My View: Complying With Officers

Screen-shot shows another "hands-up, don't shoot" moment
Screenshot shows another “hands-up, don’t shoot” moment

The case of Michael Pedersen, which the Vanguard Court Watch covered this week, illustrates at the local level basic problems with the approach to policing.  According to our coverage, the defense maintains that the defendant had broken no laws at the point at which a West Sacramento police officer approached him “because he was walking on the sidewalk and then stepped onto the street when the sidewalk ended.”

It was at this point that the officer drove by and slowed his vehicle, asking Mr. Pederson to get back on the sidewalk.  The defendant’s response was clearly inappropriate – he flipped off the officer.  However, the officer used that as pretext to pull over to the curb, get out of the vehicle and conduct a “welfare check” on the defendant.

“When he began patting the defendant down, the defendant jerked away from the officer, got frightened, and ran away towards oncoming traffic,” the Court Watch article explained.  Moreover, the defense would argue, as reported by the Vanguard, “that the officer had no right to search the defendant, as he had not committed a crime or given the officer reasonable suspicion.”

Can an individual resist arrest when there is no underlying crime?  That is the troubling aspect of this case and, unfortunately, the jury abetted the officer’s conduct with a conviction.  And, while the punishment for this crime was 12 months of summary probation, the implications of it go much deeper.

In his Washington Post column this week, Radley Balko noted a comment made by Waterbury, Connecticut, Police Chief Vernon L. Riddick, Jr., who delivered a message to a mostly African American crowd of more than 200 people at Mount Olive African Methodist Episcopal (A.M.E.) Zion Church earlier this week.

The article paraphrased the comment to: “If an officer stops your car, if they ask to search your person or vehicle, if they demand entry into your home, comply and then complain later to the department’s internal affairs office and police chief’s office if you feel your rights have been violated.”

As Radley Balko counters in his column, “I understand the argument that you shouldn’t mouth off to cops. I get the argument that you shouldn’t needlessly provoke them. I certainly agree that you shouldn’t physically resist them. It could get you killed.

“But this is a police chief who, in a town hall meeting spurred by a rash of shootings both by and of police officers, is asking that citizens submit without question if an officer requests to search a vehicle, home or person. In the interest of ‘cooperation,’ he’s asking a black audience to give up their Fourth Amendment rights.”

Mr. Balko argues, “The Fourth Amendment gives us the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. The intent behind the amendment was to protect us from the indignity and violation of our privacy when we’re subjected to a search that’s based on little more than a hunch — the intent was not to protect our right to later complain to internal affairs.”

He adds, “I realize things are tense right now. We should certainly respect and be aware of that when interacting with law enforcement officers. But to verbally refuse a request to search is an exercise of one’s rights. It isn’t a provocation. That Riddick and other police officials seem to see it as the latter is telling — and a big problem.”

Mr. Balko makes a good point, to which I will add that there is no guarantee that filing a complaint will be effective and there is no guarantee that the courts will correctly exclude evidence of an illegal search – and they may use lack of compliance as rationale to argue that the search was legal.

I am troubled further, however, that there is a growing belief that police shootings only happen when there is a lack of compliance by the subject.  The idea is that if you listen to the police officer’s commands – even illegal and unreasonable ones – you have nothing to worry about.

But the Kinsey case in North Miami is troubling because Mr. Kinsey, who was shot, was telling police – as can be heard on the video – not to shoot, the autistic man had a toy, not a gun.  And he had his hands up in the air when he was shot by police.

There is some dispute as to why he was shot.  The police officer’s union president, John Rivera, said the shooting was an accident and the officer thought the toy was a gun.  Mr. Rivera said that “the officers on the scene” did not know the man with autism had a toy rather than a weapon.

However, as City Councilmember Scott Galvin indicated, a police officer was put on unpaid administrative leave for giving inconsistent statements, and he stated that “the police officer who you’ve just heard named, who has been put on leave, totally violated his trust from the public to protect and serve.”

He added, “By giving misinformation to this department, he not only jeopardized Mr. Kinsey’s life and the life of his client, but he jeopardized the life of every police officer who serves in this city.”

Mr. Kinsey is not the only one this month to be shot while apparently following orders.  The details that led an officer to shoot Philando Castile several times through a car window earlier this month remain unclear, but one account by his girlfriend claims he was being asked for his license and registration.

Mr. Castile reportedly told the officer he was licensed to carry a weapon and had one in his car.  Ms. Reynolds stated: “The officer said don’t move. As he was putting his hands back up, the officer shot him in the arm four or five times.”

In Know Your Rights training, individuals are instructed on their rights and how to assert them.  One of the standard admonishments is not to take up a dispute with a police officer on the scene.  That is general good advice, but it doesn’t always work.

