by Tia Will
As these links are posted, I think it important that each be seen not solely through the eyes of the Daleiden group, which is conducting “investigative journalism” not through any attempt to answer the question of whether or not Planned Parenthood is involved in any illegal activities but rather starting with the firm belief that they are guilty. This group has demonstrated its willingness to engage in deceitful practices to “prove” their basic assertion. As full disclosure I want all to know that I am not, and never have been in any way, affiliated with Planned Parenthood. I do not, in fact, know whether or not any of their affiliates have ever engaged in any illegal activity. What I wish to do is to examine the evidence as put forward by the Daleiden group to see if what they are presenting as proof, does indeed prove what they claim.
So far I have watched the entirety of the first three tapes and have, on only the basis of the information presented so far, come to the conclusion that none of these tapes support the premise that there is any illegal activity in the form of selling fetal tissue for profit.
I would now like to summarize the interview with Dr. Ginde who is the Medical Director of the Rocky Mountain affiliate of PP. The previous interviews with Dr. Nucatola and Dr. Gatter were conducted in California.
This time I have more carefully noted the times for confirmation, if desired, and have starred my interpretation of the potential meaning of what is heard on the tape based on my experience in this field, to easily distinguish my interpretation from what is actually documented on the tapes.
Dr. Ginde states “I think a per-item thing works a little better just because we can see how much we can get out of it.”
* This is being portrayed as though it were the beginning of the interview and there is no preceding statement to provide the context in which she is making this statement.
* The taped portion of the interview is not temporally consistent with the actual interview which started in the morning in the office of Dr. Ginde. The segment first shown is actually from later in the day taken in the lab .
* The Daleiden group is attempting to portray this as a reference to how much money can be obtained. What is not clear in this initial segment is that they are standing in the lab having just been inspecting fetal tissue, and her reference is clearly to how much tissue could be retrieved for research purposes since several they wanted as much intact tissue as possible.
Dr. Ginde points out that if the patient miscarries prior to a planned procedure the specimen will be intact but not available for research purposes due to the tight time constraints for packing and shipping.
The Daleidin interviewer then states : “So obviously we want product that we can use. I think that the biggest thing is that we want to avoid paying for material that we’re not going to be able to process.
* Dr. Ginde has said nothing at all about payment or compensation. Only the Daleiden group has made any such statement. Only the Daleiden group has referred to the donated tissue as “product.”
Female interviewer states, “So compensation could be specific to the specimen?”
*Dr. Ginde has made no comment about cost, price, compensation or any other monetary consideration.
Dr. Ginde states that they would need criteria from the Daleiden group about what makes a specimen usable by their group.
On the subject of the suitability of tissue obtained :
Dr. Ginde notes with regard to different providers:“It’s hard to know how their specimens come out right now because it’s not like we have been looking.” This is supported by her previous comment in which she states that she does not know if she would recognize a thymus, which is one of the items desired by the Daleiden group.
*With regard to this particular affiliate in Colorado, it is now clear that they have not been selling fetal tissue. They have not even been looking at the specimens to determine their degree of intactness. Their director is clearly not familiar with the requirements of transferring tissue for research purposes and has to inquire what the criteria would be. This would clearly not be the case if she had been engaged in selling tissue.
Dr. Ginde states “We would have to kind of see the baseline of how things are getting extracted now, and then see if we could do any work with them to maybe be a little more gentle.
* As a practicing gynecologist, more gentle is good as far as tissue removal is concerned, since it is also more gentle for the patient as I have explained previously with regard to choice of instrument and technique. I can assert this based not on speculation but the knowledge that an intact extraction of tissue rather than multiple passes to remove fragmented tissue will be far better for the patient. This is the same procedure that is used to remove tissue from the uterus when there has been a spontaneous intrauterine fetal death, a common procedure which I have done many times in my career, so I have direct experience with this procedure.
Dr. Ginde states that with regard to all PP groups that the Daleiden company might be partnering with, “I think that we have to be coordinated with each other.”
Mr. Daleiden interjects: “To make sure that the stories are straight,” to which Dr. Ginde responds: “Well, to make sure that we are all saying the same thing and that the CEOs are all saying the same thing.”
*Coordination is done all the time in Kaiser by all departments to make sure that there is uniformity of performance so that processes run smoothly and so that the patient gets the same standard of care whether she presents to Sacramento, or Davis, or Roseville. This is only possible if the clinics are in communication with each other. There is nothing nefarious or underhanded about coordination of care, although that is clearly Mr. Daleiden’s interpretation.
Female interviewer says: “ We all know for example, compensation, I want to come in and pay you top dollar because I know what you are going to be facing and I want you to be happy. I want to make sure our suppliers and happy, so compensation, ok your cost is negligent . (*I believe that she meant negligible.)
*Again, the female interviewer stresses, as she did in the Nucatola and Gatter interviews, that she “wants them to be happy.” None of these three doctors have said anything at all about an amount of money that they want or that would make them happy. All any of them have mentioned is cost reimbursement for their services, not for the tissue.
Female interviewer states with regard to provision of compensation:“We all know that yes, that is what we are doing.”
Dr. Ginde says :“So processing and time, and ….. yeah.”
No mention of compensation for fetal parts is ever mentioned by Dr. Ginde.
Dr. Ginde: “Because even though we’re doing it through research, if it comes up as someone else is just doing it as a sort of business venture, it puts a different spin on it.”
Mr. Daleiden then says: “ Publically communicating it as a as a research rather than a business venture makes it look better.”
To which Dr. Ginde replies: “I may need to talk to Deb ( Dr. Nucatola). I do want the other Planned Parenthoods….I want all of us to be making the same decision. So if we all decide that we are going to do it outside of research then we do it outside of research. But if we all decide to do it under research, that we have a different path , that we know that we’re all registering and doing the same thing.”
*Note that she is referencing what someone else might do, not what PP does.
This portion of the tape concludes with Daleiden rep inquiring about the PP use of lawyers. Dr Ginde states that no one wants to be accused of selling fetal parts across state lines and that she believes that their lawyer has it figured out.
*She does not say that no one wants to be caught selling fetal parts, she states that no one wants to be accused of it. Daleiden agrees.
The tape then picks up in the lab with a specimen dish containing fetal tissue.
Dr. Ginde is able to identify some, but not all of the fetal parts. Mr. Daleiden has to point out what some of the issues are and it is he who is able to identify the intact kidneys. It is he who states which tissues are in high demand for research such as the brain and the eyes. Dr. Ginde is able to identify the heart, lungs and stomach.
*At no point in this tape does Dr. Ginde mention price, profit, or wanting any compensation for any fetal parts. She states clearly that the consideration is for time and process.
My conclusions from watching the entirety of this tape are:
- The Rocky Mountain affiliate represented by Dr. Ginde has not been engaged in the sales of fetal parts.
- This is the first time that this affiliate has been approached with the possibility of partnering in this way for the transfer of fetal tissue for research, at least during the tenure of Dr. Ginde based on her statements.
- Any words about the sale of fetal tissue were stated by the Daleiden group, not by Dr. Ginde.
- At no point in time are there any specific comments about how much money might be appropriate, nor is any bargain struck. The only agreement is that Dr. Ginde will discuss the issues involved with Dr. Nucatola.
- It does not appear to me that this tape provides any proof of illegal activity in the form of tissue sales and, indeed, might be seen as confirming that these have not occurred.
I remain interested in hearing your interpretations and will be available intermittently over the weekend to discuss any comments that arise.