Bar Fight Turns Deadly in Davis

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KetMoRee Thai Restaurant & Bar in Davis has long been a popular late night club with the college-aged crowd but often has been the source of trouble in the form of fights and drunkenness. On Friday night this scene turned deadly, leading to one 23-year-old man being dead, a 25-year-old being charged with homicide and two more at large following a fight early Saturday morning.

Assistant Police Chief Darren Pytel told the Vanguard that police responded to a fight inside the bar located at 238 G Street at approximately 1:30 am on Saturday morning.

When officers arrived they found a 23-year-old male from Southern California suffering from a serious injury consistent with being stabbed. The victim was transported to UC Davis Medical Center where he was pronounced dead.

Sources told the Vanguard that the victim may have been the brother of the bride in a wedding party staying at a nearby hotel. Assistant Chief Pytel told the Vanguard, “There are no indications the victim did anything to provoke the fight.”

The victim’s name has not yet been released by the Yolo County Coroner, pending an autopsy reportedly scheduled for Monday.

Assistant Chief Pytel described it as an active investigation, where leads have identified three young adult males who were involved in the fight. One male, 25 years old and from Vacaville, was arrested on homicide charges. Several search warrants have been served and detectives are actively looking for the two additional outstanding suspects.

Detectives have not ruled out gang involvement regarding the three suspects.

KetMoRee remained closed throughout the day on Saturday, surrounded by yellow tape as investigators from the Davis Police Department and Yolo County Sheriff’s Department worked the crime scene.

KetMoRee has long been troubled by late night violence, with at least one previous stabbing.

Meanwhile, Davis continues its string of murders. From 2004 to 2011, there were no murders at all in the city of Davis. Then in October 2011, James Mings was arrested for murder in a strange case where a jury would ultimately find Mr. Mings guilty of attempted murder, instead of either first- or second-degree murder.

Then there was the infamous Daniel Marsh double murder in the spring of 2013, where the Davis teenager stabbed to death an elderly couple in their Davis home. In May of 2014, a Yolo County jury acquitted Davis resident Quentin Stone, accused of shaking his three-month-old baby, ultimately causing his death.

In September of 2013, Aquelin Talamantes was arrested and accused of drowning her five-year-old daughter. The defense had argued not guilty by reason of insanity. The jury convicted her and she received a 25 years to life sentence.

Darnell Dorsey is accused of assaulting his girlfriend’s child, causing the child’s death in Davis. That case is still pending and the defense has argued that there is no direct evidence tying Mr. Dorsey to the murder.

Most recently Joseph Hein, 23, shot 27-year-old Whitney Engler and took his own life this spring. The coroner confirmed the murder-suicide scenario. An autopsy report released this week gave few clues about Mr. Hein’s motive for the murder. Although it did turn up a note detailing that he planned to take his own life, it did not specify why or the reason he killed Ms. Engler as well.

—David M. Greenwald reporting

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About The Author

David Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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170 thoughts on “Bar Fight Turns Deadly in Davis”

  1. Cecilia EscamillaGreenwald

    KetMoRee was a wonderful restaurant when it first opened in Davis and it still is. The food is delicious and the staff is very nice.  It was not always a night club.  The problems with fights and public drunkenness started when the night club opened up.  Perhaps it’s time to return to the restaurant with bar and discontinue with the night club.  It would be a smart move for the owners.  Turning downtown into a “downtown of drunkenness,” fights, and urination in public (which happens and has been witnessed too many times by residents) is not the type of downtown that businesses and residents want or need.  Let’s keep downtown Davis safe!

  2. Davis Progressive

    ketmoree has been a long time problem.  we have a city council that deals with banalities like basketball hoops and bikes in yards but has failed to deal with these looming problems.

  3. Cecilia EscamillaGreenwald

    Davis Progressive,  I agree that KetMoRee is a problem. Something needs to change and I think closing the night club while keeping the restaurant open is a good solution.  We are past the point of promises of tightened security.  One murder was one murder too many, so it’s time to take serious steps and put a stop to this now not later!

  4. Anon

    KetMoRee was a wonderful restaurant when it first opened in Davis and it still is. The food is delicious and the staff is very nice.  It was not always a night club.  The problems with fights and public drunkenness started when the night club opened up.  Perhaps it’s time to return to the restaurant with bar and discontinue with the night club.  It would be a smart move for the owners.”

    Let’s hope KetMoRee makes an effort to make some changes to protect its patrons.  If it doesn’t, it may find customers take their business elsewhere.  It is not as if there are not plenty of other restaurants/bars in town to patronize that don’t have an unsavory reputation.

  5. Frankly

    This is a Davis downtown problem that is strongly connected to the NYMBY, no-growth, change-averse population of Davis.

    With a limited supply of commercial real estate caused by the lack of city expansion to accommodate our population growth, with most of it forced into a small footprint downtown, downtown landlords jack up commercial lease rates.  Restaurants tend to pay higher rents than do other retail and so the downtown has been converting to be more food-service and less other retail.  But with limited square feet of table space and high rents, Davis downtown restaurants don’t make enough money for food service alone, and must double as night-clubs to make enough profit to pay their rents.   (And don’t get me going on the impacts that would be caused by the stupid idea to jack up labor costs from a local minimum wage hike.)

    The concentration of restaurants that convert to nigh-clubs combined with the large college student population has made Davis a well-know night-time party zone attraction for people outside the area.

    For most of us this problem is easy to ignore because we are either too old or our kids are too young to be downtown on a Friday or Saturday night after 11:00 PM.  But do yourself a favor and take a nap Saturday and head downtown around midnight… and you will not recognize your little village commercial center.

    The only other location in Davis outside of the downtown is the Graduate at University Mall.

    Davis, being a college town with a large population of students, is going to attract people from outside the area.  There isn’t much we can do about that.  And with a flow people from outside the area that come to party and drink, there are going to be fights and some of the fights are going to end up as tragedies of serious injury and death.

    However, I think we increase the risk of these tragedies by concentrating so many of these people into such and small area.  With more and more retail space converting to entertainment, the concentration will only increase.

    Ian Wilson, a 2007 Davis Da Vinci graduate, was nominated for People’s Best New Chef in Food & Wine Magazine.  But not for his work in Davis… he had moved to Portland.

    See the article on Ian in the Davis Enterprise: http://www.davisenterprise.com/local-news/da-vinci-grad-in-the-running-for-best-new-chef/

    As for the future, Wilson would love to return to Davis, and says he has “an immense passion for the Central California Valley. … I love Yolo County, and it’s totally a sacred place for me.”

    Unfortunately, Wilson says, it’s also an area with “a lot of the bureaucracy” that tends to drive creative people elsewhere.

    Additionally, Wilson says, it is very difficult to get space in downtown Davis to set up a small business or restaurant.

    So we prevent growth because we don’t want to change, and we cause the downtown to change to night-clubs and we prevent creative people like Ian to sophisticate and expand our local food-service economy.

    The blame for the death of this young man is 100% on his killer.  However, we are responsible for the concentration of high-testosterone and high blood-alcohol humanity that comes to our downtown.  This concentration increases the risk of tragic encounters.  Ideally we build more peripheral retail that provides a larger inventory of commercial real estate that caused rents to fall and a more diverse selection of downtown retail to flourish.

    1. Don Shor

      Well, they have had the same problems in Old Town Roseville, Old Sac and other parts of downtown Sac, downtown Chico, and myriad other downtown locations. And I’d guess the actual crime rate in Davis is lower than similar locations. A single incident like this really stands out here, but probably wouldn’t in a lot of other cities.
      http://www.krcrtv.com/news/local/chico-crime-rate-sees-big-spike/26149268
      If particular types of businesses are causing increased police service activity, they can be assessed for that, or they can provide private security.

    2. Alan Miller

      Frankly, your logic does not work.  Are you claiming the restaurants would shut down the nightclubs if there were peripheral business locations?  That doesn’t hold any water.

       

        1. Frankly

          No, I am saying that by adding more attractions around the city we would not concentrate the mass of humanity going downtown and lessen the risk of hostile encounters downtown.   And I am saying that by increasing the inventory of business locations rents would fall and more GOOD restaurants could succeed without needing to do the night club thing.

          The night club thing is not a panacea for these restaurants.  Their insurance is higher.  They have more damage to the restaurant facility that has to be maintained.  They have to hire and pay more staff to tend the night-time business.  They make money but at a cost.  If the restaurant could make a profit without the night-club most would close early.

          But I am talking about good restaurants, not the cheap student food types.  Some like Mikunis are the exception.

        2. Frankly

          When I was in my 20s in the 1980s I was in a band that played for several Davis downtown venues.  I fail to see the difference between this and today except it is mostly recorded music and not live music.  The difference is simply the number of people coming here.  Davis has about doubled in population.  The student population has grown, and the region has grown. Yet Davis has not really added much new commercial real estate.  The downtown is about the same size as it was in 1980.