As we have seen in a number of shootings – South Carolina, Chicago, and perhaps now in Miami – police accounts have been contradicted by video recordings.

The councilmember makes the critical point that such statements as Riddick delivered violate the trust of the public and, by giving out misinformation, he may well jeopardized the lives of police officers.

—David M. Greenwald reporting

About The Author

David Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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63 Comments

  1. Tia Will

    One narrative that we hear from the police in instances of the use of excessive force is that “they had to make a split second, life and death decision”.  This is also occasionally true in the case of surgeons. And yet it is of the utmost importance in my field that we not panic and give into a rush to judgement which has the potential to turn a serious circumstance into a disastrous or even fatal one. Surgeons in training are routinely taught that when faced with what you perceive as an emergency, that you “First, take your own pulse”. This is no joke. It allows for that slight pause that is enough to decrease in your own adrenaline level which allows you time to make sure that you have assessed the entire situation correctly instead of just reacting. A surgeon with a knife in her hand, if she does not correctly assess the situation, is a danger to the patient, and anyone at the table. The same could certainly be said for the police officer on the street with a gun in her hand.

    So my question for Phil, or anyone who knows more than I about police training is : Is “first, take your own pulse” or “first, do not harm”  a routine part of police training ?  Because if not, I would make the simple suggestion that adding this directive would save innocent lives.

    1. Barack Palin

      I’ve never heard of a patient shooting a surgeon during surgery.  Every situation is different, but ““first, take your own pulse” might end up being an officer’s last pulse.

      1. Tia Will

        BP

        I’ve never heard of a patient shooting a surgeon during surgery.”

        And I have never heard of a patient deliberately giving HIV or Hep C to a either a policeman or a surgeon during surgery. Yes, there are dangers that are encountered in both surgery and policing to those who voluntarily accept these jobs. My point is that there are precautions that the surgeon or police can take that may lessen the danger for all involved. One precaution is to not put yourself, or others in excessive danger without having a full understanding of the situation which was clearly the case in the shooting of Tamir Rice and is clearly the case in the shooting of the mental health care worker in this case. Acting without understanding would be, in your example, the equivalent of a surgeon, driven by perceived urgency, not bothering to put on protective gloves prior to operating.

    2. PhillipColeman

      “So my question for Phil, or anyone who knows more than I about police training is : Is “first, take your own pulse” or “first, do not harm”  a routine part of police training ?”

      Yes.

      Don’t contribute to the problem, it was already there before you arrived. That’s why they called you. Your job is to solve it.

      Other folks can be upset, but don’t allow them to upset you.

      Use only the minimal force necessary to subdue the suspect, and nothing more is permitted.

      If time and public safety allow it, waiting for additional help to arrive, or waiting until the suspect dies of old age, it is a far better option to exposing yourself to unnecessary risk and being injured or dying.

      If you know who he is, and he gets away, big deal. Get a warrant of arrest; he’ll be arrested by somebody and probably very soon.

      No jerk is worth risking a reputation or career that you worked so hard to achieve and keep.

      Just a few of many words of wisdom constantly preached by expert trainers. It should be added that realistic tactical scenarios are staged, with the prime intent to deliberately bait and taunt officers in training. Some of the performances by veteran street cops posing as bad guys are worthy of an Academy Award nomination.

      Is it infallible, is it done by every law enforcement agency and everywhere in the United States? No and no.

       

      1. Tia Will

        Phil

        Thank you for taking the time to reply. I would be interested in your thoughts about whether or not their is a common theme that could be addressed behind the episodes we have seen in which these lessons do not appear to have had their intended effect ?

  2. Delia .

    My son and I were handcuffed in my There were approximately 6 armed officers. We did nothing whatsoever to provoke them. I believe it was purely a power play. We did not feel comfortable filing a complaint, because they had input re: whether or not my male friend was granted an early release from his probationary period. (Which, after going to court later, he was granted.)

    There really was no recourse whatsoever re: their inappropriate misconduct.

    Also, a reminder:

    The statute of limitations re: police misconduct is 2 years. Sometimes it takes longer than that for a citizen suffering from ptsd to heal enough to take on the police.

    1. Miwok

      We did nothing whatsoever to provoke them.

      When your argument starts with that, you display no understanding of your situation. First you accuse the PD of a “power play” than it comes out the Male with you is “on Probation”.

      Something provoked them, maybe what happened before that moment, but it sure didn’t have an effect on your attitude toward the PD. I feel sorry that your path includes these “incidents”.

