability for ANYONE to develope critical thinking requires the frontal lobe of the brain to develope. We know from scientific studies this doesn’t finish growing until one is at least 25 to 28 depending on the neurologist one speaks with. The DA repeatedly referred to Dan as “this man” & other misleading conjecture to paint a boy as a cognitive man. His manipulation of both the jury & court room attendants is in my opinion a gross manipulation of truth. In fact that a child of 15 being on trial as an adult is in my opinion a gross negligence of the law. DA Cabral appeared to be out for “the win” revenge not truth not real justice.
      The defendant had confessed due to several cops& an FBI specialist LYING and misleading him for 5+ hours before Dan was coerced into believing he would finally get the help he knew he needed. There was never a need for a trial trying to convict if the authorities had been treating a child like the child he is and providing the mental treatment he so obviously needs in a juvenile setting. But it was apparent in the court room the DA wanted to perform. Using his stand up comedic talent for the benefit of both the jury and the judge during his closing argument was disrespectful to the deceased disgusting proving his utter disregard for the deceased and this child who was clearly frightened beyond all reason.

  7. Antoinnette

    Amen to Mr.Northup!

    His words tell me so very much about the kind of person his father was…I honor them both.

    I never got the opportunity to know them but my dad often visited with Oliver when he played at the park in Davis. He said he was a nice man.

    After reading the despicable piece Mr.Billingsley wrote, all I could think about is how much shame he brought to both families as well as himself.

    I’m guessing since we know they were a family of faith, forgiveness would have been first on their agenda had they survived.

    Not revenge.

    Interestingly enough while awaiting the train this morning I met a nurse from Northbay Hospital who told me they see an abundance of mental health patients often in crisis with not enough facilities to help. She also told me that insurance policies give a limited amount of stay time which in turn has contributed to the number of suicide attempts and/or deaths.

    I was enlightened since it was no longer a speculation on my part in regards to our mental health care system but a reality coming from a person who lives it everyday.

    Although, again, I don’t blame this tragedy on one factor but several.

    I am of the mindset that Daniel is on his way to being healed….and I disagree that he will be just as dangerous in 10, 20, or 50 years.

    It’s interesting to see people bring up the Manson case.

    The women who helped torture and kill those lives were called Monsters too…but to my knowledge they made a complete turn around in their lives, one even obeying the gospel, if memory serves me?

    Time has a way of helping us heal, forget and forgive…if we allow it.

    Thank you David, for writing this piece.

  8. Biddlin

    Is someone taking revenge? I don’t see it. I think most have been quite compassionate, actually.

    “Taking responsibility for acting on our concerns should be something that we enable all members of our society to do as a normal part of their participation in our community. ”

    Why would that require any change of laws?

    “…an increased awareness that it is incumbent upon all of us to never assume that dangerous or threatening comments that we are hearing are mere fantasies…”

    The Daniel Marsh case has certainly shed light on some deficiencies in communication among medical and educational providers and professionals. There are more than enough warning flags on record to indicate that he should have been under much more supervised care, long before he murdered two people. It seems to me that his parents and primary care physicians are at the top of the list of folks who dropped the ball. His own attempts to seek help, discounted or all together thwarted by his parents, are a most troubling factor in this sad case. I think any silver lining in this dark cloud is going to be very tarnished.
    ;>)/

    1. Tia Will

      “Why would that require any change of laws?”
      It wouldn’t. Nor did I imply that it would. Each of my sentences regarding possible improvements began with an “if”….that is because I am presenting ideas, not claiming to be offering solutions.

      “Is someone taking revenge?”
      I believe that our current law with the very narrow definition of insanity and the exclusion of the consideration of diminished capacity is based on a “revenge” or ” punishment” based model of “justice”. It is one which I believe hurts not only individuals, but our society as a whole.

      An interesting illustration of this mentality was brought to my attention recently. An individual very close to me teaches prison custody cadets about issues of mental health and illness as they affect prisoners. As part of the class, one of the cadets after a section on minimizing the use of physical force to avoid injury asked a serious question. The question was:
      ” why should we care about whether they are hurt, isn’t this all about punishment ?”

      I believe that this will appear to be a reasonable question to many of our community. I do not share that perspective. A person who has committed a crime whether knowledgeably or because of some kind of limited capacity does not stop being a human being. Custody officials and other prisoners should never be used as the defacto enforcers of punishment fueled by our rage or fears.