    3. sisterhood

      “…we cause the downtown to change to night-clubs and we prevent creative people like Ian to sophisticate and expand our local food-service economy.
      The blame for the death of this young man is 100% on his killer.  However, we are responsible for the concentration of high-testosterone and high blood-alcohol humanity that comes to our downtown.  This concentration increases the risk of tragic encounters.”

      Hear, hear.

  6. Tia Will

    Frankly

    However, we are responsible for the concentration of high-testosterone and high blood-alcohol humanity that comes to our downtown.  This concentration increases the risk of tragic encounters.  Ideally we build more peripheral retail that provides a larger inventory of commercial real estate that caused rents to fall and a more diverse selection of downtown retail to flourish.”

    There are many approaches to violence prevention in our community. I would place “build more peripheral retail” near the bottom of a very long list. Some specific steps that I would place much higher on  my list would be:

    1. Stop defending male on male violence as a “boys will be boys” phenomena seen as inevitable, but rather as a manifestation of our violent society which can be moderated.

    2. Adopt a much stricter attitude towards domestic violence which is the root of societal violence.

    3. Stop viewing individual business profit as sacrosanct. Adopt a stepwise disciplinary action up to and including closure of problematic aspects at businesses at which ongoing violence has been a problem as suggested by Cecelia. On a personal level, we have stopped going to this restaurant largely for this reason.

    4. Recognize that population growth, both at the university and within the city will likely result in higher levels of violent and non violent crime and take deliberate steps to mitigate this consequence.

    5. Recognize and plan to mitigate the likely increase in violence that may be seen with increased densification and urbanization of the downtown and surrounding areas.

  7. Frankly

    Stop defending male on male violence as a “boys will be boys” phenomena seen as inevitable, but rather as a manifestation of our violent society which can be moderated.

    Who is defending it?  Anti-cop social crusaders maybe, but not me.  But regardless, this comment is largely a non sequitur as there is nothing actionable there.  You need to take it to the next level and explain what you would do and how.

    Adopt a much stricter attitude towards domestic violence which is the root of societal violence.

    I don’t see domestic violence being at the root of social violence.  Do you have any citations for that claim?  In any case though, again, you don’t provide any what and how?  Are you prepared to accept the adverse consequences to the people belonging to the victims groups that you otherwise demand more law enforcement leniency toward?

    Stop viewing individual business profit as sacrosanct. Adopt a stepwise disciplinary action up to and including closure of problematic aspects at businesses at which ongoing violence has been a problem as suggested by Cecelia. On a personal level, we have stopped going to this restaurant largely for this reason.

    This is where you demonstrate a stubborn disconnect or ignorance about how the entire social system works or does not work.  From where does the money come to fund utopia?  How do you first make money to pay taxes and to invest in new business that can pay taxes if not profit?  And how do you attract existing capital to invest in business without some probability of returns?

    This restaurant is fine during the day… it is only the nigh-club business where problems can occur.  And this restaurant is not unique in that many Davis downtown restaurants do the same.  How do you want this restaurant to change?  To stop being a night-club?  Then you would have to accept it going out of business.  Or would you support profiling at the door… rejecting people that look like they might be prone to violence?

    It seems to me that you are prone to deflecting responsibility for this problem with an irrational blame of the restaurant.

    Recognize that population growth, both at the university and within the city will likely result in higher levels of violent and non violent crime and take deliberate steps to mitigate this consequence.

    There is some truth this this, but it is more complicated.  For example, in this study the conclusion is that a concentration of people increase the number of person-to-person encounters that increase the risk that more will turn violent.   Now, one offsetting indicator is the number of “guardians” (cops).  So that is a possible assist here… Davis should hire more cops to patrol downtown Friday and Saturday night.  Are you going to be in support of that, or are you going to claim that cops unfairly target people are too heavy handed?  My guess is the latter.

    Recognize and plan to mitigate the likely increase in violence that may be seen with increased densification and urbanization of the downtown and surrounding areas.

    What do you recommend other than more cops?   It seems to be that your vision of utopia is stuck in a conundrum.

    1. Alan Miller

      And many more restaurant DON’T Frank Lee, and they manage to stay in business.  Turning your business into a nightclub at night and all the sin it brings is a choice.

        1. Dave Hart

          Seasons, Paragary’s, Sophia’s are three restaurants on my rotation that do not convert to nightclubs that seem to be able to stay in business.  It can be done.

    2. sisterhood

      “How do you first make money to pay taxes and to invest in new business that can pay taxes if not profit?  And how do you attract existing capital to invest in business without some probability of returns?”

      Frankly, not entirely sure if you’ll like my suggestion: Perhaps when cannabis becomes recreationally legal, it could change from an alcohol-based nightclub to another knd of club.  I wish most people didn’t need to do cannabis in public, recreationally, because I worry about them driving home.  Also are they dealing with the issues in their life that perhaps give them a feeling of a need to escape personal/society issues for a while, by being high or drunk? But at the end of the day, I’d take my chances at a dispensary-type club, rather than an alcohol based club.

      My take from a few years as a young partygoer who is now somewhat reformed but enjoys a very occasional wine/IP or joint to unwind:

      Alcohol based clubs seem to fuel sex-based arguments. The majority of the fights I’ve witnessed in bars, in my twenties and thirties (granted, 30 years ago) revolved around a man wanting a woman’s attention, or a young woman wanting several mens’ attention. Then the men start fighting over her, or the girlfriends get pissed.

      I recently asked my twenty-something CA son and daughter if much has changed? Sadly, no. I recently asked my other friends who live in Portland/frequented Seattle clubs before rec cannabis legalized,  if much has changed? No, but in the cannabis clubs, there is less violence.

      It would be nice to hear from some actual club goers in Davis, as all my current knowledge is, thankfully, second hand!

    3. sisterhood

      “I don’t see domestic violence being at the root of social violence.  Do you have any citations for that claim?” 

      I have no citations, only a gut feeling after dealing with over one dozen domestic violence survivors, and being friends with a woman who did not survive her attacker/boy”friend”.

      My gut feeling is that Tia is correct.

      1. hpierce

        Domestic violence is the root of some, but not even a significant percentage of social violence.  MH issues trump DV issues big time.  Orders of magnitude.  Just look at David’s “string” list of murders/homocides.

    4. Tia Will

      Frankly

      I wrote a short piece for the Vanguard previously about domestic violence as one root of violence in our society. I think that one point is probably so self evident as to need no substantiating evidence. Most behaviors have some root in the family structure in which we are raised. If this were not apparent to most who post here, we would not have calls for two parent families and paternal responsibility as critical to certain societal problems.

      The second point regarding the role of domestic violence in fostering violent activity within our society is less obvious and deserves support which is why I wrote my previous piece on March 19th of this year which includes a number of studies about the widespread negative effects of domestic violence on childhood, adolescent and adult behaviors. I do not claim that domestic violence is the sole root of adult violent behavior as this is very complex, but I feel that it is undeniably one root and one that can be addressed within our society.

      1. Frankly

        I don’t debate that domestic violence is a factor, just not a big root.  As you know a “root” is the very source… the thing that all else grows from? I think domestic violence is sometimes the root; but I think morale decay, poor education and limited economic opportunity are more expansive and more preliminary roots.

  8. Michelle Millet

    A few years ago my husband and I were having a late dinner with friends who we had not seen in a long time and were having fun catching up with in a local restaurant. The place was empty except for us, and the staff started moving all the chairs and tables outside. Then they started taking all the art work of the walls and statues out of the alcoves. At some point the waiter approached our table and said they were converting to night club and needed us leave, although, he added we were welcome to go wait in line, pay a cover, and come back in to dance if we wanted.  Needless to say we took the leaving option. (I was at staged of my life when my kids were so young that yoga pants and oversized tee-shirts were basically all I wore, not quite nightclub attire).

    This was the first inkling that I had that the Davis bar scene had changed in the 20 years since I had frequented it.

    I lived downtown when in my later college years, and would frequently patronize the then local establishments like, Mr. B’s, The Catina, G St. Pub, Froggy’s before it was Froggy’s (what was that place called?), late into the night, I don’t ever remember seeing a fight.

    When did restaurants start converting to night clubs in which violence occurs on a regular basis?

    1. Davis Progressive

      in the last five to ten years, places like tres hermanas and ketmoree have had night club style usages bringing with them drinking, fights, assaults, rapes, and now murder.  i don’t know that this means we shouldn’t have these kinds of establishments, but we need to be aware of it.

  9. hpierce

    Over the last 10 years or so, Planning staff has promoted restaurants in the Core, particularly those that serve alcohol, even pressuring PW staff to accept more and more ‘fences’ in City right of way, in order to serve alcohol outside.  They called it ‘economic development’.

    1. Frankly

      Davis’s downtown like most growing cities is becoming “old downtown”.  And most old downtowns convert to entertainment over time.

      The difference is that Davis hasn’t expanded with enough commercial development and so the rents are very high due to high demand and low supply.  And our old downtown is much smaller than most from a per capita perspective… thus concentrating the mass of humanity in a small area.