      1. Delia .

        And I have sympathy that you assume stuff. He plea bargained to a crime he did not commit. He did nothing wrong.  No contest does not mean guilty. It means the stakes are so high, and legal defense so expensive, one runs out of options. You obviously have never been in a situation like his. Count your blessings instead of judging.

        It WAS a power play. Were you one of the armed officers in my home? I was there. You were not there. You don’t know what you’re talking about. We have four witnesses.

  3. SODA

    We have taught our kids the same advice, if stopped, comply, don’t mouth off and be pleasant. That if you are innocent or maybe inadvertently done something wrong in the eyes of the police, reason will prevail if you are respectful and submissive during searches.

    Our new DIL who is Black has taught me that being black in this county means not having the benefit of the doubt. And that the premise stated above will not necessarily come true and the recent shootings of innocent (or perhaps not innocent but shooting not necessary) are inherent in the not having a benefit of the doubt.  This has helped me get closer to understanding the burden others face every day.

  4. Tia Will

    SODA

    This has helped me get closer to understanding the burden others face every day.”

    Well expressed. It is very easy to see and feel our own burdens. It is perhaps even easier to dismiss the burdens which we are spared, but are faced daily by others.

  5. Frankly

    In marketing there is this thing called “brand”.  A brand is a set of marketing and communication methods that help to distinguish a company from competitors and create a lasting impression in the minds of customers.   Is is maybe the most important concept for a company and its products.  Establishing and maintaining a positive brand is challenging.  After working hard to build up a brand, a single incident can send it crashing.  A good example is Chipotle… known for fresh ingredients, a tainted chicken salmonella outbreak caused a significant drop in consumer confidence and sales.

    Branding also translates to politics.  But while it is generally accepted business practice to steer clear of negative branding of a competitor (instead focusing only on positive branding of self), not so with politics.   In fact branding opponents as negative has become the primary aim of most political contests these days.  That is why the DNC pushes the claim that Trump is a racist and misogynist and the RNC pushes the claim that Hillary is a chronic liar and a criminal.

    Branding can be an action taken to manipulate public opinion and perception, or it can be a passive thing… just evolving from events and the resulting social narrative.  The media plays a very big part in this passive social branding… except when the media is active in manipulation.

    Today there is a problem with the black brand in society.  It is severely negative compared to other racial groups.  The out of wedlock births.  The missing fathers.  The drug use.  The crime.  The violence.  And much of it glorified in Hip Hop culture.  Social Justice people like to make the point that the perceptions in the black community of mistreatment from the cops is reason enough for society to shame the cops and whites that support the cops.  But then what about the perceptions of others over the black community?

    Shaming whites and cops with implicit racial bias is like shaming people for not eating at Chipotle after the tainted chicken stories broke.

    And law enforcement is also suffering a negative brand.  Just like the negative black brand, some of it is justified but much of it is over-blown.  It has the terrible consequence of impacting the good people within the group.  Those that don’t actually fit the public perception of the negative brand.

    The challenge should be to clean up the brand.  To work on the negative public perceptions to turn them around… make them positive.

    Shaming whites and cops for social perceptions is not going to help while the inputs to the negative brand continue.  We are not going to magically accept the negative drivers of the black brand and think of them as positive.  Likewise we are not going to magically accept the negative drivers of the cop brand and turn them positive.

    I am saddened that there is this problem.  I know good people that are unfairly treated because they are members of one of these two groups owning a broken and negative brand.   They deserve better.  It is for them that we should be working together to transform the brands to positive.

  6. Tia Will

    Social Justice people like to make the point that the perceptions in the black community of mistreatment from the cops is reason enough for society to shame the cops and whites that support the cops.  But then what about the perceptions of others over the black community?”

    The challenge should be to clean up the brand.  To work on the negative public perceptions to turn them around… make them positive.”

    I disagree. The challenge should not be to “clean up the brand”. This is where companies differ from individuals and communities. The challenge for a community, a police department and for individuals should be to see beyond the brand to the reality of the situation. People and their communities are not companies or corporations with simplified logos and brands. They are far more complex and should be judged holistically on the basis of their individual attributes ( good, bad and indifferent) not on how they successfully they manage to advertise themselves to the world. Reality should always take precedence over perception. Unfortunately that is not the society that we have built where image seems to supersede all else.

    1. Frankly

      In utopia, but not the real world.

      This gets us to a reality test… one that explains a fundamental difference in my view of the world and what I perceive yours to be.

      What would it take for everyone to accurately size up every other person so that they are treated completely fairly based on who they are as a person and not how they appear to be at first impression?

      American soldiers came back from Vietnam and were spat on and called “baby killers”.  So why didn’t the anti-war Hippy activists take the time to get to know each soldier as a person before throwing those vile insults?

