A New Dawn for Hate?

Faget

By Heather L. Weaver

This morning, in Ogden, Utah, Aaron Feller McFarland and his husband, Nik McFarland, woke up to find the slurs “FAGET” and “HOMO DIE” emblazoned across their car in blood-red spray paint.

Yesterday, Nancy Leong experienced a more casual form of harassment. On her morning run in Denver, as a car whooshed by, a man screamed at her, “Build that wall!” Never mind that Nancy, an associate professor at the University of Denver Sturm College of Law, is an Asian American, born and raised in this country. Her brown skin and dark brown hair were all that were required to raise the ire of her harasser.

Aaron, Nik, and Nancy are not alone. A mere three days after the election, reports of harassment and violence directed at people of color, immigrants, LGBT people, Muslims, and others have been pouring in. Shaun King, the senior justice writer for the New York Daily News, has received dozens and dozens of reports of abuse and is chronicling them on Twitter. The Southern Poverty Law Center is also collecting reports of racist harassment, as are various news outlets.

The harassment and discrimination has been widespread, targeting people based on race, ethnicity, and national origin, as well as religion and sexual orientation. Not surprisingly, in light of promises to ban Muslims from our country and to single out American Muslims for surveillance, many of the victims have been Muslim. A San Diego State University Muslim student was robbed, for example, by two men who made comments about Donald Trump and Muslims. The student was wearing a hijab at the time.

Homo-dieThe reaction among affected communities runs the gamut. Some victims of these attacks are speaking out and inspiring others. At the same time, many people are fearful and unsure what to do.

Although there are no easy answers, one thing is clear: We can’t sit back and watch this become the new normal.

When the government violates constitutional and statutory rights, the path forward is much clearer: We take legal action to stop the violations and restore equal protection for all. Indeed, the ACLU has already made clear to President-elect Trump that we’ll see him in court if he tries to implement any of the unconstitutional policies he proposed during the campaign, many of which would harm the very people already suffering harassment days after the election. And, in that vein, we urge everyone to review our Know Your Rights resources, which cover a wide range of civil liberties, such as your rights when questioned by police or when protesting.

But what can we do when private citizens — emboldened by political leaders — travel down the reprehensible path of hurling bigotry at their neighbors?  When the harassment takes place in public schools and the work context, school officials and employers have an obligation to stop it because it is their responsibility to ensure that our schools and workplaces are safe for all. And when the harassment involves violence or threats of violence, law enforcement has a duty to intervene, no matter the race, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, or other identity of the perpetrator or victim. We are all entitled to bias-free, equitable police protection — a right that is more important now than ever.

Yet, even when such harassment does not take place in school or the workplace or does not involve physical violence, it can still exact an extraordinary human cost. Victims often experience the harassment as an attempt to intimidate them and to force them out of public spaces and social and political communities. This we cannot allow.

In some situations, when any of us are witnessing harassment as it is happening, we can stand up and help.  Earlier this year, French illustrator Marie-Shirine Yener sketched out a four-step plan to help bystanders of anti-Muslim harassment defuse the situation by engaging the victim in conversation and building a safe space for him or her. But, as some have pointed out, the intervention Yener proposes might not always work and could end up escalating some situations, so it has to be employed cautiously.

If this is indeed a new dawn for hate, then we must use the sunshine to our advantage. We must embrace the victims of harassment with warmth and love, and we must shine the brightest light possible on these acts of bigotry. We must encourage those targeted to keep documenting the harassment for the public record in any way they can — through Twitter, Facebook, or any other medium — and we must amplify their voices. When they don’t have the strength to document the harassment, we must (with their permission) do it for them. And we must find ways to speak out against and condemn such harassment: Every. Single. Time.

Will you join us in pledging to speak out against bigotry and harassment until the sun finally sets on a renewed wave of hate?  Make your commitment known in the comments!

Heather L. Weaver is the Senior Staff Attorney, ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief

About The Author

Disclaimer: the views expressed by guest writers are strictly those of the author and may not reflect the views of the Vanguard, its editor, or its editorial board.

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169 Comments

  1. Tia Will

    But what can we do when private citizens — emboldened by political leaders — travel down the reprehensible path of hurling bigotry at their neighbors? “

    Before those who routinely dismiss anything written by a member of the ACLU, I would like to point out that this exact process has already started. We had a blatant example of the kind of denial that this is occurring here on the Vanguard yesterday.

    I related an event that my daughter who teaches middle school science in Stockton had relayed to me. It involved one student asking her about our president elects new policies fearful that she or members of her family might be deported. Another student near at the timed chipped in with ” Don’t worry, you will be on the Trump train back to where you came from”.  I related the story as told to me. I was told by Jerry that I had made it up. BP agreed in effect asserting that we would see many more fabricated stories. Now I have my strengths and weakness and frequently fall short of my personal best, but the one thing that I do not do is lie. I can be wrong. I frequently make mistakes. But I do not lie. Lying destroys lives. It destroyed mine and those of my children and caused us a long, slow, but ultimately effective re build. I simply do not lie.  Even if you think that I might have a motive for fabrication since I post frequently here, ask yourself “what motivation would my own daughter have had to fabricate a story like this to tell me ?” We are already both as disappointed and sad as we are likely to be in our public lives. So what would she possibly have to gain ?

    I completely admit that bullying  targeting  those who are perceived as weak including minorities is not new. It was in full swing when I was in elementary school. But what we are seeing now is a difference in order of magnitude. Our president elect has elevated the lie to the point where he completely ignores having been captured on tape saying a definitive statement, and claims, despite the obvious evidence that, he never said that. Over and over he has been documented threatening various detrimental actions including physical violence and legal action against those who oppose him and who have less power. And this quintessential bully is who the electoral college will select to be our next leader.

    Again, I ask all of you to consider. If this is the kind of behavior that we have not only accepted as our norm, but now are seeing elevated to our highest position of role model and leader, do we really expect that we will not see an increased in these kinds of actions to promote fear and hatred ? After all, if it works for our president, maybe it will work for us too.

      1. hpierce

        Interesting, on many levels… the one I choose to address occurred in 1942, not 1932, but those are not mutually exclusive… Governor Earl Warren was considered a flaming liberal by some [as a  chief Supreme Court Justice], yet instrumental in making sure those of Japanese descent were sent to ‘internment’, or ‘relocation’ facilities… a number of kids I grew up with were the offspring of folk that met in those camps…

        Many Davis folk supported the ‘relocations’ at the time… “paranoia runs deep… into your hearts it will creep…”

        1. Marina Kalugin

          ask Mariko about what happened to her family….ask my friends who live in Woodland and in Davis…what happened to their families…

          ask and find out what happened to MY family in Manchuria…

          google manchuria and JAPANESE crimes…

          The hysteria is funded by those who will profit from the hysteria.

          The military, halliburton, and the prison guards..and especially their unions…..the dems who were upset and those who are on drugs anyway…

          Follow the money and learn the truth…it ain’t the Donald…but it could also be some in the ACLU…right?

          The Japanese would abduct white men off the streets never to be seen again…some relatives and many friends of my parents/grandparents disappeared in that manner…and it wasn’t the soviets either.

           

  2. Ron

    From article:  “A mere three days after the election, reports of harassment and violence directed at people of color, immigrants, LGBT people, Muslims, and others have been pouring in.”

    It’s unfortunate, to say the least.

    But, one thing that is often overlooked is that such harassment and violence is also directed at people of “no color”, as demonstrated by BP’s recent video links.  (Hatred and extreme violence based on nothing but “lack of color”.)  Trump is not “causing” people to do this.

    I have been personally subject to this type of hatred/violence in my younger years (based on “lack of color”), more than once.  I bear physical and emotional damage to this day, as a result. (And, experienced the constant threat and fear of it, going to public schools.)  It was not unusual, and predated Trump. I suspect that it changed my life in ways that can’t be fully measured.

    It always angered me whenever anyone said this was due to “prior racism”, which I was not responsible for (and did not even fully understand, at the time).  Such attitudes are harmful, and perhaps even fostered such hatred and violence.