      A restaurant’s food and labor costs will typically absorb 60 to 70 percent of total sales.  The remaining third of revenues has to cover everything else, including lease, taxes and — hopefully — some profit for the proprietor. In most cases, the industry’s collective experience shows that the lease cost should total no more than 5 to 8 percent of the restaurant’s total revenues.  In Davis the average lease costs is more like 12-20% of revenue for the restaurant operation.  Then figure another 2-5% for other operational costs like insurance.  Those Davis restaurants that stay viable without a nigh-club reduce their labor costs and food cost percentage of total sales.  For example, pizzas are relatively cheap to make.  Restaurants without wait staff and without the need for trained culinary professional employees and without the need for dishwashers etc… they have lower labor costs.  With lower food costs and/or lower labor costs some lower-end restaurants can absorb the higher rents and still make some profit.

  10. Tia Will

    Frankly

     there is nothing actionable there.”

    I disagree. I believe that there are many actions that could be taken. Males ( as females largely are now) could be taught from childhood that physical force when angered or frustrated is completely unacceptable behavior. This could be modeled by all of the adults in their lives. This could be modeled in every family. Not our current model, but certainly possible. I never resorted to physical discipline with my children and know many other parents who have successfully raised peaceful children without the use of physical force.

    From where does the money come to fund utopia? “

    Talk about non sequitur. I made no mention of utopia. I do not believe that businesses whose profits are based on violence promoting activities, namely public intoxication with its inhibition lowering tendencies should be allowed to continue to profit from these activities once they  have demonstrated their inability to cope with violence within their establishment which is definitely true for this restaurant/ night club.

    To stop being a night-club?  Then you would have to accept it going out of business.”

    Hardly. It had not gone out of business as a restaurant. It was obviously profitable enough to allow it to expand its business,. There are many restaurants that have existed in Davis for many years without either converting to a violent night club or going out of business.

    And for Michelle:

    When did restaurants start converting to night clubs in which violence occurs on a regular basis?”

    From my completely personal, non data based perspective speaking only as someone who can hear the events at the downtown nightclubs from my house due to proximity, I would say that last 3-4 years have seen major changes in the degree of late night/early morning violence.

  11. Alan Miller

    About 7-8 years ago the sub-woofer and alcohol fueled night club scene came to Davis.  Lots of public urination, some public fornication, possible rape, mega drunk driving, lots of people coming into town from up and down the valley including a large contingent of males from all over to prey on inebriated college women.  The entire scene has gone downhill fast, in the name of economic development.  F-that.  I recently received a copy of a report from Fullerton that has a similarly exploding night-club scene and the assessment was that the cost of policing and other city services costs the city of Fullerton far more than it takes in from additional revenue from the night scene. Perhaps Davis should conduct a similar study.  I called the city once about the night clubs and was told by a planning staffer than night-clubs are not permitted in downtown Davis.  I have never been able to confirm this, but if so perhaps it should be enforced.  This scene attracting so many undesirable out-of-towners here to drink and drive drunk on our streets isn’t worth the revenue even if there is any.

    1. sisterhood

      Years ago I volunteered, in Sac,  with a CHP-based organization that gave free rides to drunk bar patrons. Does that organization still exist? Also, how is the tipsy taxi, or whatever it was called, doing?

  12. Barack Palin

    I see we have some of our local liberals complaining about the public urination occurring in our downtown due to the night club patronage.  Are these same liberals also including the public urination of our downtown homeless?  Or is pointing that problem out considered taboo?

     

    1. Tia Will

      BP

      Public urination is public urination regardless of who is doing it. The question here is whether we are providing places for those who do not have homes to have access to public toilets. The action is not changed, but the reason is certainly different, and if the night club patron is in need of a toilet, there are always those available in the facility they are patronizing.

      1. Frankly

        LOL.  If we had more space downtown, we could build some public bathrooms.  Or put up portapotties Friday and Saturday night and then take them away on Sunday.

        Go check out what goes on.  The kids stand in line to get into a bar, and then move to another and stand in line again.   They are standing in line to get into these small venues and they have to go to the bathroom.  Where do they go?

        The homeless urination problem is different in that we should not welcome people that don’t have a place to live to go to the bathroom.  We should have a supply of facilities and disallow any homeless camping and give citations/fines for public urination.

        1. Tia Will

          Frankly

          Go check out what goes on”

          I live close enough to be keenly aware of “what goes on”.

          Patrons of night clubs should remain enough in control of their faculties to realize that they should urinate before changing venues. On the point of providing enough public facilities, we are in agreement.

        2. hpierce

          Well, “public urination” if observed by minors, can result in charges, and possible permanent “sex offender” status.  [if the ‘hose’ is visible]

          I’d rather accommodate the homeless with public toilets, rather than over-imbibing college students.  The latter are deliberately making poor choices, IMO.

      2. David Greenwald Post author

        Since we are talking about someone who got stabbed to death, I don’t know how appropriate it is to have a conversation about public urination.

  13. Frankly

    Ya’ll making the case that these restaurants do not need to become night clubs (i.e., it is a choice) are frankly demonstrating your profound ignorance of the business reality.  I would suggest you actually go talk with an owner of one of these establishments before positioning yourself as knowledgeable.

    Tocus did NOT do the nigh club thing and went out of business.

    Get a clue folks.

    Rents downtown are high because there are few alternatives for other restaurant locations in town… because there are no other commercial buildings or land to build on available.  Supply and demand is a difficult thing for some to understand.  Sad, but true.

    The entire scene has gone downhill fast, in the name of economic development.

    Alan Miller, I am very disappointed in your rant here.  Usually you can be counted on for more thoughtful points. It is the LACK of economic development that has resulted in the current situation.  For example, I know of one downtown big downtown landlord that has currently put all his buildings up for sale.   It will likely result in more restaurants replacing non-restaurant retail because the new owner will jack up the rates.  These new restaurants will either be cheap food places that students like to visit and that have low enough overhead to make it work… or nice restaurants that adults would like but that cannot afford the rents unless they have a full bar and can keep it open until late hours.

    If you want to outlaw night-clubs you are basically going to have to set a drinking curfew.  If we are going to set a drinking curfew then be prepared to see good restaurants close and be replaced with cheap-food restaurants.

      1. Frankly

        Thanks.  Tucos.  See what happens when you go out of business… some of us forget how to spell your name!   I once had a Tuckus but that too is fading with age!

    1. Alan Miller

      Alan Miller, I am very disappointed in your rant here.

       

      Frank Lee, I a very disappointed in you being disappointed in me.

      My rant is perfect, like a fine wine . . . a fine wine served in excess by a downtown bar on a Thursday night (to the the thumpa-thumpa-thumpa that penetrates 1/4-mile in everyone direction from downtown until 2:00am), the patrons parking in my neighborhood to hide from the cops that they are driving home drunk, tipping over our trash cans and smashing fencing while they walk home, fornicating in our allies, peeing . . . wherever . . . and possibly costing more in city services than they take in.  Yes, a fine wine indeed.  You may consider it a fine whine, but then again, most of you safely tucked away in your suburb, not affected by the Davis Murder Dubs, unaffected by the wine, beer and other spirits doled out en-masse on our little Fridays, our regular Fridays, and our Saturdays.

    2. Alan Miller

      Alan Miller, I am very disappointed in your rant here.

      Frank Lee, I a very disappointed in you being disappointed in me.

      My rant is perfect, like a fine wine . . . a fine wine served in excess by a downtown bar on a Thursday night (to the the thumpa-thumpa-thumpa that penetrates 1/4-mile in everyone direction from downtown until 2:00am), the patrons parking in my neighborhood to hide from the cops that they are driving home drunk, tipping over our trash cans and smashing fencing while they walk home, fornicating in our allies, peeing . . . wherever . . . and possibly costing more in city services than they take in.  Yes, a fine wine indeed.  You may consider it a fine whine, but then again, most of you safely tucked away in your suburb, not affected by the Davis Murder Dubs, unaffected by the wine, beer and other spirits doled out en-masse on our little Fridays, our regular Fridays, and our Saturdays.

  14. Tia Will

    Frankly

    Tocus did NOT do the nigh club thing and went out of business.”

    You are conveniently neglecting to mention any number of restaurants in town that have been in business for many, many years without expanding into night club business in order to remain open. This would apply to any number of Thai, Chinese, Mexican and Indian restaurants. Perhaps a conversation with the owners of these businesses would be instructive with regard to how they manage to remain in business.

  15. Biddlin

    Seems to me I played with a trio at some dump in that location around 1972 or 3. I know they served pizza, because in the middle of a song, the house p.a. would blare ,” Number 19, yer pizza’s ready”. My buddies and I wrote a song about it.