      What is the brand of Asians?  Driven.  Studious.  Hard working.  Polite and prone to compliance and assimilation.  Except for the Asian drug user, crook and murderer.

      What is the brand of doctors?  Allow me to suggest a negative branding of doctors over-prescribing addictive pain-killers that have led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people, and doctors ordering unneeded procedures for financial gain.  Let’s say there are a lot of stories like this that the media chases and the public perception of the medical practice starts to crash.  Again you can shame patients for their growing mistrust of all doctors because of the misdeeds of a few, but it isn’t going to help fix the general perception problem… in fact it is likely to just cause more of the same.

      Human nature does not fit well into the utopia box your prefer.  Hell, we can’t accurately size up the true character, intent and motivations of people we have known for decades let alone do so in an instant when lives are at stake.

      I see what you and other social justice people are advocating for… that everyone is treated exactly how they deserve to be treated based on who they really are as a person.  For cops to somehow dig down deep into their souls in an instant and develop a professional relationship that honors that person for who they are and not based on the group or tribe they belong to.

      That is impossible.  It is almost laughable to make it an expectation.

      Clean up the group or tribe brand and then the members of that group or tribe will be treated better.

      1. Don Shor

        Since you’re using an advertising/marketing metaphor, I’ll continue that. As advertising folks will tell you: perception is not reality, but it does drive behavior. They wouldn’t spend billions of dollars a year to try to change perception if it didn’t affect the behavior of consumers.
        And perception often has some basis in reality.

        It is important to try to change the conditions on the ground: the realities of police behavior, of the interactions of youths in the communities where these problems are occurring. But it is also useful to work directly to change perceptions. Most people probably didn’t know until the recent tragedy that the Dallas police department has implemented the kinds of training and procedures that will make a difference. Publicizing those changes can gradually change the perception — improve the brand of the Dallas police. It would not be unreasonable at all for police departments to work on public relations so long as they are also actually focusing on changes to procedures.

        You can find a video online of Shaquille O’Neal being brought in by local police in Gainesville when they got a nuisance call about a basketball game. 500,000+ views. I’d say that is a good return on investment in that community.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUK7cQyfGW4

        1. Frankly

          I don’t have any problem with what you have posted here.  The missing piece is any acknowledgement that the black community has a perception problem that is based on real behavior problems.  Or maybe you acknowledge it but for some reason don’t support that side of the accountability challenge.

          This is where I think it gets to the liberal vs. conservative divide.  It seems that liberals are also group biased… but in a mode of victim mentality vs. those with power.  That the black community problems are off limits in diagnosing the problems because blacks in general are victims of slavery, oppression and racism.   And so liberals want their generalization cake and want to eat it to.  Blacks as a group deserve special consideration because of all the harm and damage done many, many generations ago… but then we should demand that everyone in the group be treated as an individual ignoring all those group perceptions that, frankly, are born out of actual real facts.

          So it is ALL about the cops.  The cops are the powerful ones, and blacks in general are the victims and should not be held to any higher standard of general behavior.

          And so we are going to be stuck.  Unfortunately it is liberals keeping us stuck.  Conservatives generally agree that there is a need for law enforcement reforms, but also that there is a great need to reform the black community.   Liberals apparently can’t accept the latter, and thus there will be no progress.

          1. Don Shor

            The missing piece is any acknowledgement that the black community has a perception problem that is based on real behavior problems. Or maybe you acknowledge it but for some reason don’t support that side of the accountability challenge.

            Certainly, it’s just that there’s no single specific entity called the “black community.” Whereas a police agency is a specific entity — and, in fact, is answerable to public officials and indirectly to the people they serve. It probably already has a budget for outreach and community relations.
            The “black community” could be anything from the ministers and community organizers, to those who work with youth, teachers, social service professionals, athletes, public officials. It’s a lot of people who would be hard to organize. And when they do organize, there’s a tendency to dismiss them, as with the Black Lives Matter movement (which really seems too decentralized to describe it as an organization).
            It’s not “all about the cops.” But another important factor is the disproportion of power. Police officers have real power over individuals, and abuse of that power is a serious concern. Or it should be.

            Conservatives generally agree that there is a need for law enforcement reforms, but also that there is a great need to reform the black community.

            So, concluding the point I was making above, law enforcement agencies can be reformed. You can’t “reform the black community.” There are no action points to be taken, no reforms to implement; there’s no actual thing that is “the black community.” Is there a white community? An Hispanic community? No. A demographic isn’t a community in any hierarchical or organizational sense.