      1. Ron

        Davis Progressive:  That’s probably true, at least to some degree.  I was shocked to see some of the behavior at Trump’s rallies.  (Including statements from the then-candidate, himself.)

        1. Barack Palin

          Ron, much if not most of that bad behavior at Trump rallies was precipitated by the left.  Check out the O’Keefe videos of Democrat operatives admitting that they paid militants to disrupt Trump rallies.

    1. hpierce

      Don’t think the president-elect “caused” anything… few sentient beings would blame him personally, nor would they ignore the fact that the rhetoric he used, did indeed help inflame latent emotions.  

      The president-elect is essentially powerless, unless he can persuade others… I don’t think anyone was persuaded by his words, unless by picking at scabs you believe he ‘persuaded’ the wound to bleed or ooze again.  

      His words of “healing” fall flat, indeed… he did his best to pick at scabs… a common trait among immature boys… did that in my youth, sometimes still do…

      Time will tell…

      BTW, if you keep picking at a scab, you might end up with a scar… I’ll leave to those with medical training to explain the implication of scars, depending where they are on the ‘body’.

      1. Tia Will

        Ron, DP and hpierce

        I agree with all three of you that our president elect is not the cause of these actions. However, in making them a part of his political strategy, employing them himself openly, and at large rallies encouraging this kind of behavior he is modeling it for others. A president has many roles, commander in chief, maker of key appointments, our representative to other nations…..and a a role model for our citizens. It is his choice to model this particular brand of behavior for which I find him culpable. He now has an opportunity to disavow his previous positions and actions and explicitly call on our citizens to stop these activities immediately.

        Like hpierce, I will wait and see…… perhaps with less hope than many.

        1. Ron

          Tia:

          I am not disagreeing with you, regarding Trump.

          However, the reason that I posted is because it seems that some “overlook” the fact that hatred and violence based on skin color (or other similar criteria) is not “owned” by one particular group.

          Look at the wording of the article (and perhaps your own comments?) if you doubt that some (purposefully?) overlook this.  (And, it’s quite harmful.) It is not the first time I’ve observed these types of thoughts (not just on the Vanguard).

        2. Davis Progressive

          tia – agreed on that.  not exonerating trump, only pointing out that he didn’t create the problem, he exploited it.

          ron – what’s missing from your comment is an understanding of power dynamics.

        3. hpierce

          Tia, the only reason I am hopeful is that he will have to deal with a split Republican majority in both houses… many of whom either opposed or refused to endorse him… unless he can convince folk of integrity, he will be “impotent”… he won’t get the majorities he needs with ‘campaign rhetoric’.

          Just like most bullies actually suffer from low-self-esteem, or other fears, needing to make themselves ‘appear big’, or instill fear in others, most those who indulge in sexual abuse/impropriety question their own sexuality, and feel (pun intended) a need to prove their “sexual”-hood to ‘prove themselves’…

        4. Ron

          Davis Progressive:

          “ron – what’s missing from your comment is an understanding of power dynamics.”

          Perhaps you could explain that, in regard to the physical and psychological injuries that I endured.  (I certainly experienced the “power” of the majority, in those situations.)  At the time, I was already aware of (and angered by) the attitude which excused such actions.

          But, what I’ve come to realize (at a later point in my life) is that I was born into a system in which my parents (and those before them) had opportunities which allowed me to be “born into” a better life than some others.  Perhaps that’s what you mean?

          The reason that I haven’t previously made many comments regarding this subject is because I don’t think it’s helpful to cite violence by one particular group, or another.  I’d rather focus on efforts to solve the problem. But, that won’t be accomplished by “downplaying” or disregarding reality, or blaming one particular group as the sole source of racial hatred. 

        5. South of Davis

          DP wrote:

          > ron – what’s missing from

          > your comment is an

          > understanding of power dynamics.

          I’m wondering if DP feels that an out of work white construction worker living in his parents double wide has more “power” than an Asian law professor (who happens to look Hispanic).

  3. Frankly

    Here they go again doing the same things that got them into this mess while ignoring the real mess.

    We are supposed to believe that the election of Trump is going to turn back the clock on civil rights… the same civil rights brought to us primarily from Republicans.

    All of this would be laughable if we didn’t see the destructive result of this long-standing tired old leftist hogwash.

    The REAL fear that drove many people to the polls to vote for Trump has been manifest in the rioting in the liberal urban domain.  The lawlessness.  The disregard for others property, safety and life.  The political correctness demands run amuck.  The intolerance for any words and ideas not approved by those shrinking wallflower passive aggressive cry-bullies demanding “safe places” to plot their next tantrum of destruction.

    The DNC and their now legendarily-proven corrupt media pals came unglued with Trump said he wouldn’t immediately accept the results if Hillary won… yet there are thousands of crying liberals destroying cities around the country refusing to accept the election results… and not a peep of criticism.

    What we have seen is 20+ years of the political left Baby Boomers doubling down on their strategy to foment hatred of any and all that don’t frog-march within their ideological collective.  They have created millions of little anarchist monsters that are the true threat to this country, not the few idiot racists that flap their gums.

    1. Ron

      Frankly:  “The DNC and their now legendarily-proven corrupt media pals came unglued with Trump said he wouldn’t immediately accept the results if Hillary won… yet there are thousands of crying liberals destroying cities around the country refusing to accept the election results… and not a peep of criticism.”

      There is (some) truth in what you’re stating.  (And, I’d suggest that it’s the same attitude that only focuses on hatred and violence when it’s perpetrated by a particular group.)

  4. Frankly

    By the way, this is all happening under Barack Obama’s watch.  Donald Trump is not the President.  Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are directly responsible for this as is the mainstream liberal media for their unbridled hatred leveled at the candidate and his followers.  What has the President done to calm this nation?  Not a thing.  I think he likes what he is seeing.  He likes it when Portland burns.

    The legacy of Barack Obama was already poor, but now it is trash.  He will be seen as the worst thing that happened to this country… the most divisive and damaging President ever.  He fomented and widened the divisions because that was his and the DNC’s political strategy.  Divide and conquer.  Right out the Rules for Radicals bible.  He fomented the hate that we see, not Donald Trump.  I expect Donald Trump to start healing this nation once in office.

    1. Ron

      Frankly:  “I think he likes what he is seeing.  He likes it when Portland burns.”

      I doubt that.  But, I think that he, and perhaps Clinton and others, could probably do more to help focus energy in a more constructive manner (for next time).

    2. Davis Progressive

      my problem with your comment is that you are putting partisan blame on this.  a more objective understanding is that this was a process.  southern elites maintained control by pitting poor whites against blacks. the loss of the manufacturing sector was a long process overseen by both parties.  the displacement of working class whites by people of color has occurred over decades.  the parties have shifted in their own battles.  what has happened is not the result of one person, but rather the colliding of electoral interests over time.

      1. Frankly

        I agree that the economic destruction of the working class was a joint effort by elites in both Parties, but then the Great Recession and a President that did about everything he could to stunt the recovery that would have helped the working class… at a time when he should have been doing the opposite.  And then he says things like “they sure love their guns and religion” as one of many subtle and not so subtle pokes.

        If Obama was the great uniter claimed by his followers then we would not be seeing this social meltdown.

    3. Don Shor

      I think he likes what he is seeing. He likes it when Portland burns.

      This is trolling. It is intentionally provocative, outlandish rhetoric intended to foment hostile replies.

      President Obama:

      “That’s what the country needs – a sense of unity; a sense of inclusion; a respect for our institutions, our way of life, rule of law; and a respect for each other,” said Obama. “I hope that he maintains that spirit throughout this transition, and I certainly hope that’s how his presidency has a chance to begin.”

      Clinton also called for a “peaceful transition of power”, urging: “We don’t just respect that. We cherish it. It also enshrines the rule of law; the principle we are all equal in rights and dignity; freedom of worship and expression. We respect and cherish these values, too, and we must defend them.

      “We have seen that our nation is more deeply divided than we thought but I sill believe in America and if you do then we must accept this result,” she added in an emotional concession speech. “We owe him an open mind and the chance to lead.”