      1. Frankly

        Why do liberals demand revenge against someone uttering a word they find offensive, but then rise to oppose any revenge sought against a murderer?

        Can you explain away the absurdity of that?

        1. Davis Progressive

          part of the problem here is that you are assuming liberals are some monolith. are the same people “demanding revenge” in one case and opposing it in another or are you throwing collective guilt at anyone who you deem to be liberal?

          1. Frankly

            So you cannot explain the absurdity of that.

            Don’t you find it even curious that the left grows all hostile and revengeful against Paula Deen over something said a decade ago, and VG posters with clear left-leaning tendencies call out even nebulous perceptions of demands for revenge against a murderer?

            It is okay to destroy a person’s career and life over a word, but it is wrong to seek punishment for a murder? Really?

          2. Davis Progressive

            i’m still not buying into your premise or even that they represent contradictory ideas.

        2. Biddlin

          I can’t explain the absurdity of you trying to characterise ‘Liberals.’ It’s rather like Her Majesty explaining a self-service check-out stand. Liberal does not mean “ninny!” I oppose cruelty. Period.
          ;>)/

          1. Frankly

            Finally, an answer!

            So liberals just oppose perceptions of cruelty.

            So what Paula Dean said a decade ago was cruel. And what the mainstream liberal media did to her was not? Is not?

            I get it.

            Not.

        3. Tia Will

          Frankly

          “Why do liberals demand revenge against someone uttering a word they find offensive, but then rise to oppose any revenge sought against a murderer?”

          Not only can I not explain it, I can’t think of a single case in which this has happened. Can you give an example of someone on the left demanding revenge for the use of a word they did not like ? An apology maybe….but revenge: Please be specific.

          1. Tia Will

            Oops, obviously missed the posts about Paula Dean.
            I am about as liberal as you will find and demanded absolutely nothing with regard to Paula Dean.
            Frankly, what ever happens to your belief in individual responsibility for one’s own actions when it comes to branding “liberals” as a group.

            With regard to another of your posts. Facts are facts. There are a number of priests who have raped those under their care. That does not mean that all priests do so, but it also does not exonerate those who do. Again, individual responsibility, individual culpability applies to all, not just those that you want to define as “the bad guys”.

      2. South of Davis

        Tia wrote:

        > I believe that our current law with the very narrow definition of
        > insanity and the exclusion of the consideration of diminished
        > capacity is based on a “revenge” or ” punishment” based
        > model of “justice”.

        I know we have a lot of “eye for an eye” “punishment” people out there (probably less than a dozen in this left leaning town), but “I believe” that most people (even most pro death penalty right wingers) just want to be safe and lock up killers (the same way they want Animal Control to lock up a rabid dog foaming at the mouth that is chasing kids)…

        > A person who has committed a crime whether knowledgeably
        > or because of some kind of limited capacity does not stop being
        > a human being.

        I’m fine if Tia and some prison guards want to be “nice and gentle” to everyone that attacks them, but I’m also OK with the people that want to bash them in the head with a billy club…

        1. Davis Progressive

          “I believe that most people (even most pro death penalty right wingers) just want to be safe and lock up killers”

          i think that’s largely true. two points though. first, we have locked up a lot of people for a long time for much more minor crimes, i would have a lot less issue if we dealt with that aspect of mass incarceration. second, and to the point here, i still think there is a sweet spot where we can lock people away who remain dangerous but rehabilitate those who are not.

        2. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          And are you fine with what I am really saying instead of the words that you want to put in my mouth.
          I have agreed with everyone who has stated that Mr. Marsh is dangerous and needs to be confined.
          I have stated that I believe from the experience of those who I know very well who are employed by the prison system that this can occur with in the locked wards of the state hospital system as well as in the state prison system. The only difference is that in the state prison system he will likely be raped and tortured himself while in the state hospital system he has a much higher chance of getting care that he clearly needs. This is not my opinion, it is the opinion of experts in the field.

          So why given that both routes will have him isolated from society so that we can all be assured of increased safety would we want to choose the route that is doubtless the more brutal of the two ? Can you think of a reason other than an “eye for an eye” ?