        2. Frankly

          Good post Don.  It lays out contrasting opinions.  There is much I disagree with, but I appreciate you providing this because I think it provides a lot to discuss.  I will post a reply later.

      2. Tia Will

        Frankly

         see what you and other social justice people are advocating for… that everyone is treated exactly how they deserve to be treated based on who they really are as a person.  For cops to somehow dig down deep into their souls in an instant and develop a professional relationship that honors that person for who they are and not based on the group or tribe they belong to.

        That is impossible.  It is almost laughable to make it an expectation.

        Clean up the group or tribe brand and then the members of that group or tribe will be treated better.

        Why do you write such ridiculous things and then pretend that it is what I believe ?

        Yes what you wrote would be laughable to make it an expectation. But it is nothing at all like what I said. I think it extremely odd that you, who have claimed in the past to believe in individual responsibility, now are making the claim that it is utopian thinking and that are membership in a group is what we should be judged by.

        1. Frankly

          Uh… Earth to Tia.

          People and their communities are not companies or corporations with simplified logos and brands. They are far more complex and should be judged holistically on the basis of their individual attributes ( good, bad and indifferent) not on how they successfully they manage to advertise themselves to the world.

          If you advertise yourself as a violent thug unfortunately you might not get the benefit of a full personality evaluation and psychoanalysis because of the lack of time between the time the cop sees you in your violent thuggish behavior and appearance and has to make a split second decision.

          Sometimes I think you see the world in much slower motion than it actually moves.

          But here is how your highly fanciful cop-can-judge-all-people-holistically-on-the-basis-of-their-individual-attributes idea might advance a bit.  Hire 5x the number of cops to become part of the these high crime communities so they can be more like segregate fathers to all these angry, fatherless and violent young people. And then listen to the cops when they explain what is needed in these communities.   Oh… and stop voting for big government climate alarmist candidates that implement policy that prevents business from starting and growing to provide more jobs in these high-crime communities.

      3. wdf1

        Frankly:  What is the brand of Asians?  Driven.  Studious.  Hard working.  Polite and prone to compliance and assimilation.  Except for the Asian drug user, crook and murderer.

        That former “brand” you give to Asians (“driven”, “studious”, “hard working”) would tend to be more characteristic of higher SES Asians.

        Since you raise the subject, I invite you to read Yong Zhao’s book, Who’s Afraid of the Big Bad Dragon?: Why China Has the Best (and Worst) Education System in the World.

        This paragraph summarizes a key thesis of the book:

        “No one, after  12 years of Chinese education, has any chance to receive a Nobel prize, even if he or she goes to Harvard, Yale, Oxford, or Cambridge for college,” blogged Zheng Yefu, a professor at China’s Peking University and author of The Pathology of Chinese Education, a popular Chinese book published in 2013.  “Out of the one billion people who have been educated in Mainland China since 1949, there has been no Nobel prize winner*,” Zheng wrote in an article.  “This forcefully testifies [to] the power of education in destroying creativity on behalf of the [Chinese] society.”  p. 119

        *China had its first winner of a Nobel Prize in science in 2015.  The book was published in 2014. Nevertheless, the point still stands that China may have students that somehow Americans want to emulate, but it doesn’t produce outstanding outcomes.

        Eastern Asian countries — China, Japan, Korea, for example — use major standardized tests as a tool of meritocracy to determine educational achievement and advancement to higher education.  The book points out how this tool goes hand in hand with developing and instituting an authoritarian society.  If you read this book and study how public education is implemented in various communities throughout the U.S., you will see that this is the direction we’re moving in, unfortunately — NCLB,  SBAC and PARCC testing for testing Common Core, using student performance on these standardized test scores to rate teachers.  You will see, from reading the book, that Chinese parents think their education system basically sucks, and would like to have more of what we have (or perhaps used to have) in the U.S.

        1. South of Davis

          wdf1 wrote:

          > That former “brand” you give to Asians (“driven”,

          > “studious”, “hard working”) would tend to be

          > more characteristic of higher SES Asians.

          It is pretty much all Asians “in America”  (I don’t think Frankly was talking about the “brand” of the Communist Chinese since not many of us know much about rural Chinese peasant farmers).

          Here in America high SES Asians and low SES Asians (who will often live in a garage to get their kids in to good public schools) are mostly hard  working and studious.

           

        2. wdf1

          SoD:  It is pretty much all Asians “in America”  (I don’t think Frankly was talking about the “brand” of the Communist Chinese since not many of us know much about rural Chinese peasant farmers).

          Here in America high SES Asians and low SES Asians (who will often live in a garage to get their kids in to good public schools) are mostly hard  working and studious.