  5. Tia Will

    Ron

    Look at the wording of the article (and perhaps your own comments?) if you doubt that some (purposefully?) overlook this.  (And, it’s quite harmful.) It is not the first time I’ve observed these types of thoughts (not just on the Vanguard).”

    I realize that you are relatively new to our community and perhaps to our Vanguard community as well. During multiple instances of civil disobedience whether they have been inner city disruptions or armed take overs of public lands, I have been consistent in my denunciation of the use of force or threat thereof to obtain political goals. I have tried to be clear that I do not condone these kinds of behaviors or the deliberate denial that our “own side” also engages in them regardless of the political persuasion of the perpetrator. I hope this clarifies my position so that you will be assured that I do not see this as a problem coming from just one side of the spectrum as some posters clearly do in their own words.

    1. Ron

      Tia:

      I realize that you don’t condone such behavior, and I don’t have a quote from you which states otherwise.  However, there is a general focus (by liberals?  those on the left?) to exclusively focus on racial hatred and violence perpetrated against “those of color” (presumably, by “those of no color”).  Not much focus on the news report (and video) showing a white man getting the sh*t beat out of him (and nearly killed?), solely for having “no color”.  (Just one example of selective focus.)

      I avoided watching that video for awhile, and then could only watch part of it. It is too painful to watch.

      From article:  “A mere three days after the election, reports of harassment and violence directed at people of color, immigrants, LGBT people, Muslims, and others have been pouring in.”

      (Not crazy about the “color” descriptions that have recently arisen.)

       

      1. Tia Will

        Ron

        I realize that you may not have seen my posts on other types of discrimination. Specifically I have previously pointed out and fought very hard against discrimination against males in my profession. The most straightforward example of this was when, while on the administrative hiring team we had a group of applicants only one of which was male. Objectively by his qualifications he was agreed to be clearly the best candidate. However, it was openly expressed by some on our team that the next best qualified candidate should be chosen because she was a woman and “that it what our patients prefer”. First, it is not what the majority of our patients prefer. This is demonstrable since as many women are deeply attached to their male gynecologist as to their female doctors. What was really at play here is the belief  amongst some female doctors that female doctors as a group have to work harder. I stood my ground about hiring the best qualified individual and he was hired and is clearly a valuable asset to our group.

        I do not condone discrimination on the basis of any type of biologic grouping. Individual behavior, accomplishment and character are the only legitimate criteria for judgement in my opinion.

        1. Ron

          Tia – thanks for clarifying, and for providing that example.

          In general, I stand by my comment regarding “those of the left, liberals” focusing solely on violence committed by whites against non-whites.  (For example, refer to the quote from the article, above.)

          And again, I don’t think it’s particularly useful to single out a particular group (in this case, “those without color”) as being the sole perpetrators of hatred and violence based on skin color (or similar criteria).

          Regarding your particular example, I’m not seeing the connection between your peers’ statements that “this is what our patients prefer”, vs. a “belief amongst some female doctors that female doctors as a group have to work harder”.  Perhaps what you actually witnessed is a form of discrimination, by those “in power”.  But, whatever the reason, it’s admirable that you stood up for a decision based on qualifications.

          (As a side note, I have to admit that I’d probably prefer a female gynecologist, if I were female. At least, until I became familiar with the individual. But, I’m not sure how I’d react.)

    2. Marina Kalugin

      Actually, Dr. Will, Ron has much more sense on many things than you do….and frankly, not the sockpuppet, he learns much faster also..

      When I post something he is able to follow the string…while I have had to beat you with evidence for days on end, and you cannot see past your rose colored glasses….right?

      That may be because, I would expect that he did his elementary education long before you did….

      I would expect that he is more my age….right?  who knows

       

       

      1. Tia Will

        Marina

        Actually, Dr. Will, Ron has much more sense on many things than you do….and frankly, not the sockpuppet, he learns much faster also..

        Actually Marina, I believe that you confuse the word “learns” with agrees with my point of view.

  6. Marina Kalugin

    What can one expect, when many in this country are poisoned from birth or in the womb?

    The mothers who are drug addicts and the fathers who are addicts and the babies get few options.

    One of the reasons that the children of Davis do better than in West Sac, is because they are not fluoridated 24/7.   Many of the parents in those areas are not aware of the harms of the toxic hazardous waste chemical byproducts from aluminum processing.

    In poor areas, children are sick from very early on… then they have ADHD and other issues due to the poor food provided to them by the USDA>…and so it goes.

    The environment is toxic….microban and other antimicrobials which result in MRSA and other super bugs in their environment…..

    Their parents may unemployed on the dole or not or underemployed…they have to go to doctors which take Medi-Cal….and those doctors make sure the children get their toxic vaccines or else they will not be getting their free milk and such.   Those doctors are now getting $40K bonuses if ALL their clients are fully vaccinated…that includes flu shot (which includes Thimerasol) at age 6 months and annually thereafter.

    When I have shared this on other threads, some thought it was lies and off topic..

    Frankly, and not the sockuppet who posts here, that is the truth.

    And, the basis of hate is actually rooted in the decisions made by BO and the dems….self absorbed folks who promised to make a difference and didn’t….

    Look around you…the gaps are getting wider…in income…in achievements….and so on.

    Look at the DETROIT water issues…

    Follow the money and learn the truth.

    Donald will stomp out hate, by ensuring ALL have clean water, decent nontoxic food and real jobs…

    Wait and watch and participate in calming down the masses….

    LOOK at what happened in Germany and look at what happened in Russia.

    And, you may be all wrong on why the Hitler in Germany and the Jews of Russia were unhappy and what occurred as a result..

    When one cannot even provide clean water, clean food and nutrition for their families crimes skyrocket…when one has no work, and a family to feed, they may steal….and when one gets stopped for DWB, then one can run…and be killed right?   even if they did not a thing wrong.

    Hate is because those with means like Bill Gates and others have it all and do not do enough….or not enough of the correct things….

    Folks like the Obamas got their hands up…and didn’t reciprocate….

    That is why the BO and wifey who was mostly a stay at home mom, and they took vacations year round, did NOTHING for the generations of black men living in poor areas who have not worked in decades perhaps and in generations for sure….
    have many more millions than before they started working as the Pres and Fist lady.

    while their children got private schools, Enagic Kangen Water, all organics etc….while the children in DC get common core, toxic water and food, and so on…..

    have a good day everyone…enjoy the Saturday or do something useful…you may get a clue as time goes by….

     

     

     

    1. Tia Will

      One of the reasons that the children of Davis do better than in West Sac, is because they are not fluoridated 24/7.   Many of the parents in those areas are not aware of the harms of the toxic hazardous waste chemical byproducts from aluminum processing.”

      Oh, for heaven’s sake. There is not one shred of evidence to support this with these demographic groups. If this is the kind of “evidence” to which you are referring, it is no wonder that I do not “learn” quickly. I am not in the habit of adjusting my beliefs based on wild claims with no substantiation.

       

  7. Marina Kalugin

    I marched with MLK and I marched at People’s Park in Berkeley…and I marched with my black friends in Oak Park also…

    I marched at Lincoln HS in the 60s with my black friends from the YMCA>..

    I cut school and hitchhiked there from JHS>>>

    also later when there were hardly any blacks at Lowell HS>>.and the few were too busy getting into Harvard or Yale…

    I am beyond marching, except against Monsanto on fifth in Davis and in Sac……so far that has never  been violent.

    Start following the money and learn the truth,…it ain’t what you think   🙂

  8. Marina Kalugin

    Davis is unique…it has been a safe haven for weird people like me…and so many others…it was the first UC to make a safe place for the LGBT crowd…and for Jews…and in the 70s for Christian Persians from what is now known as Iran.

    And, even then, there have been some issues.

    Do not blame the donald for any of this either…

    Dr. Linda Katehi made huge strides with her Latina/o Chicana/o and native peoples center.

    For women for STEM and for all children of every race and color..and creed….right?