          1. Anon

            Hinkley, the attempted assassin of Ronald Reagan comes to mind. He was allowed out on unsupervised family visits because his psychiatrists deemed him “safe”. The public outrage was so fierce, these unsupervised weekends were stopped. The problem is that if a person is incarcerated in a mental institution, it is the psychiatrists who decide when that person can be allowed out, and they are often far from objective, too wrapped up in trying to “cure’ their patient and prove they have succeeded.

        3. KonaOhana

          South Davis for a moment stop and consider it you had children or a child. And this child was through no fault of 18yrs own caught up in the I’ll treatment malpractice driven insane an put on trial for murder. Would you still be ok with this child being beaten, RAPED or bash them in the hahead with a Billy club ? These aren’t arbitrary assumed pretend tv show people. The people lives the lives of all those in both families are forever adversely effected to such a degree it will never be forgotten. This horrible even will effect them the most. Further this child you so flippant offer to be beaten is a real life boy now 17 but was 15 & driven insane by medications all the while the doctors ignoring his please for help and understanding. Then when an adult finally listened, or so he thought, it was a LYING and deceitful FBI agent manipulating him while still suffered under the effects of the drugs. The agent had told him his mother would be called and informed what was going on. Do you suppose this child also wondered where his mother was. Why she had not come to his aid ?

          1. Robert Canning

            Anon says: “The problem is that if a person is incarcerated in a mental institution, it is the psychiatrists who decide when that person can be allowed out…”

            This is not the case in California. In order for someone who has been found not guilty by reason of insanity to return to the community without supervision there has to be a court process. I wish you would stop distorting how the law and mental health system works in this state.

          2. South of Davis

            KonaOhana wrote:

            > Would you still be ok with this child being beaten, RAPED
            > or bash them in the hahead with a Billy club ?

            I’ve said many times that I think prison guards that allow rape and/or abuse prisoners belong in jail (along with the HUGE number of guards that are making HUGE amounts of money selling drugs and cell phones to prisoners). I also think we need to add 5 years to the term of any prisoner caught raping someone (or 5 years of solitary to any “lifer” caught raping someone).

            P.S. The guards have even been paid to get cell phones to Charles Manson:
            http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/02/hello-satan-charles-manson-caught-again-with-cellphone-in-prison/1

  9. Biddlin

    “Now we’re really relieved — we know that he won’t be on the street,” said Victoria Hurd, Maupin’s eldest daughter .
    Hardly seems like revenge. In fact it seems like a very reasonable and gracious response, to me.

    While Daniel has not stopped being a human being, he has demonstrated that he is unfit to live within the community. In his case, we are isolating him for our protection and housing feeding and medically treating him because in Western society, we have become more compassionate, since the time of Hammurabi.

    I worked inside several state prisons in California. This was in 1980 and the conditions inside were execrable then and surely worse, by now. It could be reasonably argued that a 52 year to life sentence is more cruel than execution. I think the chances are high that Daniel will not survive imprisonment. If he does, it will be because he becomes part of that culture of control by violence and intimidation. That is deeply troubling to me. You and I would probably stand side by side on the issue of prison reform.
    ;>)/

  10. Tia Will

    ““Now we’re really relieved — we know that he won’t be on the street,”

    I am glad that they are relieved. They have suffered enough. What is extremely troubling to me is that people could not have been equally relieved by his confinement in a locked facility available in the state mental hospital system. He would have been as securely confined while less likely to be subjected to as Biddlin points out is a culture of violence and intimidation instead of in a setting where he would likely survive and be able to obtain care which is simply not likely to happen in the prison setting.

    1. KonaOhana

      Tia
      I’m truly glad your son was helped by these drugs. Allow me to suggest you check out the sites I added to this line. The overriding conclusion by the doctors of psychology, psychiatrists, neurologists & other specialists that have studied the blind studies run are the true response is placebo. That what also occurs frequently are dietary changes & changes in sleep etc combine to be the true cure. Dr Peter Breggin has after 30 yrs of research & practice has developed a non chemical method of treatment talk therapy, allergy detection& other guidelines that correct the vast majority of cases of depression & other mood issues. He in concert with many others have concluded that in fact these SSRI’S actually cause the very conditions they were marketed to control. It’s not easy to accept. As he said it took him 14 yrs. Of observations and research to conclude his practice. Since he’s published a small library of books on various break throughs in treatment. As have Dr Ann Blake Tracy and several others. This work is actively suppresses by the drug cartel known as BIGPharma.
      Medicine must be done in a very tightly controlled supervised method. It appears obvious to me the treatment by Kaiser for Dan Marsh was anything but.
      Thank you for responding to my comments. It’s through discussion we all learn.