          I would encourage you to read the book.  What is clear from the book is that authoritarianism in China didn’t begin with communism.  It has existed for centuries.   Communism is only the latest manifestation.  Prior to communism, Chinese emperors kept their brighter subjects compliant by inducing everyone to take the civil service exam and recruiting the top scorers to serve in the imperial government.

          The question Yong Zhao entertains, “if the Chinese have been model individuals and students like this for centuries [and like you and Frankly seem to appreciate], then why hasn’t China ruled the world?”   He suggests that a culture of test preparation keeps them compliant and uncreative.

        3. South of Davis

          wdf wrote:

          > The question Yong Zhao entertains, “if the Chinese have

          > been model individuals and students like this for centuries 

          I’m not going back “centuries” I’m just talking about the last 50 years here in the US that just about every Asian (Chinese, Japanese and Korean) that came here and sent their kids to US schools have been mostly hard  working and studious…

          > He suggests that a culture of test preparation

          > keeps them compliant and uncreative.

          One of my childhood friends parents came here from China and his Tiger Mom (and Tiger Dad) were brutal but he had the grades to go to Cal (and later HBS). We often talk about how more often than not it is European Americans (who had lower test scores than the Asian kids) that not only run the VC firms but have the creative ideas for the companies they fund…

  7. Napoleon Pig IV

    A brief and relevant commentary on rights, pragmatism, and judgement:

    I have the right to flip off any cop anytime, anywhere; and

    Most cops are good and decent people, but some cops are psycho primates with weapons and an attitude; and

    Exercising my right may result in injury or death; and

    The “justice” system does not work well, especially for those without money and/or connections; and

    Therefore, I should exercise reasonable judgement in deciding when and how to exercise my rights.

    Oink!

  8. Tia Will

    Frankly

    f you advertise yourself as a violent thug unfortunately you might not get the benefit”

    In the picture above, with the mental health care worker lying flat on his back with his hands raised, does he look to you as though he is “advertising himself as a violent thug ? Does the autistic man advertised himself as a violent thug ? And yet they most certainly dd not get the “benefit” of any consideration of the situation when he was shot including consideration of what he was telling them was the situation !

    1. David Greenwald

      Or to push today’s article onto this: is Senator Tim Scott advertising himself as a violent thug? The problem here is that some people associate black males with violent thug and therefore excuse disparate treatment based on looks and stereotypes that may not be accurate.

      1. Frankly

        The problem here is that some people associate black males with violent thug and therefore excuse disparate treatment based on looks and stereotypes that may not be accurate.

        Exactly.

        And the same with thuggish appearing and acting people of other races.

        The differentiation is that blacks as a group are much more over-represented in thuggish appearance and behavior.   And their communities attract more cops because there is more crime… more calls from residents in those neighborhoods for police help.

        Again, I present to you Asians as a group.

        It is the refusal of you social justice types to accept this fact of differentiation that will prevent a coming together to solve the problems.

        The problems are two: cops too quick to use violence and deadly force, and the black community being far over-represented in crime and violence.  And a terrible symptom of this is more innocent or undeserving people being shot by cops… and blacks being over-represented.

    1. Tia Will

      Delia

      What Frankly seems to be claiming is that people should be judged on the basis of their “tribal affiliation”. What he cannot seem to appreciate is that it is just as ridiculous to judge an individual seen on the street dressed in a conventional manner and engaging in conventional activities as being a “thug” because of the color of their skin as it would be to see the same individual as likely to be a successful mogul based on the examples of successful blacks in your post.

      Yes, Frankly, I will stand by my claim that each individual must be judged on his or her own behaviors, not by any preconceived notion of characteristics they are likely to possess based on their race, or gender, or age, or any other characteristic over which they have no control. To think differently is to justify group punishment such as seen in this country when the Japanese were placed in concentration camps due to hysteria over their appearance, not on the basis of their individual loyalty.

      1. Jerry Waszczuk

        Tia

        These camps were not the concentration camps . Interment Camps . I was in interment camp communist Poland for few months .  Camp was located in regular prison in rural area in Mountains.  All prisoners were removed before we were locked up there . Three month was tough , rotten food and -5  temperature in cells  . After 3 month we got POW’s status and the International Red Cross show up from Switzerland with packages and doctors etc .  Thereafter cells were open for day time and we were allowed to see families and use civilian cloths  and food was better .

         

        1. Tia Will

          Jerry

          Regarding your post of 7/24 12:20

          Because physical conditions were worse in one set of camps in no way justifies the rounding up of innocent civilians in another setting. Perhaps that was not your intent but that is how I saw your post.