    She was the best chancellor since the 70s…since 1970 that is…

    And, look what was done to her….she is happier now…and we are only going to get mealy mouthed yes people now who may even apply…the politically correct and perhaps savvy ostrich people…right?

     

     

    1. Alan Miller

      Davis is unique…it has been a safe haven for weird people like me…

      Thankfully, Davis has also been a haven for many more weird people who are nothing like you.

  9. Misanthrop

    It doesn’t matter who is responsible for inciting this violence but it matters whether or not our leaders condemn it and use the weight of the law and moral authority to insist it stop. That is the what didn’t happen in 1932. In fact the violence was continuously encourage and exploited, ultimately leading to the holocaust. My fear is that Trump won’t tell people to stop it and it will continue to get worse.

  10. Tia Will

    Marina

    I marched with MLK”

    And do you suppose that MLK would be proud of the election of a man who publicly states that he does not believe that an American judge can be objective and/or fair specifically because of his Hispanic heritage ?

  11. Tia Will

    hpierce

    Tia, the only reason I am hopeful is that he will have to deal with a split Republican majority in both houses… many of whom either opposed or refused to endorse him… unless he can convince folk of integrity, he will be “impotent”… he won’t get the majorities he needs with ‘campaign rhetoric’.

    Just like most bullies actually suffer from low-self-esteem, or other fears, needing to make themselves ‘appear big’, or instill fear in others, most those who indulge in sexual abuse/impropriety question their own sexuality, and feel (pun intended) a need to prove their “sexual”-hood to ‘prove themselves’… “

    I agree with most of your post and want to thank you for this little ray of light. I am starting to come out of a very dark place, which is foreign to me as I am almost always optimistic. So I want to thank you personally for helping me even in very small ways, to work my way through this to a place where I can walk in hope.

    1. Ron

      Tia:

      I’m actually less worried about Trump (whom I liken to “Fred Flintstone”), than I am about Pence (who has a much more reasonable personality).  This could happen, if Trump is impeached at some point by his own party (as some seem to be predicting). (By the way, Pence did much better in the VP debate than Kaine.)

        1. Ron

          hpierce:  Because Pence seems more conservative than Trump (and has more support among the party that both belong to).  And, anything that Pence might do will not be scrutinized as much by the media (and those upset with Trump, in general).

          Trump has staked out some conservative positions. But, in the end, I suspect that he’s more of a “deal-maker”, and less driven by ideology. Some of what he says goes against BOTH parties and sounds appealing, at least on a superficial level. He is speaking to a group of people who have been largely ignored by both parties.

    1. Tia Will

      BP

      Here’s a link to one false accusations”

      I do not deny that there may be some false accusations. I do not see why you cannot admit that there may also be some true ones, as in the incident about which I posted.

  12. Tia Will

    Ron

    Regarding your particular example, I’m not seeing the connection between your peers’ statements that “this is what our patients prefer”, vs. a “belief amongst some female doctors that female doctors as a group have to work harder”.  Perhaps what you actually witnessed is a form of discrimination, by those “in power”.  But, whatever the reason, it’s admirable that you stood up for a decision based on qualifications.”

    Actually Ron, I posted this as was an example of how a decision based on bias can be justified intellectually as not being based on race or religion or gender, but rather on some other factor. The woman who was the strongest proponent for hiring the “second best” is a close friend of mine. I fully appreciate that she did not perceive her own bias. But then, she was not around in medicine 30 years ago when I was being discriminated against because I am a woman.

    I have stated on multiple occasions that I would like to see a non biased, qualification based process be adopted throughout all aspects of our society.  I would like to see applications blinded to name and gender with only the facts of qualifications listed initially. There is a model for this that has been adopted by a number of orchestras where auditions are held with the applicant behind a screen so that the individuals making the hiring decision cannot detect the gender, age or race of the applicant. This process is well documented as resulting in greater diversity and greater quality of  musicians since the decision is being made on the basis of skill alone, not bias whether overt or subconscious.

    1. hpierce

      Let’s see… he kept the kids on campus, alerted administrators and PD, and a twitter account that might actually have been abbreviated from, “if you need to, you can say…” [insert twittered quote] should be surely sufficient reason, in BP’s view at least, to ensure we don’t have someone named Morales (think about the likely origins of that name, linguistically, and ethnically) as a Principal… let’s just put anyone with a hispanic surname on administrative leave while facts are being checked…

      And all DHS students who went off-campus, when PD was alerted, and PD helped keep them safe during their extra-curricular excursion, should immediately expelled, and any teacher/administrator/etc. with any connection, should lose their positions as well, right, BP?

      [Actually, would have had more respect for the DHS students had they protested Friday, a school holiday. As it is, I hope the State understands that DHS should lose a day of ADA support for all those students…]

      1. Barack Palin

        Hpierce, the principal in this case could’ve been a white privileged hetero male with the last name of Smith and I would have the same opinion.  He’s the principal and is supposed to be a role model.  This nation is fairly evenly split politically and to say f—Donald Trump is way over the top for any principal.  As far as things being doctored, Morales admitted to saying it.  The district superintendent put him on leave for saying it.  Would you be so forgiving if he had said f—Obama or f— Hillary if she had won?  I say f— you for insinuating that my conclusion had anything to do with the principal’s ethnicity.

        1. Ron

          BP:  You are right about this, except that (in my opinion) it is not something he should be fired for.  (Perhaps it could turn into a “teachable moment” for the principal, teachers, and students.)

          I shudder to think if there was a student who witnessed that, whose family supported Trump.

          Of course, it is not something that should be continuously tolerated. Sounds like the district is handling it appropriately, so far.

        2. Barack Palin

          Ron, I’m sure by now almost every student in the high school has either seen the video or knows what their principal said at this rally.  So just by the law of averages their has to be very many students and/or student’s families that voted  for or supported Trump.  But that really doesn’t matter, he should never make a statement like that even if 100% of the student body agreed with him.  Totally an unprofessional move by this principal and imo of the magnitude that he should no longer be deemed ethically suited to be the principal of any school.

        3. Ron

          BP:  “But that really doesn’t matter, he should never make a statement like that even if 100% of the student body agreed with him.”

          Agreed. And, after reading the article again, I’m not sure that the principal knows this (even now).

        4. Tia Will

          BP

           He’s the principal and is supposed to be a role model. “

          I could not agree more. And we now have a new president elect. Is he not also supposed to be a role model ?  Do you believe that his comments about sexually assaulting women and doubting the capabilities of judges based on nothing more than their ethnic background are good examples for the youth of our country ?

        5. tribeUSA

          Tia–the judge you are referring to is (or was) as I recall, a member or active supporter of La Rasa. La Rasa promotes open borders and amnesty. Trump’s views are well known to be the opposite. It seems to me the judge has a real conflict of interest in impartially adjudicating cases involving Mr. Trump. You are simply parroting the media that he made a racially prejudiced statement; it is more accurately a statement that is a legitimate concern about a potential conflict of interest.

          I do agree that his taped comments about some women were extremely crass and even ‘deplorable’; however this was a private taping not meant for public consumption, and he has not endorsed such a language and attitude publicly (and has even apologized for it). Look at his wife and daughters; they seem like a close family and they are healthy people operating at a high level; I think he treats them well (the actions that can be inferred from such healthy relationships speak louder than crude and crass bullsh…ing with the boys). I don’t think you will see a misogynist attitude in Trump’s tenure as pres.

    2. quielo

      “We are all entitled to bias-free, equitable police protection — a right that is more important now than ever.”

       

      Unless of course you are white and then other ethnic groups are free to insult you and call your coded insults like “gentrifier” and tell you you should be ashamed of yourself and you “privilege”.

      1. Marina Kalugin

        truly clueless, Q, I am a white senior citizen and was arrested for a “hit and run” when I was in shock and the dispatcher told me I could leave the scene with my husband who came to drive me home…right?

        CHP and the Woodland Police and the others who have made victims out of the innocents, are not who you think they are.