    The bartender was strong arming us for a cut of our money. We negotiated a satisfactory agreement, after he realized we were playing for survival. Rents are pretty steep in your little burg and landlords are not big on improvements. I can well imagine the tight margin for a restaurant operator, trying to exclude the market with the most accessible entertainment budget.  I have often thought that it would be to everyone’s  advantage to create a Sports/Leisure mall, Spanning the river with a skywalk between Stadium and  Arena, West Sacramento and Sacramento, encompassing the waterfront and old Sacramento, Hotel, Entertainment and dining, instead of just screwing up downtown with the pet arena project. And have shuttles and moving sidewalks, No personal vehicles inside the entertainment zone. That might keep that dangerous “out of town ” element out of Davis and attract the chic, club crowd to our area.

    ”  If we are going to set a drinking curfew then be prepared to see good restaurants close and be replaced with cheap-food restaurants.”

    I think this is a real possibility.

    ;>)/

  16. Michelle Millet

    Ya’ll making the case that these restaurants do not need to become night clubs (i.e., it is a choice) are frankly demonstrating your profound ignorance of the business reality.

     

    Franky can we agree that the growing night club scene in this town may be causing problems that as a community we need to address, regardless of the economic factors at play.

    1. Frankly

      Franky can we agree that the growing night club scene in this town may be causing problems that as a community we need to address, regardless of the economic factors at play.

      We can agree that there are opportunities for improvements, but we cannot ignore the economic factors.  That would be really stupid, IMO.

      We can also agree that there are trade-offs and consequences for every thing we do or do not do.  We can agree that we cannot directly control nor effectively manipulate social outcomes without expecting economic impacts that in turn result in social impacts.

      You and other seem to want to crucify the business owners.  Sit-down restaurants that require professional culinary and service personnel and expensive ingredients are not comparable to pizza and family-run restaurants that cater to students.  The former have a lot more overhead.

      The primary problem is just density.  The density of humanity that ascends on a small 2 square blocks of Davis’s downtown two nights a week.  The secondary problem is the high rents.

      How would you solve the problem?

       

  17. Michelle Millet

    You and other seem to want to crucify the business owners.

    Huh? What did I say that implied this?

    How would you solve the problem?

    I have no idea, I have not claimed to have a solution. But before we find one I think we need to agree that there is a problem.

    I imagine that business owners would agree that situations which foster violence, and lead to the fatal stabbing of a young man in their establishment, is a problem that needs to be addressed and that finding a solution is in their best interest.

    1. Frankly

      Huh? What did I say that implied this?

      You said…

      regardless of the economic factors at play.

      To me that says you would ignore the financial viability of the restaurant in your hunt for “solutions”.

      1. Michelle Millet

        If this was your take away then you misinterpreted my comment. You seem so defensive of restaurants in Davis continuing a business practice that may have resulted in the violent murder of a young man, that you don’t want to seem to acknowledge that a problem exist with the practice. This kind of digging in does not lead to productive results, for anyone.

        I’m not blaming or trying to crucify business owners for trying to stay profitable. But clearly this practice of converting their restaurants into nightclubs will not be profitable in Davis if these types of tragic events continue to occur at their establishments. It is my understanding that violence outside these bars around closing time is an escalating problem in our community that needs to be addressed. Blindly defending the “nightclub practice” as the only economically viable option is not a step in the right directions for the business owners, their employees who depend on their jobs to support their families, or the community.

        1. Frankly

          I am in business to promote economic development through small business financing.  I protect all small business from harm where I can.  The restaurant did not cause the fight nor kill the young man. I disagree that the restaurant was even complicit in this problem.  I have lived here about years and there has always been bars with music and crowds and some fights.  If the problem is worse now than then, it is for one single reason… density.  More people crammed into a small area.   Your blame is misplaced.

          How about blaming city politicians that gave away the city treasure to the union members that funded their campaigns and now we don’t have the money to hire more cops as foot patrol to monitor the area?  How about the current politicians for failing to work hard enough to solve our budget problems thus leading to no money to fund creative solutions?  How about the NIMBY, change-averse, no-growth voters that have prevented any peripheral commercial development?

          1. Don Shor

            Since these problems are common to every college town, I don’t see your growth/planning argument as having much basis here. Is the crime rate in Davis higher than other college towns? Are the problems here worse than towns that have more peripheral retail? This is a very unfortunate incident, but I doubt it proves anything at all about Davis nor does it lead to any particular need for policy changes. I seriously don’t see how “peripheral commercial development” would have prevented an early morning stabbing outside a Davis nightclub.

        2. Frankly

          Are you up for getting a beer or wine or arnold palmer at midnight this Friday or Saturday? I will show you what is different about Davis and these other places.  Davis is known as THE regional clubbing zone.

          Did you know the time of days and time of day Russel Blvd. has the most traffic?  It is Saturday morning and Sunday morning after 2:00 AM – 3:00 AM.  The bars close at 2:00 AM.

          1. Don Shor

            I’ve been downtown after midnight a few times in the last year or so. It’s gross. If there’s a consensus that there’s a problem, the city council can restrict alcohol sales.

        3. Frankly

          the city council can restrict alcohol sales.

          And then put the good restaurants out of business.  Is that what you want Don… for Davis downtown to be all pizza, burgers and cheap Asian food?

          1. Don Shor

            No, it’s not what I want. I said, if there’s a consensus that there’s a problem. Do most Davisites care what is going on downtown at 2 a.m.?

        4. TrueBlueDevil

          Thirty years ago, what did we have? 20,000 students, The Grad, Mr. Bs, and then a few places to have drinks. Frat party’s. The now Froggys or a place near there would occasionally have live music.

          I rarely saw fights, never saw weapons. The Grad would get some Woodland farm boys for $1 a pitcher night (Thursday), but it was 1/2 the size of today’s Grad. I rarely recall outsiders visiting Mr. Bs. There was one psuedo biker bar I think I went to once, and AJ Bumps for the old timers.

          What percentage of trouble is caused by “outsiders”? I recall a number of troublemakers at the Whole Earth Festival were from Woodland. This alleged suspect is from Vacaville. We’ll see where his crew is from.

          Davis police and the city council could crack down on troublemakers / DUIs / outsiders. The choke points for a city like this is easy. DUI check points on Friday and Saturday night would probably help.

          Or, protect the status quo and expect more of the same.

  18. Frankly

    David – You need to go interview the manger of Our House and report back.  Also interview Ast. Chief Pytel about the issue.  Lastly, take a nap and actuall visit the downtown around midnight… and while you are out, interview some of the people doing the clubbing.

      1. sisterhood

        I have very mixed feelings re: releasing a police-only based name. The news may be that an arrest or an investigation is taking place. Rest of info, if strictly from the PD, is hearsay. (Lawyers out there, I’m not a lawyer, so bring it on if I have mis-defined hearsay…)

        I appreciate the Vanguard’s style of journalism versus the Emptyprize. The Emptyprize used to only report crime stories from the police reports. They seem a teeny bit better, recently, but I still prefer to get my news from the VG.

        Not sure I need to know the name of a suspected criminal until I know he was really a criminal.

        1. Barack Palin

          So you would only want to know the name of a criminal until after they were convicted in a trial?  Not me, I want to know the names of suspected criminals as soon as I can, not years later after the suspect went through our judicial system.

        2. sisterhood

          BP, Re: prematurely releasing the name of an innocent: Not sure I need to know that an innocent teen, for example, Damien Echols, was wrongfully accused of a heinous crime. He was, and still is, innocent. The news that he was arrested seemed like high-level gossip when this news story was printed.  Perhaps there was no reason to release his name to journalists? He was, and continues to be, innocent.
          When a really thorough investigation by law enforcement takes place, maybe then and only then is it okay to release a citizen’s name. I have mixed feelings on this subject.

          This example is what I was trying to say in my comment.

  19. MrsW

    Recommend an article in this month’s Scientific American entitled “Big Data Are Reducing Homicides in Cities Across the Americas” in the e-version and “An Antidote to Murder, City leaders across the Americas are exploiting science to reduce homicide” in the paper version.  In brief, a Harvard trained epidemiologist, Rodrigo Guerrero Velasco, was/is the mayor of Cali, Colombia.  Using data, a public health perspective, and an understanding of human behavior “such as the desire to carry guns in certain places or the tendency to drink alcohol on certain days,” in only 3 years, Mr. Verlasco’s administration reduced the Cali’s homicide from 124 per 1oo,000 to 86  per 100,000.  Other cities South America have adopted his approach and have seen similar results.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/big-data-are-reducing-homicides-in-cities-across-the-americas/

  20. daveyjones

    Hello Frankly,

    Can I politely suggest that at a time when you should be busy with your new restaurant in Sacramento, it might not be the best use of your time to get in endless arguments on the internet.

    All the best.

    1. Frankly

      LOL.  Thanks for the advise daveyjones.  I would never open a new restaurant… too much work and too much capital risk.  But I am working on a new business and the endless arguments on the internet will have to stop at some point due to lack of time to fight the fight.

      All the best to you too.

  21. Michelle Millet

    I am in business to promote economic development through small business financing.  I protect all small business from harm where I can. 