      2. Jerry Waszczuk

        Tia

        I was not trying to justify rounding up innocent people .  I am totally against wars if wars are  not in self defense of the country . Wars are most destructive , inhumane events where suffering of  innocents and massive killing are  beyond imagination and any horror.  Due to war hysteria it was great possibility  and it most likely would happen that the  agitated  mobs by war propaganda against Japaneses people would attack  them and would kill them . At that time in Europe the war was going on  full speed for almost two years and atrocities committed by agitated by war propaganda civilians are well know and documented . It would be a lot worse than interment camps . I think it was a general idea of government to send Japanese people to interment camps . The other reason was that government was preparing west coast  to defend the Japanese  invasion on the  west coast and was afraid that  some Japanese living on west cost will organize the 5th column  what translated to that Japanese folks will acting as spies  and saboteurs adding Japanese invaders. This happened in Europe in countries which had quite high German population and when Hitler invaded other countries  many of Germans living there  were acted as I described above . If it was wrong or right what American government did , is not for me to decide .  I hate wars .  I believe that money could better spent than killing other for other reason than defend the own country from invaders.

  9. Delia .

    Screw compliance.
    I just watched the newly released video of a Texas cop slamming a 26 year old black woman, a teacher, to the ground.  This is the final straw for me. I’m sick and tired of people saying there are two sides, that police have such a hard job, they have to make split second decisions,etc.
    Give me a break. Don’t take the job if you can’t handle it, pure and simple. No excuse for his behavior. What a d*ck.

    1. Frankly

      Thank the police unions for allowing the d*cks to stay on the force.  If you have any friends on the police force like I do, they will tell you that they work with a few of them that they think should not be cops.  But that they have job security under the collective bargaining labor agreement that the union negotiates.  This is where politics plays a role… those on the left afflicted with a hypersensitive reaction to perceptions of fairness and harm will support unions because otherwise they believe there will be unjust firings.   But like for every policy and law we implement, there are trade-offs for this… and one big one is that it becomes too difficult for management to make a case to get rid of a bad employee.  The worst of those being intelligent alpha types that corrupt an entire workforce culture.

      But getting back to the points I am making, let me clear up any misconception that I think there is zero racial bias in law enforcement.   I know there is.  And some of it is cops that are racists against blacks.  Those are the bad ones that should be fired.  There are not that many of them in my opinion… it depends on the actual department.  But if they are the alpha types, they will corrupt the young recruits that come in with a mindset of racial bias.

      And I agree that this has to stop.  But unless we improve the ability for management to easily remove the bad cops, we are all just shouting at a wall.  You cannot fix it with training when you have this counter of change resistance.  To change a workplace culture you have to be allowed to fire those that don’t buy-in to the changes.  You have to be allowed to remove those that are not a good fit for the new employee model you are targeting.

      I am not surprised that so many in Davis and posting on the VG don’t understand these points above or that are resistant to it.  The typical Davisite is a government employee used to contractual or legal job security protection.   The myth held is that without these things management would just fire people the do not like… in fact we would just see more bias in employment practices.  However it is a myth because federal labor laws, and more states too, protect from this type of thing.  But even if there does exist some risk of unfair employee treatment without unions and employee groups that collectively bargain for job security, it isn’t worth the trade-off problems we are seeing with so many hiring mistakes that cannot be corrected.

      Getting back to the point being glossed over my my liberal social justice friends (it is telling by the way).  Here is an article that covers it well.

      http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-are-so-many-black-americans-killed-by-police/

      And if the disparity is because there are relatively more police interactions with black people, because black people commit a disproportionately large share of reported crimes, then the answer could be to address the systemic causes of the crime disparity, including urban poverty. (No one said the solutions would be easy.)

      The last sentence is key.  I think the reason that some people ignore this point is that it requires they acknowledge that liberal policies of income redistribution are problematic.

      In this article is a reference to a (horrendously liberal-biased social science) concept of concentrated disadvantage.  http://www.citylab.com/housing/2013/07/persistent-geography-disadvantage/6231/

      About half of all black families have lived in the poorest American neighborhoods over the last two generations, compared to just 7 percent of white families. These figures indicate that neighborhood inequality is multigenerational, something that is passed down from parents to children in the same way that genetic background and financial wealth are transmitted across generations.

      Of course this article starts to suggest a doubling down on the same liberal policies that have proven failed… policies that force more housing integration.  Sure, like we don’t have that today with Section 8.

      But the point is made that the problems in the black community are largely economic and multi-generational.  And crime is much more prevalent in these communities.  And there will always be more police encounters in higher crime areas.  And cops develop a bias for criminal risk factors based on the reality on the ground.  And unfortunately it results in mistakes being made.