        My white sons had their own issues when they were innocent…and so did many youngsters who happened to be their friend and were of color…

        I would bet money that more people in the local jails are innocent and that the criminals on the other side of the bars put them there….

        used up all my savings over and over for those who were wrongly accused…in my family and dear friends…. as a single mother working a non-management job at UCD…right?

        and if one could truly figure out how come there were so many “unexplained” deaths witin hours at the Yolo County jail, it is likely they were innocent and murdered by crooked prison guards, right? or by the gang members who really committed the crimes..and so on…

  13. Frankly

    Have you been reading what Trump is being quoted as saying now? It is clear that he did what he did to win president elect, and now he is shifting in rhetoric to do what he think he needs to do to win as President.

    For example, after speaking to President Obama he is indicating that he might be in favor of retaining two provisions of Obamacare:

    – preventing insurance companies from refusing, rejecting and gouging people that have pre-existing conditions

    – requiring insurance companies to continue to be required to allow chidren up to 26 years old to stay on their parents policy.

    Also, when asked about if he would assign a special prosecutor to go after Hillary Clinton for her email server, he said that he had not given it any thought because he is too focused on priorities to benefit the American people.

    I think the unhinged left is making a big mistake in their river of tears and angry, destructive tantrums over Trump being elected.  There is no doubt that Trump used divisive rhetoric during the election to appeal to a voter base.  So did the Hillary Clinton campaign.  So did the Obama campaigns.  The difference appears to be that Trump, unlike Obama, isn’t going to stay in campaign mode.  He is going to shift to become a President that supports Americans.

    I think Trump will be a more inclusive President than Barack Obama.  I really do.  And this point leads me to conclude what I knew all along about the qualifications for President… and for leadership in general.  Yes, there is a need for knowledge of a multitude of national issues and Trump is much weaker than both Obama and Clinton since they are professional politicians.  However, what sets Trump apart from Obama at least (unknown about Hillary Clinton) is his genuine deep-set self-confidence.  It is a human development requirement to be an effective leader.  Obama was not.  Is not.  He is a great personality.  A great orator.  He is a solid academic thinker.  A top-shelf technocrat.  But he is fundamentally insecure.  Maybe this has something to do with his upbringing lacking a committed and dedicated father. Maybe it is that he lacks other worldly experience other than education, activism and politics.  Maybe it is just his personality.  But as someone very tuned into the personal qualification for effective leadership, it was clear to me from early in his campaign that Obama was a person that learned to talk-well to mask his personal insecurities.

    Since more people are prone to owning personal insecurities, and because he is so likeable and charismatic, I think Obama was easy to like and for some even love.   However, he turned out to be everything I expected him to be… constantly jabbing people that disagreed with him and prone to talking down to them while constantly campaigning for approval from his base. And as happens with peope prone to insecurity… making bad decisions and mistakes.

    We will see how Trump does, but so far he is exceeding my expectations as America’s president elect.

    1. Tia Will

      Frankly

      So please correct me if I am misinterpreting what you just said. But what I heard is that you think that it is fine to say whatever to say what you want regardless of whether it is all a bunch of lies, and then make an immediate turn around thereby selling out your supporters who really believed you would do what you said once you are elected ?  Do I have that right ?

      1. Frankly

        Give me a break Tia.  First, your “bunch of lies” is hyperbole or at least breathtaking in its shallowness.  Trump put forth an entire platform of ideas.  In fact, he did much more of that than did Hillary Clinton at least early in the campaign.  And then both of them engaged in trying to tear down the other.  There was more of that on the Clinton side… in fact every one of her limited number of press conference were focused on telling everyone how bad of a person Trump was… and very little on her ideas to fix problems and take the country in a new direction.

        It is completely common for candidates to appeal to their base in the primary and then the general, and then shift to a more inclusive platform of real governance.  In fact that would be the preference.  Otherwise it would be like Barack Obama striving to make only his base happy… and you see the results of that.

        And “what difference does it make” if the President moves to the center and governs more inclusively?  Is your ideological bent and need to have your side win more important than this?  Seems to be the case.

        1. Tia Will

          Frankly

          “And “what difference does it make” if the President moves to the center and governs more inclusively?  Is your ideological bent and need to have your side win more important than this?  Seems to be the case.”

          There would be nothing at all wrong with this if it were done on the basis of honest change of conviction based on a careful consideration of new information. Based on expediency which he has demonstrated over and over again in his disclaimers of previously held positions and denial of even statements that he clearly made as demonstrated on tape…..not so much so.

    2. hpierce

      Until mid January, frankly, it is still rhetoric… whether said in the primaries, the general election, or now…  still, “rhetoric”… we’ll see “where’s the beef” [or kale, or whatever] in late January, at the earliest…

    1. Tia Will

      Jerry

      Now that also sounds about right. When you have nothing of substance to say, you can always just call someone a name because that contributes so much to a rational conversation.

      1. Jerry Waszczuk

        Tia

        I would live for 30 years in communist country like myself than you would not support any politicians like Hillary  Clinton or Barak Obama  or Janet Napolitano . Trust me .  Trump at this point is the best to  the next President  to stop the  expansion of the  communist ideology in the  United States   and to to  prevent Bolshevik revolution under the  umbrella of the Democratic Party .  The 50 millions people on the food stamps , millions on welfare , millions of illegals, millions unemployed   and millions brainwashed by political correctness is a  perfect base to for the communist dictatorship . Next 10 or 15 fifteen of such leadership like Obama or Clinton offered   would cause that the  taxpayers would be not able to support these 50 million on food stamps, millions on welfare and millions of illegals and millions unemployed and system will  collapse .It would not be a  second great depression but bloody uprising of these who one day would not receive their food stamps , welfare and unemployment benefits . If it would happen than you  be left with nothing and you greeting  your friends and coworkers hello comrades instant of David or  Kathy . Today what we see on the streets is instigated communist anarchy instigated by view like yours and few others views on this forum .   I ma not calling you name , Communist is not the name . Communist and communism are  symbols of   destruction and symbol  of death of  100 million human beings.  The millions which were called by Clinton deplorable decided.  God Bless America and new President  Donald Trump .

        1. Tia Will

          Jerry

          First I want to say that I appreciate your time taken to post a response after having told Marina not to waste her time. To me this indicates that you are still willing to engage.

           Trust me .  Trump at this point is the best to  the next President “

          There is a key problem here. It is your use of the words “Trust me” used in much the same way as the president elect has used them. The problem is that in this sense, I do not “trust you”. Why not ?  For the simple reason that you have already stated something that I know is incorrect. Not evil, not stupid, not ignorant…..simply incorrect. I am speaking about something I know to be incorrect because you said it about me, and I know it to be in error. You stated quite clearly that I am a “communist”. But this is not true. I do not believe that I can accurately be classified politically but if one was insistent upon trying, I believe that social democrat would probably be closest.

          I find individuals who believe that the know my mind better than I know it myself to be dangerous. The next step in this line of perceived superiority of thought is , because I am ignorant of myself, it would be better for them to just tell me what to do. I am frequently accused of this, inaccurately. I do not believe that I have the right to make up any one else’s mind for them. For evidence check out my article on Transitions in Medicine.

          Unfortunately, because of my professional field, I frequently find myself told by politicians, both right ( the abortion issue) and left ( the state mandated letter on notification of certain mammography findings) that they know better than I how to best serve and inform my patients. So I am immediately cautions when someone else, with a vision very different from either their own, or what they believe to be mine, tells me, “Trust me”.

           

  14. mercy4all

    Here is what i see.  First its  nice to hear the voice of Frankly and hopefully a few more like him.  Any way when a misbehaving child at school says something hateful and wrong that’s what it is hateful and wrong.  But this can and must be handled immidiately and unequivocally.  Like you call the child on it loudly and in front of the class, ask for an apology and whether it comes or not refer it to the principal.    If its more than an isolated act of immature stupidity at school call an assembly.  Make it clear what is and what is not acceptable.  But remember that when discussions arise over all of these issues all sides get a turn at the microphone.