    Then if I were you, I’d urge the owners of the this business to work with whoever they need to, and do whatever they can to takes steps to make sure another tragic event like this one does not take place at their establishment, and I urge all the other make shift “night club” owners to do the same. (For all I know they are already doing this).

    The restaurant did not cause the fight nor kill the young man. I disagree that the restaurant was even complicit in this problem.  

    You have lawyered up haven’t you. Do you really think this kind of approach is going to lead to long term solutions that benefit restaurant owners? A young man was murdered inside an establishment, by patrons who apparently brought in weapons. I do not want to live in a community where this is considered acceptable, and I hope the owners of the restaurant feel the same way, if they choose to follow your lead I doubt they will be in business much longer.

    1. Frankly

      Hmm… if you invite in someone to your house for legit reasons and that someone stabs and kills someone in your house, that would be your fault?  I don’t get your train of though here.

      1. Michelle Millet

        I think you are getting hung up on this idea of “fault”. Just because a tragic occurrence  is not my fault does not mean I wouldn’t take the steps I could to help make sure a similiar incidence didn’t occur again in the future.

        I hate giving advice on subjects I know nothing about, but if there was a way to keep people from bringing weapons into “night clubs” that might be a good place to start.

        I wonder if sobriety check points would also help the situation. This may discourage people from out of town from choosing downtown Davis as their party destination.

        I think as a community we to explore options like this, I imagine the restaurant community would prefer these types of solutions over alcohol restrictions.  I would urge owners of restaurants that convert to night clubs to be part of finding a solution, rather then take your approach of it’s not my fault so I don’t need to do anything about it.

         

        1. Michelle Millet

          I’d ask the bartenders and the bouncers for suggestions. My guess is that they will have the best ideas on how to keep incidence like this from occurring again.

  22. Antoinnette

    Good ol booze and testosterone…I remember when fighting was only done with your fists.

    I am sure if they close it down, another bar will open around the corner. It won’t solve the problem. Too bad this world is more concerned with the economy rather than a human life….shame, shame. Another homicide in Davis, another young kid dead and still refusal to believe the real reality of what lurks beneath the surface.

    Yes, agree, Anon…..sin is a choice…..

  23. hectic

    The conversation here seems to be this binary argument where we either need to get rid of all nightclubs or do nothing at all; it is possible for a late night drinking establishment to cater to a certain type of clientele and crowd depending on how they run the place.  Blaring music and cheap shitty drinks are going to attract the types of out of town crowds that start fights.  Trivia night type events, generally don’t.

    1. sisterhood

      I used to frequent a happy hour on the Sac River- was it the Rusty Duck? that did trivial pursuit games. It was a blast. Not sure my friends ordered a ton of drinks, but we did buy a lot of appetizers.

        1. sisterhood

          Hi hpierce, it was off the Natomas area Richards Blvd. exit over near the old Monterey Bay Cannery restaurant & its backside faced a river over there…circa late 80’s?

      1. hectic

        Well, yes.  Events like that.  If you want to invite the gang bangers from Woodland, Sacramento, and Vacaville to your bar in Davis, you play loud s****** music and have cheap drink specials.  They won’t drive 30-45 minutes away to come to a trivia night, open mic night, or a live indie band.  This is not rocket science.

         

    2. KSmith

      I’m not sure what the clientele is like at these ‘nightclubs,’ but having done my fair share of clubbing in my youth, I do have to say that I never once witnessed any violence–not even a fistfight or a pushing match. That was in Arizona in the late 80s and early 90s, though, so the experiences might not be equivalent. The clubs did have ‘blaring music’ and ‘cheap shitty drinks,’ though and didn’t seem to have this problem.

      My experience with downtown Davis establishments extends to Sophia’s Thai (listening to music on the patio and having some drinks) and the G Street Wunderbar (listening to a live band into the fairly late hours). In both cases, there was lots of drinking, but none of the so-called ‘sin’ that has been thrown around.

      (And I do agree with the person upthread who said that parts of this discussion sound a lot like ‘Footloose’).

  24. Misanthrop

    There will be an investigation and if the facts as reported are true Alcohol Beverage Control will likely move to revoke their liquor license. There have been many police calls and violent incidents at that location and now a murder has occurred. I can’t imagine any other response by authorities or disposition of the matter. There will also likely be a civil suit and I’m not sure if insurance will indemnify the owner. Bars are generally exempt from liability but there are exceptions and the facts as currently reported might open the owners to civil damages. I don’t see how that business survives.

    1. Frankly

      I don’t see how that business survives.

      That is easy… good food and good service.  They deliver too.  You seem to be over your head a bit asking this question.

      Your post is the exact reason that I put so much time into posting on these issues, because there is a tendency for many people in this community to demonize business for the crappy state of humanity and the crappy state of the city that both contribute to the problem.

      It is a common and troublesome position to keep expecting business to fix what is broken by broken society and broken government.   I understand it coming from some people because it helps them deflect responsibility for their own failures and their own responsibilities.  Others are either ignorant or not putting enough brain power into an analysis of the situation.

      1. Misanthrop

        Actually you are the one who doesn’t understand how it works. Bars have special responsibilities under the law and I fully expect them to lose their liquor license. There have been too many police calls there and now a murder. Now maybe they can survive without serving liquor but I doubt they can do so in such a large space with high rent. I’m not trying to demonize anybody I simply know how these things play out. All this nonsense about them changing practices or it not being their fault that society is screwed up misses the point. A liquor license can and will be revoked under these circumstances. State Alcoholic Beverage Control will act to revoke the liquor license. It won’t even be local officials who are involved. They can fight it but they will likely lose.

        1. Frankly

          ABC can revoke a liquor license for commission of crime involving moral turpitude, or for for license violations… usually a history of them.

          Assuming the restaurant has not violated any of these, ABC will not revoke their license.

          You appear to be far in over your head on this.

        2. Misanthrop

           

          http://www.abc.ca.gov/FORMS/ABC608.pdf

          From the link above.

          “11. Disorderly House”

           

          “Licensees may not permit their licensed premises to become a disorderly house. A disorderly house is a licensed outlet (on- or off-sale) that (a) disturbs neighbors with noise, loud music, loitering, littering, vandalism, urination or defecation, graffiti, etc., and/or (b) has many ongoing crimes inside such as drunks, fights, assaults, prostitution, narcotics, etc. The licensed premises includes the parking lot. (Sec. 25601 B&P; 316 PC)” 

          There have been numerous problems there with many police calls related to violence and now a murder. The ABC will take action against them to revoke their liquor license in the near future.

        3. Frankly

          There have been numerous problems there with many police calls related to violence and now a murder.

          How do you know this?   If so, then I agree.  However, I have not read or heard anything that backs this.

          My son tells me that he and his friends don’t like the Ket Mo Ree late night bar scene.  He says they charge a higher cover charge and have a dress code and it seems to attract a different crowd than do other Davis venues with a late night bar scene.  My son is too trained on PC correctness to go further than that, but I got his point.

          This leads me to question if it is really the business making mistakes, or just the misfortune of being attractive to the wrong type of patron.  How can you filter out patrons based on an assessment of their potential to cause trouble without invoking the wrath of the Davis social justice crusade?

          Again, if the restaurant has not broken any rules, then they will not have their license revoked.  Though certainly those Davis people prone to blaming business for everything wrong with society will demand it.

        4. Michelle Millet

          How can you filter out patrons based on an assessment of their potential to cause trouble without invoking the wrath of the Davis social justice crusade?

          Checking for weapons might be a good place to start.

        5. Frankly

          Checking for weapons might be a good place to start.

          You need to take this further.  So you support a local ordinance that requires all restaurants with a bar to stop every patron at the door and search him/her for weapons before being allowed to enter?

          They do this for concerts and some other events.  Are you willing to accept this as a new common practice for all Davis entertainment business that serve alcohol?  You take the kids to the graduate for an Aggie Burger and they have to get checked for weapons… sounds peachy to me.

          What about fists?  You do know that people can die from being punched?  What about the chairs?  Should we require that they be bolted to the floor so nobody can use them as a weapon?  Or what about the bottles and drinking glasses that can be used to slash and cut?

          Instead of throwing out some broad pseudo solution, I would like to hear your fully vetted idea.  Because it seems if you are one to jump in to demanding solutions you should actually have developed some ideas and thought them through for viability.

          How about we just eliminate bars and alcohol?    Actually, if we eliminate people most of these problems will vanish.

        6. Michelle Millet

          Instead of throwing out some broad pseudo solution, I would like to hear your fully vetted idea.  Because it seems if you are one to jump in to demanding solutions you should actually have developed some ideas and thought them through for viability.

          Have you heard me demand anything specific? All I have said so far is that something needs to be done to address the growing problem in our downtown, and from what I understand this is a growing problem.

          I have admitted that this is not an area of expertise on my part. I’m throwing out idea’s. Is this not allowed?