      1. South of Davis

        KonaOhana wrote:

        > Tia I’m truly glad your son was helped by these drugs.

        A friend had teachers trying to put his son on drugs and he told me giving kids in school SSRI drugs is like giving 25 year old guys in a bar beer.

        Not every kid that takes the drugs will shoot up the school but almost all the kid that does shoot his classmates will be on SSRI drugs just like every guy that drinks beer at a bar will get in a fight but almost every guy that does get in a bar fight will be drunk…

  11. KonaOhana

    I have followed this case and hundreds of others. To find the one the same consistent over riding connection.These drugs SSRI’S cause insanity, suicide and murder just like the BLACK box LABEL says. But far too many wish to ignore the fact these drugs are in fact the cause. It’s far easier to blame the individual to rush to judgment for revenge this rwhat is discussed in eaction I’d far easier to accept. Far more so than to even consider the plausible reality & accept the reality that these drugs are BANNED in several countries. They’re limited in use to only adults and allowed to be administered by trained psychiatrists not the low level trainees as the prosecusion called as professionals. Professionals that have NO training with these drugs, No knowledge of the medical warnings that ere 25 years in law suits to force the FDA to accept.
    This warning was not an accepted agreement by the FDA they were forced to listen they refused for 25 year’s as they were paid millions by BIGPHARMA to ignore the thousands of cases of suicides& murders of largely children.
    It was discovered the following, thru journalistic research. Dan did attend church his parents did take him to every doctors appointment. It also came out that the doctors NEVER told the parents the extent of Dan Marshs troubles. Kaiser treats 14yrolds as adults which is also absurd So be aware and be careful. Kaiser will not tell the parents what is discussed during therapy thus a child is left with NO ADVOCATE.

  12. KonaOhana

    Here’s great reference sites for knowledge of thousands of case like this one. http://www.drugawareness.org. http://www.ssristories.net. Breggin.com
    http://www.ssristories.drugawareness.org.
    Search for the International Drug Awareness Org station of YouTube. Their sites are also on the internet filled with research, cases, testimonial from people that have been through the serotonin nightmare of insanity and survived. A liver test can be done to see if your susceptible to the ill effects of these drugs, more so than others. Approximately 1/3 of the population has the genetic problem of inability to process serotonin this means one is very susceptible to a very negative reaction. Psychosis= insanity Ideation= constant unrelenting thoughts one cannot control of murder and suicide. The test is P450IID6 of ones liver enzymes. They should test every single person who is considering taking these drugs should have especially children. It’s indicative of severe negative reactions.
    There are several international & national studies that prove the only benefit SSRI’S have are placebo. Thus 18yrs best to take vitamin C or whatever. But never a drug class that is clearly so dangerous.

  13. KonaOhana

    Tia Will please allow me to add. From your comment ,
     My own son at virtually the same age as Mr. Marsh had his life saved in my opinion by the combination of intensive therapy, two hospitalizations and an SSRI. What was part of a lifesaving treatment plan failed Mr. Marsh.

    It appears your comment answered my concerns. Your son received intensive therapy.
    Whereas Dan Marsh was never given extensive therapy. Kaiser pushes group therapy as their only option other than an occasional monthly checkup. When patients present with needs greater and aren’t comfortable with group therapy their ignored. If the patient is susceptible to harsh negative reactions they’re given yet more medications at greater strengths. This it appears to have been the failure. Since Dan wasn’t allowed an advocate either a parent of doctor they expected him to self report while suffering from delirious mental conditions. It’s a horrible system.
    The evidence is flagrant abuse of meditations nationally. Or investigations found that EVERY SCHOOL SHOOTING since Columbine the active perpetrators were ALL taking SSRI’S. At first we were shocked but upon rechecking it proved out all every since shooting. Including Santa Barbara university and recently in Oregon. It’s becoming to occur weekly. This is out of control. http://www.ssristories.net. http://www.drugawareness.org

  14. Tia Will

    Frankly and KonaOhana

    I think that it is very important when looking at characteristics of any group to weigh the factor that you have chosen against other potential contributing factors. Frankly has chosen to focus on the secular influences in our society and claims, on very shaky evidence that there is less violence amongst adherents to a religion. I think that this is more likely due to his faith than it is to a factual interpretation of the number of violent deaths attributable to those adhering to a religious belief given the number of deaths attributable to true believers. KonaOhana has focused on drugs with the potential for harm while ignoring competing evidence that they can be helpful in some circumstances.