    But folks whats happening in Portland and all across America is shocking hateful violent and criminal.  And i don’t see much on the left condemning it strongly enough or often at all.  Any attempt to explain let alone justify such outrage must be condemned openly and forcefully and if the cowardly criminals who are destroying property and attacking bystanders can be arrested throw the book at them (even though i’ll probably be appointed to represent them which i’ll do with every once of  effort i have.)  These acts of the few sometimes and the many all too often have 3 examples you might want to consider.  Recently in a march down a road with the banner “Black lives matter” at the front a significant number of marchers chanted “Pigs in a blanket fry them  like bacon”  and i heard virtually no voice on the progressive left condem it.  In a large urban city yesterday 4 african american hoodlums surrounded a man trying to get into his car.  Believing him to be a trump  supporter they beat and kicked him over several minutes almost to  death.  Apprehended  almost  immidiately  one  of  these  idiots had actually filmed it together with chants of “you voted for trump,  kick his ass, beat him down.” Finally in Fergeson Missouri a middle age african american woman had her hair salon burned down and looted by members of her own community once when Michael Brown was killed and once when an interracial grand jury refused to indict the officer.    I saw no one showing up the next day hammer ,  nail and lumber in hand to help her rebuild.

    You can, and all of us will analyze and obsess over why Trump won. Thats a discussion for another set of blogs.  But one thing makes me  hope.    Say what you will, Trump ran a brialliabnt campaign. And he figured out that Hillary would never go into small states, especially in border states around the deep South really spend much time convincing the Bern folks of an authenticity and honesty she either didn’t possess or couldn’t sell.   Trump saw it differently.  He went into inner cities and african American churches and asked these areas, “hey how’s that democratic war on poverty been going for you folks for 50 yrs as you can’t even walk your kids to your crumbling schools without being shot.” He banked on just a few precincts in just a few swing states putting him over.  While Hillary surrounded herself with the progressive superstar left Donald said he didn’t need Beyoncé, Bruce Springsteen or Madona.  All he needed was everyday ordinary americans.  Wow.  I wince at much of what he says and much of what he promises.  But i wonder,i really do, he answers to no one but himself.  Yep “Somthings happening here, what it is ain’t exactly clear.”  To be continued as is the marvel of the american experience.

     

     

    1. hpierce

      Seems like you are new here… WELCOME!

      Also like your “screen name”… fits with my spirituality… ‘mercy’ is something we do not “deserve”, but is afforded us by others… a true ‘gift’… that should not be taken lightly, and which needs to be accepted, to complete the transaction…

      By nature and training, am unqualified to wax philosophic, yet I do, from time to time…

      But not right now…

       

    2. Tia Will

      Mercy4all,

      But folks whats happening in Portland and all across America is shocking hateful violent and criminal”

      With this statement I agree. Any expression of any emotion involving violence and criminality ( or the threats thereof, is criminal an morally wrong. And I agree that the left is not calling this out adequately just exactly as the right did not choose to call out and condemn our president elects use of pandering to and exhorting his followers to such tactics during the presidential contest.

      What I see too frequently from both sides is the willingness to condemn a behavior of our opponents while minimizing, justifying, or just plain denying the obvious same behaviors on our own. No one has covered themselves in glory in recent and ongoing events.

  15. Marina Kalugin

    JW, I am never wasting my time…. I am not speaking to the doorknob nor the train tracks, I am enlightening the hundreds or thousands who read and learn and do not post…some because of the powers that be scrubbing away on this DV site…

    some may actually go to pub med and find out that the ADA is the laughing stock of the civilized planet on the toxic fluoride…right?  one could hope so…

    Matt Williams did, on the Water board, and the younger Wolk, who fell too far from the tree only listed to old “experts” in town… the ones who accept Delta Dental and have to keep their mouths shut….no matter what they think in real life….

    1. South of Davis

      BP wrote:

      > A new dawn for more hate from the

      > left, Woodside High School girl beaten

      > for supporting Trump

      Woidside High has been a powder keg for years with lots of kids (that were not smart enough to get in to Menlo) that live in $10 million dollar homes going to class with kids (who’s parents have to hide from the INS) that live with another family in a crappy RC apt.

      1. hpierce

        Ahhh.. you too know the Peninsula… M-A was a ‘tough’ school even back in the late 60’s, early 70’s … East Palo Alto was “interesting” then… Atherton and Woodside (and main part of Palo Alto) were the “rich sectors” then… and very ‘pompous’… interesting to see how things have apparently “morphed”…

        We left the Peninsula in the late 70’s… too many very poor and very rich enclaves… Davis was much cheaper for housing, and a better place to raise a family… not for the schools, per se, (had great schools in San Mateo), but for the economics and other “things”…

        1. Marina Kalugin

          my uncle lived in the only luxury high rise on the border of MP and Atherton…university and Valparaiso….

          some decades before m uncle moved there from Wisconsin, my brother attended Menlo School….the private school affiliated with the college….he was not there that long…

          he had already attended different schools in SF< and then boarding school up in Canada…some may have heard of Shawnigan lake school? on Victoria Island.

          My family was hardly rich, but my parents spent every dime on trying to find a school where this brilliant off the charts student could stay challenged and thrive.

          These days, as I spent many hours and days in MP, a few blocks from Sergei Brinn and Mark Zuckerburg and the headquarters of FB, and not far from where Steve Jobs lived and died….  when I walk the streets to the farmers markets or go to my fave on California in Palo Alto, the vast majority of beautiful white folks are speaking slavic languages….

          A very high percentage of the techies at many of these companies are PhDs from Russia and other slavic countries….  even Trump is a Serb…..

          I feel way more at home there, than in Davis, but who can afford to pay those prices for prop tax, and HOA monthly…not me….

          even without a mortgage…

          and many are now moving out of Palo Alto …who were renters – and moving to SF…where, guess what…there are many more options which are cheaper. in SF>…

          PS>> and that is another reason why I understand the need for GATE…and options for the highly brilliant…or even those in the upper % …anyone who needs a challenge and doesn’t get it…will end up with other issues…

           

        2. South of Davis

          I was talking about the private “Menlo” HS (where Larry Ellison’s kids went) not the public “Menlo-Atherton” HS (that has more poor kids than Woodside HS).

  16. Barack Palin

    We’re hearing about all this hate, I still haven’t seen much if anything coming from the Trump supporters.  If you ask me it almost totally is coming from politically left leaning activists.

  17. Tia Will

    BP

    If you ask me it almost totally is coming from politically left leaning activists.”

     

    But then again, if we ask you, my story was also fabricated. So we can take asking you for what it is worth in this instance.

     

    1. Barack Palin

      Tia, I’m providing actual video of the hate coming from the left, not hearsay and anecdotal stories.  Are you also going to deny the hate and destruction coming out of the protests and riots that the left has been sponsoring in many of our major cities the last few days?

      1. David Greenwald

        A video can be an anecdote – it’s not comprehensive data – “a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person” rather than “an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.”

        1. Ron

          David:  “A video can be an anecdote – it’s not comprehensive data – “a short and amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person” rather than “an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.”

          I realize that you were responding to (and making a point about) BP’s statement regarding anecdotes and hearsay.  But, I wonder if you’d make the same statement regarding some of the recent police videos, and some events that were recorded at Trump rallies.  From what I recall, some do attempt to defend such actions, by making statements similar to yours. (And yet, some of those videos seem pretty clear, and rather “difficult” to justify.)

          1. David Greenwald

            Allow me to use the slew of police shooting videos and incidents as a good example. We look at each incident and analyze them in isolation – what happened? Was the police action justified, etc? But in terms of the system, we discovered that there are critical issues that those “anecdotes” if you will, do not answer. For example, in Ferguson, the a thorough investigation into one incident revealed a pattern of racially-biased fines. In Chicago, the investigation found all sorts of sweeping misconduct by the police. And we have attempted to analyze the data systemically – whether it is the Washington Post’s creation of a database or more systematic studies that analyze data across locales. When I went to graduate school, we learned about levels of analysis and the difference between a case study (a single case analyzed) and the systematic analysis of data. Hope that helps.

        2. Ron

          David:  “When I went to graduate school, we learned about levels of analysis and the difference between a case study (a single case analyzed) and the systematic analysis of data. Hope that helps.”