  10. Jerry Waszczuk

    I saw in Jackson . CA cop was pulling black women in convertible and he draw the gun walking to her car. I think,he  got excited  because she did not stop right away when he turns his lights on . I don’t know if the color of her skin was the factor or cop was young and nervous and overreacted.

    1. Frankly

      Just put that on the application?  “Check here if you are a low IQ, hyper-aggressive type.”

      Does this apply only to whites, or minorities too?

      And assuming a few get through because they may not check the box and it is not always easy to tell from interviews… and some would file discrimination lawsuits for being rejected because there was a suspicion they might be hyper aggressive… how then do we get them out of uniform once hired and we discover the problems?

      Oh, and one more thing… how do you suppose we might attract these high IQ passive types to the job?  Maybe this would be a good career for the average under-employed musician?

      1. Barack Palin

        Does this apply only to whites, or minorities too?

        Come on Frankly, that would be considered racism to hold out minorities for those reasons.

    2. Delia .

      Biddlin, I believe the minimum age should be 25, and minimum education an AA degree, preferably with psychology classes. Monthly psychiatric evaluations, too. Monthly sleep hygiene evals to make sure officers are not experiencing insomnia. Monthly urine tests for drugs, too.

  11. Tia Will

    Frankly

    Thank the police unions for allowing the d*cks to stay on the force.”

    Once again, your ideology limits your ability to see, or at least to express, the bigger picture. Unions do indeed make it harder to fire a poorly performing employee. But, unions are not the only impediment to getting ridding police departments of “bad apples”. Your posts seems to imply that management is never complicit in allowing “bad apples” to hold positions of power. And yet, what if the “bad apple” is the chief of a department, or police superintendent, or mayor of a city ?  Does it not occur to you that those at the top may be the one’s promoting a culture of violence, excessive use of force, and oppression ? Maybe some of these higher echelon bullies are those designing and choosing the training and setting the tone for their departments.

    1. South of Davis

      Frankly wrote:

      > Thank the police unions for allowing the d*cks to stay on the force.

      Then Tia wrote:

      > Unions do indeed make it harder to fire a poorly performing employee. 

      Thank you for agreeing with Frankly on the reason that 90% of the bad cops are still on the force (and letting us know that about 10% of the time there is another reason that the guys who should have never been cops/poor performers don’t get fired)…

      1. Tia Will

        South of Davis

        Please note that I did not make any suggestion at all about what percentage of blame could be laid at the door of members of any particular ideology. I would love to see documentation or statistics to support your 90 % vs. 10 % claim.

    2. Barack Palin

      Maybe some of these higher echelon bullies are those designing and choosing the training and setting the tone for their departments.

      I don’t think the Vanguard allows the term “bullies” to be used on this site.

      1. South of Davis

        BP wrote:

        > I don’t think the Vanguard allows the term “bullies” to be used on this site.

        The term “bullies” is OK on the Vanguard when talking about:

        Cops, Republicans, Trump Supporters or the evil people that want to stop the construction of “safe” spaces on college campuses.

        The tern “bullies” is NOT OK on the Vanguard when talking about:

        BLM Protesters, Democrats, Anti-Trump Mobs, or the people that “push” to get “safe” spaces built on college campuses…

  12. Tia Will

    SOD and BP

    If you believe that what you saying is true, then please post the reference ( Don will have flagged the comment) to any time that the word bully has caused a post to be withdrawn when used as a categorical descriptive and not as specific name calling of a specific individual. The word “bully” has been used as an adjective to describe behavior on playgrounds, at high schools, on college campuses and in adult life in numerous settings by posters on all sides of the political spectrum without having those posts censored. If you cannot refrain from making attacks on other individuals who post here, and one or more of your posts is pulled as not adhering to guidelines, please do not pretend that is the fault of the Vanguard, as the guidelines are easy to find and very easy to adhere to.

  13. Tia Will

    How can one do that if the post has been withdrawn?”

    Don  often leaves  the portions of a post that are not outside the guidelines. He always makes a notation that a post has been deleted. It would serve as confirmation that such a post would have existed.

    1. Barack Palin

       He always makes a notation that a post has been deleted. It would serve as confirmation that such a post would have existed.

      Wrong.  Posts often are just removed with no notation or anything, they just magically disappear into the ether.

       

      1. South of Davis

        BP wrote:

        > Posts often are just removed with no notation or anything,

        > they just magically disappear into the ether.

        I have had posts just go away (that you can’t find when you search the archives)…

        1. Barack Palin

          My occurances have nothing to do with any spam detection system.  I’ve made comments that disappear so my first thought is that they didn’t take so I repost, sometimes several times. At that point the moderator will then finally write that my posts have been removed.

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