    The fallacy in this mode of thinking is demonstrated by focusing on another almost exclusive characteristic of serial killers in recent history. A superficial look at this might lead one to conclude that it is maleness in and of itself that imakes a serial killer. There is sound biochemical and genetic information to back this position since males are testosterone dominant and have a Y chromosome. However, in order to maintain this position one would have to overlook the significant number of serial female killers.
    Female killers tend to have a different MO than their male counterparts in that their victims tend to have been limited to family members, children or others who have come into their care in their profession of nurse or care givers. Would either of you be in agreement with me if I were to assert my “testosterone” hypothesis as the area on which we should focus our attention while dismissing evidence to the contrary ?

  15. Anon

    “We agree with Robert Northup that this was a preventable tragedy.”

    How was this a preventable tragedy? There is no guarantee that any amount of mental health services, supportive family, appropriate drugs or whatever would have made a scintilla of difference in the ultimate outcome of this tragic case.

  16. KonaOhana

    Tia Will your belief that . KonaOhana has focused on drugs with the potential for harm while ignoring competing evidence that they can be helpful in some circumstances.
    I did not say these drugs weren’t helpful to some. You indicated your son was helped & thats good. I mentioned many doctors have indicated the benefit these drugs offer is the placebo effect. That can be helpful by a margin. A margin that can be beneficial. However, blind studies, not my beliefs, indicated the other benefits turned out to be diet, rest, improved support systems thru intervention as well as other unknown issues.
    I’m glad for any recovery. However I’m most in favour of knowing why any improvements are made, not just blind faith.

    1. KonaOhana

      Tia don’t get me wrong blind faith in my comment means there are no blind studies from the Pharma group proving these drugs work. It is the public acting as the test rats. There are many published article claiming good results queen by the drug companies themselves. There are thousands of articles news stories doctors reports telling the truth that the vast majority of effect is negative. That’s why the BLACK BOX warning was put into effect. That’s the last step before a drug being removed from the market, which is what the FDA doctors recommended. However, the council vote stopped at the WARNING. This by proof of so many thousands of lives each year that are ruined by the Russian roulette approach. One life lost is enough but when there’s been millions lost world wide since 1960 that’s far to many. http://www.drugawareness.org http://www.ssristories.drugawareness.org
      http://www.ssristories.net to read some of the thousands upon thousands of lives destroyed by SSRI’s. It’s been proven there’s far more safe ways to treat depression and psychosis without the threat of loss of life.

  17. Tia Will

    KonaOhana

    I have done what you suggested and checked out your provided links which lead to a site which in my view is little more than a promotional site for the director Ann Blake-Tracey. Secondary links from the main site lead to promotions for her $145.00 withdrawal advice service, her books ( which she states in one Facebook post that she would love to give away…..but doesn’t ), references to online sellers of vitamins ( as though there were not already enough preparations on the market), solicitations for paying membership and references to her tapes espousing her views on studies that she interprets as showing that the SSRIs are “no better than placebo”. I am no defender of studies funded by pharmaceutical companies and was a key player in getting non solicited visits by drug reps banned from Kaiser in our region. However, opposition to the blind belief in the evidence presented by drug companies does not mean that I will casually accept the opinion of on line self appointed experts any more than I would accept the word of those representing the drug companies. This leads me to want more information rather than accepting any that you have provided at face value. So the question that I have for you is, can you provide direct links or authors names or journals in which the original research appeared. I would love to educate myself and learn more, but I have the distinct feeling that Ann Blake-Tracey is not a good starting point for me.