          Point noted.  However, I suspect that there is very little “systematic analysis of data”, regarding some forms of harassment and violence.  (And, not much political willingness among some to do so.  Perhaps there isn’t much point or value in it, regardless.)

          Of course, with police – it’s another matter.  Society entrusts them with vast powers that citizens don’t have.

          1. David Greenwald

            That was actually the point. we are being shown little snippets without having a sense for the systematic analysis of what is going on.

        3. Ron

          David:  “For example, in Ferguson, the a thorough investigation into one incident revealed a pattern of racially-based fines.”

          I don’t know the specifics of this.  However, I have a question for you.

          Would records/statistics regarding arrests and prosecutions of a particular population “prove” that police and the justice system are engaging in racism and misconduct, or would it “prove” that a particular population commits more crime?  And, how would anyone know the answer to that?

          (I am not referring to obvious misconduct cases.)

          1. David Greenwald

            That’s the tricky part of all of this. Stats can only show so much, you need documentations and specifics to demonstrate the rest.

      2. tribeUSA

        BP–are you a sometimes insomniac like myself?

        I think the evidence is pretty clear that inter-racial and inter-ethnic tension at the national level has substantially racheted up in the past few years–I lay the responsibility squarely in the laps of the media and mainstream establishment politicos, who have worked in concert to attempt to put wedges in place between racial and ethnic groups, and who still want to drive these wedges in. Fortunately, there has been enough social integration that most members of most races can see thru this programmed b.s., and thus the wedges have not been driven in very far. I fully expect to see inter-racial and inter-ethnic tensions ease again under the Trump presidency; despite likely ongoing efforts by the mainstream media and estalishment politicos to whup up more inter-racial hatred.

        1. Jerry Waszczuk

          tribeUSA

          Well said. It is translate  to provide   employment with a  decent pay  to  millions of unemployed, welfare and food stamps recipients and fill the  stores with products Made in America than racial tension and hopelessness will disappear on it is own.  Hopelessness and  despair to live better  can’t to be cured by meaningless communist propaganda in democratic society .

  18. tribeUSA

    From what I can gather, it seems to me that among the major concerns about Trump is among the hispanic community; who from comments Trump did make earlier in the campaign are now concerned that themselves or relatives or friends might get deported (It should be noted that Trump’s platform does not include deportation of all illegals). Perhaps it would be a good idea for Trump before Thanksgiving, to clarify his position on the border and illegal aliens. I strongly suspect it will alleviate the uncertainty and fears of the latino community, with regard to their own selves or family members or friends who may be here illegally, that they will not be sought out or otherwise rounded up for deportation (unless they are some kind of hardened or serious criminals, such as violent felons or members of violent gangs or cartels). Given the riots and unrest around the country, a public statement by Trump is warranted (and Obama is neglecting his duties by not doing more to publicly speak out against the violent riots accompanying many protests).

    1. Jerry Waszczuk

      tribeUSA

      What  clarification from Trump you are looking for in regards to deportation of illegals .? Myself I think that Trump will try to build the wall first at southern border and he  will  deport all known criminals with undocumented status. Trump  election’s pledges to deport millions were most likely unwelcoming   messages to these across the the border who are ready to cross the border illegally . However I am not certain about his pledges .

  19. South of Davis

    I wonder if anyone on the left screaming “Trump is a racist homophobe who hates women” noticed that the first people he named to the Trump transition team were Ben Carson (a black guy), Peter Thiel (a gay guy), and Kellyanne Fitzpatrick (a woman)…

    1. David Greenwald

      I think people are more concerned with the policies I laid out today in my commentary than the strategic placement of certain individuals on his transition team.

      1. Jerry Waszczuk

        David

        They are not just certain individuals.They are Ben Carson (Black guy ) Peter Thiel (gay ) and Kellyanne  Fitzpatrick (a woman ) .  Diversity is a music to your ears.Right ?

        1. David Greenwald

          Depends, is Ben Carson’s presence going to stop him from undermining the progress of police reform? Is Peter Thiel’s going to counter the presence of Pence and others who have pushed through anti-gay legislation? Is Kellyanne going to stop him from groping women against their consent?

        2. Alan Miller

          Depends, is Ben Carson’s presence going to stop him from undermining the progress of police reform? Is Peter Thiel’s going to counter the presence of Pence and others who have pushed through anti-gay legislation? Is Kellyanne going to stop him from groping women against their consent?

          So “diversity” only matters if the diverse are on your team?  They might as well all be ping pong balls since they are conservative.  Jeez!

      2. Jerry Waszczuk

        David

        You remains me communist chiefs from communist Poland who lived themselves of little money  which were provided to them by communist system but they were worry not to offend the  Soviet Union where everybody knew where the Soviet Union is located but nobody wanted to go there and live there In  contrary the  United States is dream country of billions regardless of their social status ,religion and national origin.  You are not providing any help to Mexicans , Blacks , Muslims and LGBT community with your writing and you have noting to offer to them beside the meaningless propaganda of fear and worries . Nothing personal.

        1. Tia Will

          Jerry

          In  contrary the  United States is dream country of billions regardless of their social status ,religion and national origin. “

          Honest question. Then how do you reconcile this dream country with the nightmare and disaster that the president elect has claimed it is in order to get himself elected ?

        2. David Greenwald

          Not offended but I disagree rather strongly. The point of my article here was to look at three groups, understand what the policy questions are and how vulnerable they are to impact.

        3. Jerry Waszczuk

          Tia

          Because  welfare and foods stamps in this country is a lot more than monthly income for hard work in other countries  and millions are coming here illegally and they being treated better than U.S citizens .  My buddy is illegal guy from South America living  and with family in nice apartment which would be impossible to get for me if I would have  no job or bad credit .  He had and accident working on the construction  and have state is paying him workers comp benefits .  This why this country is so attractive. In other country you have to work for welfare , Here is free on Mia’s  and Jerry’s expenses .  Mia,  you  perfectly know what is going and you know better than me but you are playing playing Mother Teresa and Angela Davis  combined together.

          It does not work this way . Mother Teresa is good . Angela Davis is red evil .

    2. Tia Will

      South of Davis

      The nomination of those who have publicly and consistently supported oneself ( aka sycophants) is hardly a statement one way or the other about how one feels about those groups as whole. Let’s also consider how he treated on other individual, Judge Curiel, who you will remember he clearly stated could not be fair because of his Mexican heritage.

      As David correctly pointed out. Anecdotes on either side are not proof of either overall point of view, not intent. I agree with hpierce that we will not know how this will play out or even get a measure of the possibilities until at least mid January and as with all national leaders will be a work in progress.

      1. Barack Palin

        As a commenter already pointed out on here, the Hispanic judge already had other issues which led Trump to believe he couldn’t get a fair ruling from him.

        1. David Greenwald

          Which would be fine, except for what Trump said. He said Judge Curiel had “an absolute conflict” in presiding over the litigation given that he is “of Mexican heritage”.

          1. Don Shor

            Trump should dismiss this Judge

            You may want to review your civics. Presidents can’t dismiss judges.

      2. David Greenwald

        Some have suggested giving Trump a chance, but part of this is pushing back against potential policies that would move us in the wrong direction in the hopes that he reconsiders them.

  20. Tia Will

    Don and Ron

     

    1. Although the question of greater concern about Mike Pence was not directed to me, I want to weigh in.

      “I am a Christian, a Conservative, and a Republican in that order.”

      What is of grave concern to me is that Mr. Pence’s self description does not include the word ” American “.  I think that he is giving an honest and accurate self appraisal. He is a religiously based ideologue. And that I find particularly alarming.

    1. Jerry Waszczuk

      Tia

      Don’t twist this .  Vice President no need to say that he an American .  He would not  be elected if he would Mexican citizen. Pence outlined what he represents as an American to let everybody know who is he without speculation whether  he is Muslim or Christian as it happened with  Barak Hussein Obama whose mother was white but hated white people and stated that she never will marry white guy.