          So you support a local ordinance that requires all restaurants with a bar to stop every patron at the door and search him/her for weapons before being allowed to enter?

          If it could be shown to me that it was effective I would support an ordinance thats bans weapons during that time period that they charge a cover. (or something along these lines).

          Why is exploring these types of solutions so threatening to you?

        7. Michelle Millet

          What about fists?  You do know that people can die from being punched?  What about the chairs?  Should we require that they be bolted to the floor so nobody can use them as a weapon?  Or what about the bottles and drinking glasses that can be used to slash and cut?

          I’m not sure what your point is here. Because we can’t mitigate for every potential problem we shouldn’t attempt to mitigate for any of them?

        8. Michelle Millet

          If it could be shown to me that it was effective I would support an ordinance thats bans weapons during that time period that they charge a cover. (or something along these lines).

          If the bar owners were smart, they would do this voluntarily.

        9. Misanthrop

          Davis doesn’t need to do anything or pass any ordinance. Its already the responsibility of the licensee to maintain order in their establishment. How they do so is between the operator and their customers. I’m sure there is already existing law on what is an acceptable search for weapons upon entry.

          For some reason you are trying to make this into some sort of a culture war issue when its really pretty simple and there are plenty of case histories where somebody got murdered in a bar and the state came in and pulled the liquor license. Its actually the usual thing that happens. Losing your license in such cases is the norm not losing your liquor license is the exception.

          There have been lots of incidents at that place or just outside of it. I’m sure the Davis Police Department will be asked for a history by both the press and Alcohol Beverage Control as the state prepares the case. The case is going to be a slam dunk.

        10. TrueBlueDevil

          Frankly, how about this plan of action.

          1. City council / City Manager take a walk about on a Friday & Saturday night, 12 – 2 AM, in the central core. If it is out of control …

          2. Allocate additional funds for a “clamp down” with DUI checkpoints in the downtown  perimeter. Bring in extra officers from Dixon, Woodland, the Sheriffs Dept.

          3. Get the DPD to notify the press, and potentially get a few TV crews there to film the DUI checkpoints – with an interview with the Police Chief that lawless behavior, and drinking and driving, will be taken very seriously. Zero tolerance.

          4. When I was an undergrad the police would often walk through the Grad / Mr. Bs. Do they still do that today? If the town has doubled, has the city council doubled the size of the police force?

          5. The restaurant / bar in question may have a sketchy reputation for the crowd, not sure what can be done there. I have seen online they offer a huge drink bowl which is shared by 3-4 people, not sure if that helps.

          Scare the bad apples away.

        11. Michelle Millet

          Davis doesn’t need to do anything or pass any ordinance. Its already the responsibility of the licensee to maintain order in their establishment. How they do so is between the operator and their customers

          I imagine this falls under the “we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone”.   A nightclub attempting to minimize the potential for lethal violence could say will not serve you if you are carrying a weapon, and wand people at the door, as they check ID’s and charge them money to get in.

        12. Misanthrop

          The Paragon/Froggy’s was an unusual and interesting case. The owner was an attorney who fought the case. He eventually settled with the state and was allowed to sell the liquor license instead of having it revoked. In the end the owner lost the business although he was able to salvage his capital.

        13. Frankly

          Why is exploring these types of solutions so threatening to you?

          1. My background is operations, IT, project management and process improvement dealing with large and complex organizations and their problems and change opportunities.  I have spent much of that time facilitating decision-making to be optimized on a cost-benefit, risk-return basis.  And I am not just factoring the dollars… qualitative factors demand attention too.  The rest of my time was spent killing half-baked ideas made from an emotional basis that would lead to other problems.  (The trade one problem for another principle).  I am sensitive to half-baked “solutions” that cause other problems.

          2. Small business is in need of protection.  They are hammered by new rules and new laws and new regulations… things that the big businesses can afford to deal with through economies of scale.  Restaurants are thin-margin and high-risk businesses… yet you and I and everyone else in this town benefit from them.  How would you like to see fewer good restaurants in town because you added so many costly new rules and regulations that causes the business to no longer pencil out?

          3. There is a bonehead political class that puts business in the bad-actor camp and makes victims out of everything else.  And within this same group there exists a mindset of the public side “allowing” and “permitting” the business to exist and being “ruled” to basically compensate for the mess caused by society and government… without in-turn acknowledging the benefits that the business provides society and government, and the risks of that being diminished by more of the former.

          Society cannot function without business.  And government cannot be funded without business.  However, business can exist without government.  But government is needed to ensure optimum returns to society from business.

          There is a balance needed, and I am fighting against the tide of business hostility that Davis is so well known for… to help achieve some better balance.

        14. Frankly

          The case is going to be a slam dunk.

          You keep saying that.  If you end up correct I will applaud you.  If you end up wrong I will make sure to rub your nose in it.

        15. Michelle Millet

          The rest of my time was spent killing half-baked ideas made from an emotional basis that would lead to other problems. 

          That’s right, I forgot when you don’t like an idea you immediately attempt to delegitimize it, and the person making it, by claiming that it is coming from an emotionally based place.

        16. Frankly

          you don’t like an idea you immediately attempt to delegitimize it, and the person making it, by claiming that it is coming from an emotionally based place.

          When we were babies we acted on our emotions, and then we grew up and learned to make well-reasoned choices.  Emotions exist in every decision, but then there still needs to be a rational case to support the decision.

          You do understand the danger in just pursuing things that make you feel good, right?

          I have a son turning 23 soon.  I am heart-broken that this 23 year old lost his life and his family has been devastated by it.  But I catch myself seeking that easy target to blame to comfort my frayed emotions…. to make myself feel better.  Instead I want to spend my energy working on real solutions to mitigate this risk… without causing more unnecessary harm.

          If KetMoRee is breaking rules and operating in an irresponsible way, then they should be fined or have their liquor license suspended (which would likely close them down).

          But what I see now is pretty much just a lynch mob mentality.

        17. Michelle Millet

          Franky I think you are over sensitive about this idea that all the suggestions put forth in this type of situation are emotionally based.

          I have seen a handful of rational solutions presented, but you seem to have a knee jerk negative reaction to all of them, claiming that they are coming from an emotional state.

          For example, how is my suggestions to ask the bartenders and bouncers (the people on the front line)  for ideas on how to decrease the chance violence breaking out in the bar they work in “an emotional” response to the situation?

        18. Frankly

          Cool.  That is not a solution, that is an idea to collect information that might be used to help develop solutions.  Of course.  I suggest we talk to everyone that has a useful perspective.  That is called the discovery phase.

        19. Michelle Millet

          Of course.  I suggest we talk to everyone that has a useful perspective.  That is called the discovery phase.

          I’m glad you are willing to back down from your, “you are all acting emotionally” argument, long enough to admit a discovery phase may be necessary. It seems a very rational direction to take this conversation.

        20. sisterhood

          “I have a son turning 23 soon.  I am heart-broken that this 23 year old lost his life and his family has been devastated by it.”

          Frankly, I agree with your comments about the death of this young man. Well written.

  25. sisterhood

    “out of town crowds that start fights…”

    I never had a problem with folks visiting my little village of Davis when they were polite and went home afterwards. It was nice to see out of towners enjoy Davis. When Davis no longer met my needs, I moved somewhere else. But I still enjoy gong back there once a year.

  26. Tia Will

    Frankly

    Is that what you want Don… for Davis downtown to be all pizza, burgers and cheap Asian food?”

    I do not consider Seasons, Zen Toro, Tai Recipes, Cafe Bernardo, Mikuni’s, Sofie’s or Paesano’s to be “pizza, burgers, and cheap Asian food”, and yet all are remaining in business. I think that it might be reasonable, having eaten there on multiple occasions to at least consider that the closure of Tucos like that of the restaurant located adjacent to the Co Op whose name is eluding me at the moment may have suffered, not just from the lack of a night club, but rather from overcharging for mediocre service and food. I do not deny that downtown rents are a factor, but I dispute your dichotomization of a complex issue into ( paraphrasing and possibly simplifying your point) either one has a night club or one fails due to lack of peripheral business development. I have not interviewed any business owners, city staff or city council members, but would speculate that they also would view this as a multifactorial problem

    1. Frankly

      Sophie’s has live bands and DJs and stays open until 2:00 AM.

      Cafe Bernardo is not a sit-down, menu, service restaurant.  And it is connected to a hotel.  Seasons is connected to a hotel.  Pesano’s is a chain and not high end… and I would not be surprised if it is struggling and will close like the other restaurants that have occupied that space.

      I already mentioned that Mikunis is an exception.

      I’m not familiar with Zen Toro or Tai Recipes.  But like I said, some of the restaurants survive with lower food costs and lower labor costs.

  27. Alan Miller

    I do not give money to ANY of the establishments in downtown Davis that have nightclub scenes at night; I never have.  This is my personal choice as I find this scene abhorrent.  With Davis residents who are not affected by this scene increasingly aware of how ugly things have become, I urge others to join me.