    1. KonaOhana

      Tia Will
      It’s good you linked to Dr Ann Blake Tracy’s site. That’s a step in the right direction to see that there are other methods of treatment. However to be dismissive of vitamins, proper diet etal is not beneficial to learning. Yes the doctor must make a living and demand on her time are extensive as she has led the campaign to force three FDA to pull these drugs from the market by her own private funding. As I assume you would realize to singly taken on this trillion dollar profit machine is difficult. It took her and many other doctors 25+ yrs to fight through the Wall of money and propaganda That supports the drug industry. Millions of dollars given to the politicians yrly to provide the control of our regulatory agencies they have enjoyed since Reagan essentially privatized in the 80’s make getting any opinion other than the opinion of the Eli Lilly’s of their cartel exposed to the public. When this alternative personally financed group is received with such a dismissive attitude it makes the prices even more difficult.
      Dr James Merikangas , Dr Peter Breggin are only two esteemed doctors of many who have also fought to expose this assault on our nation, especially our children.
      Look at the other two sites I gave in my comment Breggin.com or ssristories.net or from Europe http://www.ssristories.drugawareness.org these sites are loaded with thousands of stories, testimonials & links to people who have personally experienced not just negative effects but horrifying events that cannot be summarily dismissed.
      Search YouTube for ssri’s as well as the internet. You will find as I did an overwhelming preponderance of data that clearly shows these drugs are very dangerous. Especially dangerous to approx 1/3 of the population that has a genetic anomaly that prevents the normal liver function that allows for serotonin to be reabsorbed thus the brain can function normally. SSRI’S prevents this reabsorbing from occurring. This combined with the liver function the brain is soaked in serotonin thus causing the synapses to shrivel. normal brain activity stops. This causes insanity, a waking dreams (nightmare) state to be the new normal. These people one awakened frequently have no memory of any events. Others are tortured with memories of actions they had no ability to control.
      These effects and many others are published by these the doctors and many more. Try reading Prozac Panacea or Pandora. It was heralded as a great physicians desk reference by many doctors when originally published. Big Pharma has done ask they can to crush it’s circulation. In the forward it discloses many studies, & doctors both in the US & worldwide that are published to try and curtail & end the use of these drugs.
      Thank you for taking the time to look at one site now try the others. You’ll find how lucky you& your son were. A liver test for the missing enzyme P450IID6 foreshadows probable negative effects. It’s cheap and Kaiser show make it their protocol. They also should require the doctor to read each other reports when sharing patients as well as disclosing black box WARNINGS as well as any other contraindicated issues using clear plain street language. Not ideation, ( constant unstoppable fixation on one thought of murder or suicide with the ability to stop it ) or psychosis, ( insanity) etc
      I do hope you look into this sad story of death & ruination. Medicine has only been at it for less than 100 yrs. Natural healing with diet, vitamins, supplements of various kinds such add oriental medicines are traced back 6000 yrs with good result that out modern vitamin industry is based on.

      1. Biddlin

        Ya can’t argue with data and logic like that, Tia.
        I’d ask him about the moon landings and JFK’s assassination, but I think I know his answers.
        ” Medicine has only been at it for less than 100 yrs. ”
        Documents dating back to 1500 BCE found in Egypt show a clear understanding of diagnosis of and prescription for a host of illnesses. Naturopaths have killed more people than C.B. DeMille.
        Thank for playing. lol
        ;>)/

        1. KonaOhana

          Biddlin,
          At least Tia is open. Willing to discuss & share thoughts.Your attitude is childish.
          Modern medicine does only go back 100 yrs or less. The majority of out until 1939 was based on the use of leaches and cannabis in various forms. The belief of and medicines that carry through to AMA from the Egyptians is equally as absurd as your comments about JFK.
          To minimize the assault onto the mind and thus or society by BIGPHARMA to such an ignorant rant is beyond absurd.
          Try educating yourself with the 25+ yrs of research into this subject matter by the best minds in our world. Then perhaps you might be aware of the reality of this insanity. Otherwise jibes of insult RE your perceived reality doors no justice to reality.
          Good luck.

  18. KonaOhana

    Biddlin.    Your infantile weak attitude to new information is truly paltry.  To be so childish as to make these silly insults  with inferences to events in time as if to imply some other delusion proves just how childish and self important you believe you are that SIR is sad. You need to educate yourself. Stop Praying on individuals that at least are discussing data cleanly openly. I’d suggest your efforts to troll this venue is evidence of some very great lack of self worth.

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