    Frank Lee, there are costs to having our City support this Thursday – Saturday alcohol-fueled conversion of downtown for three hours three nights per week for the benefit of a small handful of business owners.  These are civil overtime costs, crime costs, vandalism costs, drunk driving costs.  Economic development is not an all-encompassing must-have-at-all costs concpet.  If so, we could invite several live stripper businesses to locate in downtown Davis, or possibly on West Olive.  Economic development would THRIVE.  Some may find that abhorrent.  I find the current scene absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable.  Others are starting to listen to me, finally.  Too bad it took a murder to wake people up (I guess an alleged rape, mega-multiple drunk drivings and tons of vandalism wasn’t enough).

    1. Frankly

      You are missing the point about financial viability of the restaurant.  You are also missing the point that we live in a college town with 30,000 students most that want to drink and socialize.   Seems you might be better off moving to one of those quite Midwestern bible-belt communities that keep it all clean and quiet.

      Note that it is a known fact that successful downtowns require anchors, and restaurants are known anchors.   For example, I will generally not drive downtown to shop at Ace or other retail locations, but I will go downtown to eat and drink… and also shop while I am there.

      1. Alan Miller

        financial viability of the restaurant

        I used to own a food/beverage business.  I know about financial viability.  If I owned a strip club, my business would have been a lot more “viable”.  I wouldn’t have felt right running such a place.

        with 30,000 students most that want to drink and socialize.

        I resemble that remark, from my college days in Davis.  It was quite a different scene, and not because there are more students.

        You don’t even address the consequences I listed.  I don’t think you care about anything except so-called “economic growth”.

        1. Frankly

          You don’t even address the consequences I listed.  I don’t think you care about anything except so-called “economic growth”.

          Good point on the first.  On the second, it isn’t that I don’t care about anything other than “economic growth”… and it isn’t really that I care about economic growth.  I care about economic sustainability and vitality.  And there are plenty of people in Davis that argue for things in direct conflict of both.  Frankly, (because I am) there is not enough ying to that yang, so I provide some of it.

          On the second.  These business pay taxes, and so they certainly should expect to benefit from some of the city services provided.  And if they serve alcohol they pay very high taxes and fees.

          But I disagree with you that the increase in the number of students and the increase in population is not a cause of the extra chaos downtown.  That is the primary problem.

          Your “live stripper” argument is a complete non sequitur.  Unless you want to outlaw alcohol…. turn Davis back into a dry town… or push for national prohibition again.  There is just the reality it.  It is just a part of mainstream society… people expect to be able to purchase and drink a beer, wine or cocktail.  The law allows it.  Strippers are not mainstream rights at this point.

          Maybe legalize pot and promote it as the more acceptable mind-altering recreational drug… few people fight when stoned.

  28. Scheney

    My son’s bands are hired periodically to play at clubs in downtown Davis, so periodically I have dragged myself downtown at an ungodly hour for someone my age to see him play.  Whether it is the Colleen Heauser Band, Tha Dirt Feeling, or the Evan Daly Blues Band, what I have seen at all his shows are just a bunch of young people having a great time – dancing and singing along.  But this is with a live band that performs songs with breaks and has interaction with the audience between songs, plays upbeat songs that excite the audience with slower ones mixed in which serve to settle the crowd periodically.  It is entertainment.   I believe that the clubs with ear-splitting techno or DJ mix music in an endless stream attract a very different crowd.  Live performers could never keep up such a high-energy stream of music, and I believe that the audience can’t really keep up with it either without drinking more and more often.  Good for alcohol sales, but you end up with an amped up, very drunk, and now nearly deaf crowd.

    Instead of calling for the closure of clubs, maybe change the choice of entertainment.  Hire more live bands.  There are plenty here in Davis.  Notice that we do not have bar fights during the Davis Music Fest, with a whole weekend of live music being played all over downtown.

    1. Frankly

      I support this idea of more live music… absolutely!   In fact, I think the city should explore ways to promote this.  We support the arts.  Davis has a strong music DNA/culture.  Let’s exploit it and make it so!

      But I am struggling to understand this point you are making.

      And since I reject PC correctness let me suggest that the problem isn’t so much live or electronic music, it is music that attracts people of different backgrounds that have a higher occurrence of aggression and violence in their DNA/culture.

      For example, say the live performance was a popular hip hop / rap band.  My guess is that the risk for incidents would increase due to the racial mix of the crowd with a higher percentage of those more prone to aggression and violence.   Also, the lyrics and energy of that music tend to be aggressive and suggestive of violence.

      But I have also seen a few fights break out at the live country music show.  Generally though only fists and no weapons.  Certainly alcohol played a role.

      There could be 200 people there to see the act and only one of them the bad one that would fight and kill another.   We are really talking about the risk for attracting that bad element.

      Good luck with this though because hip hop / rap is mainstream.

    2. Alan Miller

      I believe that the clubs with ear-splitting techno or DJ mix music in an endless stream attract a very different crowd.

      Yup.

      I patronize the live clubs in Davis (haven’t banned them).  The techno thumpa-thumpa-thumpa is an entirely new and decidedly unpleasant element.  I’m not saying bad stuff doesn’t happen with live bands, it’s a matter of degree, and it isn’t like 5% worse, it’s like many times worse.  I can’t “prove it” with scientific studies, but it’s bloody obvious.

    3. sisterhood

      I do hear your point about different music attracting different crowds but would the bar in question remain in business if it did nt ake a profit? I assume there is enough demand for high energy techno thump thump thump to keep it in businss. I’m not sure how one curbs the business while keeping America American. If no one liked this bar, it wouldeventually go out of business.

      Re: guns, one poster suggested patrons being wanded like they were at the airport. Another reader opined that a wooden barstool or broken bottle can also be a deadly weapon. Not sure I care if an off duty cop wants a drink & brings his gun with him. Not sure that scenario would be such an un-safe scenario.

      In AZ,after Gabby was shot, more businesses displayed signs in their window: no firearms allowed. Perhaps the bars could place “no firearms allowed” or “no weapons allowed” in their window. I’m against schools and bars wanding everyone who walks on the premises.

  29. CountyRoad

    We need more police presence.  Davis has reduced its number of police officers over the years, and it’s noticeable.  At least one or two more officers on the downtown beat would certainly help in making people feel safer, and hopefully make the criminal-minded think twice before doing something.

      1. Alan Miller

        There are lots of cops downtown on Thrusday – Saturday nights near the thumpa-thumpa-thumpa venues.  Great time to commit a crime elsewhere in town:  11pm – 2am.  Does the extra taxes Frank Lee mentions pay all that overtime?

        1. Michelle Millet

          I was hoping that no one was going to mention the fact that  all of our on duty police officers end up downtown breaking up bar fights on some Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights.

  30. DurantFan

    Picnic Day 2010: Decades in the Making
     (Although  this Letter to the Editor was originally written in response to the disastrous excesses  of Picnic Day 2010, much of it is still applicable to the late night bar scene in Davis today.  Same Problems:Different Stage

    Bad behavior resulting from excessive consumption of readily available alcohol by young adults apparently was a major contributor to this year’s disastrous Picnic Day. However, this condition didn’t happen overnight. My wife and I have lived in Davis since 1974, and we offer our perspective on this situation as follows:

    — During much of the 1970s, the city of Davis was ‘dry,’ and one had to drive outside the city limits to purchase alcohol. As a result, Davis was a quiet, friendly and family-oriented university town throughout the day and evening. Downtown businesses closed by 10 p.m. at the latest, and late-night partying and excessive drinking were rare activities. We found Picnic Days to be uplifting and positive family events, and our children especially enjoyed the parades.

    — During the prosperous 1980s and 1990s, the city was ‘wet,’ and alcohol was readily available in supermarkets and stores throughout the city. During this period, numerous restaurants and specialized businesses opened in Davis, and downtown became diverse and lively during the day and evening.

    Although many of the newer restaurants served alcohol, most closed by 10 p.m. when the other downtown businesses closed. As a result, downtown Davis remained relatively safe and quiet late at night.

    Picnic Days during this period also were more crowded and less orderly, but were still relatively family-friendly and positive. However, the character of the city was changing as late-night partying and excessive drinking were becoming progressively more common throughout the city.

    — During the challenging 2000s, the character of many restaurants downtown changed. These businesses continued to operate as restaurants during the day and evening, but converted to bars and clubs at night.

    Many of these bars and clubs now remain open until midnight, long after other businesses have closed within downtown Davis. As a result, they have become an appealing draw for students and young adults throughout the area, and the city of Davis has become known as a party town. On weekends in particular, youths line up for blocks to join the ‘party’ at the more popular local bars and clubs.

    When these bars and clubs finally close, droves of these young adults wander throughout our darkened city looking to party further if possible. The increase in late-night and early-morning crime incidents within Davis further confirm this characterization. Picnic Day 2010 showcased the potential for further mayhem if conditions downtown continue to deteriorate.

    In summary, we believe the conditions leading to the Picnic Day problems this year have been building for decades. If Davis residents and UC Davis officials don’t strive to restore the fine character of our city, then Picnic Day as a positive and family-friendly event will be lost forever.

    http://www.davisenterprise.com/story_print.php?id=631.0

    1. Frankly

      1970 population – 23,488

      1980 population – 36,640

      1990 population – 46,209

      2015 population – 72,000

      In 2012 Sacramento was ranked as the 26th most populated regions in the US.  And the Bay Area growth spilled to Valejo, Fairfield and Vacaville… and even Dixon.

      Yolo county population grew too.

      More people in Davis and in the region and a tiny downtown causes more opportunity for bad people-to-people incidents.  Alcohol is certainly a factor, but what are you going to do about that?

    2. sisterhood

      “Davis was a quiet, friendly and family-oriented university town throughout the day and evening.”

      Hello Durant,

      That’s nice that you were insulated from any rowdy behavior in the 1970’s. I also remember Davis in the 70’s and my memory (fading) of the 70’s, especially the late 70’s, is a little different. I blame those darned alligator shirts. 🙂

      1. hpierce

        Well, there was a sword fight at The Club circa 1976.  Drunk guy accosted some women, and one of the guys with the ladies had just come back from fencing practice.  Pulled out his epee, thrashed the drunk guy and got away cleanly. As did the ladies.

        Heard this from the ‘fencer’, and he was different, but never lied. I considered him as a good friend.

    3. Alan Miller

      Many of these bars and clubs now remain open until midnight, long after other businesses have closed within downtown Davis.

      To be clear, the thumpa-thumpa-thumpa clubs begin cranking up the low-end deafening sub-woofers at 11:00pm, and it doesn’t stop until 2:00am, two hours AFTER midnight.

  31. oopsididitagain

    What ever happened to personal responsibility? This is hilarious. Everyone wants to blame everything EXCEPT FOR THE TRUE CAUSE. The actions of the suspect. I would love to know how this thread would have gone if it were a gun instead of a knife. Everyone wants to change Hours, Zoning, The legality of Alcohol, No nightclub/restaurants WTH is wrong with the fact that there are some bad people that do bad things,and that CAN NOT BE REGULATED.   I guess it is a matter of having to blame someone so you don’t feel like it can happen to anyone, anywhere. AKA a false sense of security. Most of you honestly seem very educated, yet very  naive.

    1. Alan Miller

      Anonymous person:

      There is such a thing as creating an atmosphere that attracts bad people.  That is what these pseudo-night-clubs do.  Some of us have noted the increase in crime and bad behavior since these pseudo-night-clubs came to town.

      Yes, the perp did it.

      But when you put out rat food on weekend nights, don’t be surprised when you town is filled with rats on weekend nights, AND while the rats did it, yes, those assholes who put out the rat food are the ones to blame.

      1. oopsididitagain

        So Alan according to your logic, Those who put out the rat food are the ones to blame. Therefor If there were No students to patronize the club it wouldn’t exist. Because the people who are attracted to the atmosphere are the problem?  Your are correct lets shut down the campus. Because if there is No students to want to go to the clubs, There would be No problems. Got it!

        UCD= Students

        Students= Nightclubs

        Night Clubs= rats and violence.

        Alan I do believe you are on to something.

         

      2. Frankly

        Ok… I think I am starting to understand your position.

        You are seeking the Footloose solution.

        You think the thump, thump, DJ, electronic type music attracts bad people?  What about hip-hop/rap?  How much do you really know about the current fan demographics for the different music genres?  It sounds to me like you want to censor certain types of music.  A big percentage of the “good” people (college students) like that music… so you want us to tell them too bad, so sad… since too many bad people like this music too, the community elders are doing the Footloose thing and banning it.  You have to listen to oldies and turn down the sub-woofer.”

        And, this approach makes the assumption that “bad” people won’t also come listened to the community elder-sanctioned music.  That would really suck to have the Footloose restriction AND see the bad people still hanging out and “dancing.”

        It is my opinion that the type of music does not really matter when there are all those cute and inebriated young college girls around.

        They will dance to anything when the girls are there. And they are a lot of them and they are all concentrated in our small downtown.

        Very strong target area for all hormone-filled young men.

        So, maybe we could adopt Sharia law and forbid drinking and dancing and make all the girls wear the burka and stay home.

        1. Tia Will

          Frankly

          Very strong target area for all hormone-filled young men.”

          This is the kind of comment that I was alluding to with my reference to our societies defense of the  “boys will be boys” attitude. You have neatly expressed the idea that they can’t control their behavior because of their hormones attitude that is actually quite prevalent. Now I realize that you were not proposing this as a serious solution since you doubled down with the burka comment. However, I believe that you have inadvertently expressed what many people actually believe, namely that men’s excessive and violent behavior is actually based on the behavior of women.

          Since when are women responsible for the violent behavior of their male counterparts any  more than restaurant owners are ?  Can we not admit that each group is responsible for their own behaviors ?  Restaurant owners for continuing to promote a behavior that disinhibits in the form of excess alcohol intake for their own profit ? Women for drinking to excess and deliberately choosing to be in circumstances that are known to be high risk ? But most especially, the young men who choose to drink to excess and then display their perceived male superiority in the form of boorish and unfortunately all too often violent behavior ?  How about each group accept responsibility for their own contribution ?  How about we as a society look hard at our culture and policies to see how we can positively influence behaviors rather than just throwing up our hands and saying nothing can be done since of course we cannot expect anyone to sacrifice profit, even if it means saving community resources, or even a life ?

        2. Frankly

          Since when are women responsible for the violent behavior of their male counterparts any  more than restaurant owners are

          With the defeat of “no means no” laws, it is clear that women are believed by the liberal controlling establishment to be incapable of self-control after ingesting alcohol.  They also cannot be trusted to prevent themselves from getting pregnant out of wedlock.

          And you are one that defends both of these things… demanding that men hold the all or most of the responsibility for self-control.

          So you discount male hormones and make endless excused for female hormones.

          I think you are demonstrating strong sexist attitudes… maybe bordering on being a man-hater.

          1. Don Shor

            man-hater

            [moderator] Please don’t use terms like this and please don’t insult your fellow Vanguard participants. Thanks.

    2. Antoinnette

      I couldn’t agree more, oopsididitagain…..and sadly, two families are suffering from this tragedy yet not one person has mentioned that, instead 160 plus comments arguing over blame/solutions.

      Crime can happen at any time, day or night and to any single one of us, alcohol or not….take a look at the mass murders at schools, churches, theatres, malls for instance.  Are there things we can do to prevent some of it yes, but by the time we talk about it or actually make changes, another life/lives are  lost…

      There are no simple or single solutions because not one of us can predict the actions of another.

      Too, at this point all we know is there was a bar fight that ended in tragedy and until trial, we won’t know the details of exactly what happened and even then, a lot is left to speculation as always.

      Just my experience…..Prayers for these families….

      1. Tia Will

        Antoinette

        While I respect and believe in the value of prayer within individual lives, I become concerned when prayer is advised as the best way forward. Too often this is used as a means to shrug our shoulders, believe that there is nothing at all that we can do to make positive changes and place our faith in God as we perceive the deity, while forgetting that we have been given ( or have) depending on your point of view, free agency as human beings. Humans have the ability to change our world and in my view, should be using all of our resources, not just prayer and faith, to better the world in which we find ourselves.

        1. Barack Palin

          While I respect and believe in the value of prayer within individual lives, I become concerned when prayer is advised as the best way forward. 

          You got all that out of Antoinnette just saying:

          Prayers for these families….

           

      2. Davis Progressive

        “sadly, two families are suffering from this tragedy yet not one person has mentioned that, instead 160 plus comments arguing over blame/solutions.”

        it is striking to me that antoinnette who has worked a long time in some capacity on the vanguard, doesn’t understand what the vanguard is or does.  the vanguard is primarily about public policy and so people see a problem, they start looking towards a solution.  i disagree that there is no simple solution here – we don’t need to be able to predict the actions of others, we need businesses to manage their businesses in a responsible way, ketmoree has long been a problem and the question is whether the city wants to give them a chance to get their stuff together or shut them down.

        1. Frankly

          ketmoree has long been a problem

          Evidence?   Define “problem”.  If you mean “not of your liking” it might just be your problem.

          I have not seen anything that backs this claim that the restaurant is a problem.  I think the restaurant has to deal with problems that are caused by other factors that can be approved upon.

  32. Tia Will

    You got all that out of Antoinnette just saying:”

    No, I got all of that out of the entire context of the discussion to date. The only reason that I used Antoinette’s quote is because I felt it spoke eloquently to the sense of helplessness and hopelessness that individuals and communities can experience when such a violent and tragic event occurs close to home.

    Knowing Antoinette personally, I am confident that she will interpret my statement not as criticism, but as an inclusive view of all positive steps to reduce violence while providing comfort to those who have experienced it.

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