      1. David Greenwald

        Actually he does. Is he an American first or a Christian or a Conservative? where does his first loyalty lie? In his case – it lies to what he believes religion dictates rather loyalty to country. Interesting. BTW, I’m likely to answer similarly – loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it.

        1. Frankly

          Is he an American first or a Christian or a Conservative?

          Your question reminds me…

          Trump and the Fall of Liberalism

          372NOV 11, 2016 4:31 PM EST

          By

          Stephen L. Carter

          Let’s be frank. After this week’s electoral explosion, liberalism faces years in the wilderness. It’s not just that the president-elect is Donald Trump. It’s that a Democratic Party that as recently as Monday imagined it had forged an electoral coalition sufficiently solid to stand for decades now lies in shambles. In 2018, the party must defend an astonishing 25 seats in their Senate caucus, many of them in states that Trump carried. “It’s going to be a disaster,” said one Democratic strategist — and that was back when people thought Hillary Clinton was a shoo-in. Republicans control a record 69 of 99 state legislative chambers, and wound up with at least 33 governorships, the most since 1922. In short, the Democrats’ exile is likely to be lengthy.

          …because your question indicates that you somehow know better what being “American first” is… and this in a nutshell is what was just rejected in this election… the liberal view of what “American first” is.

          When challenged on this you say that Republicans and conservatives just want America to be white and Christian.   And it making this statement you just dig the Democrat political hole even deeper.

          Because, as the range of candidates put forward by the GOP prove, being American has nothing to do with race or ethnic origin… it has everything to do with supporting and protecting true American values.

          From my perspective it was liberals putting every politically-advantageous group first above what would be better for America in general.  But the lesson apparently is not being learned.  It is not being accepted.  Liberals will be liberals.  They will continue to flail about and call everyone else bigoted and stupid.  And hence liberals will continue to lose until and unless they are even more successful at rigging the campuses, the poor neighborhoods, the wealthy white neighborhoods, and the media to do their bidding.

          1. Don Shor

            …because your question indicates that you somehow know better what being “American first” is… and this in a nutshell is what was just rejected in this election… the liberal view of what “American first” is.

            Who got the most votes, Frankly?

        2. Barack Palin

          Don sounds like a football fan.  Even though his team lost the game all he can talk about is how they gained more yards than the other team.  Guess what Don, you still lost.

          1. Don Shor

            Hillary Clinton won the popular vote. There is no mandate. Assertions about support or rejection of any particular philosophy — liberalism, conservatism, you name it — are false. This country is very evenly divided. But Trump didn’t win the most votes. You know it. Frankly knows it. So assertions like “this in a nutshell is what was just rejected in this election” are false.

            all he can talk about is how they gained more yards than the other team.

            Sorry, but I have no idea what that means.

            For any who want to follow the tally:
            https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/htmlview?sle=true#gid=19
            Clinton is up 3/4 million and counting.

          2. Don Shor

            Here’s a football analogy that might be more apt. If touchdowns scored by players from certain schools counted for more than touchdowns by players from other schools, you’d have the equivalent of our electoral college.

        3. Frankly

          Here’s a football analogy that might be more apt. If touchdowns scored by players from certain schools counted for more than touchdowns by players from other schools, you’d have the equivalent of our electoral college.

          This is such a bonehead analogy.

          The US is a republic.  The Electoral College is critical in a design that prevents a tyranny of a weak majority.  And Democrats had the very, very, very weak majority in this election.

          You would have screamed like a loon if the reverse was true.  That your Democrat candidate won the election from the Electoral College vote even while losing the popular vote.  You are just a being a poor loser.  And instead of looking inward to the cause of the massive and explosive loss your Party suffered, you keep making excuses.

          50% of the nation does not share California and New York liberal values.

          The Presidency, the Senate, the House, the governorship and the state legislatures are ALL now majority Republican.

          This is an outright rejection of the current iteration of what Democrats were offering… and most of what the Democrats have been offering is to transform the country into a liberal European socialist country.

          Bring back the old Democrat Party and maybe you have a chance to take back power.  But modern liberalism in this country has been flat-out rejected.

        4. Frankly

          If you want to win the Electoral College votes then make sure your candidate and her platform appeals to the voters in enough states and not just California and New York.

          Clinton lost because she was basically doubling down on the policies of Barack Obama and only attempting to appeal to her base.  She was banking on that being enough.

          And as the rest of the election tells us, Obama’s policies and the liberal agenda where not liked at all by the people of most states.

        5. Frankly

          And the Democrat Party machine railroaded Bernie Sanders.

          There is another “look in the mirror” opportunity that will be ignored and rejected and instead tantrums will be thrown.

        6. Ron

          Frankly:  “The Electoral College is critical in a design that prevents a tyranny of a weak majority.”

          Yeah – much better to have a tyranny of a weak minority.  Right – it makes no sense to have a system in which the one who gets the most votes, wins.  Much better to have some votes “count” more than others.  (Especially if the diluted votes happen to be more “liberal”.)

          Same problem with the Senate (e.g., two for California, two for Wyoming).  (Actually, not sure how this works out, since some small East coast states might be considered more “liberal” than some other states.)

        7. Frankly

          This is a crackup.  Liberals lose and now claim that the American election system is rigged.  They lambasted Trump for saying the media was rigging the election and that he would not immediately accept the results.  And the very same liberals that hooted and hollered about this are saying that they do not accept the results.

          Every last tiny bit of credibility for liberals to be worthy of respectful political discussion and debate has been eroded with their reaction and response to this election.  In fact, I see this election as being very helpful in that ALL the things that I and a few others have noted over the years and been yelled at and told to be respectful has proven true.

          The media is biased and liberals are not civil nor moral except when they get their way.

          Here is another perspective that might help the minority of still curious and introspective liberals understand grow up.

          http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/13/mike-rowe-perfectly-explains-america-voted-trump/

        8. Ron

          Frankly:  “And the very same liberals that hooted and hollered about this are saying that they do not accept the results.”

          Personally, I thought that the initial reaction to Trump’s statement (about possibly not accepting the result) was an over-reaction.  However, I also recall that some (perhaps a lot?) of the reaction was coming from Republicans.  (Not sure if I’m a complete liberal, regardless. I’d suggest that I am not.)

          Regarding the electoral college, I don’t see any justification for it.  This is apparently the second time in 16 years that the candidate who won the popular vote (nationwide) lost the election, as a result of the electoral college system.

          Having one’s vote count for “less” than someone else’s vote is the kind of thing that leads to revolutions (at a more extreme level).  I understand that there is some movement (e.g., petitions) to change the system.  (Not sure how far that will get.)

           

        9. Ron

          BP:  “To everyone complaining about the outcome of  the election because of the electoral college go out and change the rules.  Until then deal with it.”

          Once again, you are right.  And, it is fundamentally the reason that I’m not too supportive of the efforts/protests (with a focus primarily on Trump).  I suspect that some of the protestors don’t understand who is “waiting in the wings”, should Trump not complete his entire term (e.g., via impeachment by his own party at some point, as some seem to envision as a possibility).

        10. Frankly

          Having one’s vote count for “less” than someone else’s vote is the kind of thing that leads to revolutions (at a more extreme level).  I understand that there is some movement (e.g., petitions) to change the system.  (Not sure how far that will get.)

          Having California’s liberal orthodoxy shoved down the throats of the people in other states that don’t share California values is the kind of thing that leads to revolutions.

          You sir should read more American history… especially 1776 and text that explains the thinking behind the design of the republic.

          Ignorance is a very dangerous thing in the hands of the electorate.

          1. David Greenwald

            People are dealing with what happened right now. Everyone is dealing with it in different ways.

      2. Tia Will

        Barack Obama is a Christian American. It was a lie that he was not that was perpetuated by the current president elect who has now admitted it only when it was convenient for him. And Marina states that he is not a liar. Who is really “twisting” things here. And what difference does it make what personal preference of skin color for a husband or wife that one prefers make ?

    2. Ron

      Tia:  “He (Pence) is a religiously based ideologue. And that I find particularly alarming.”

      With all due respect to Jerry and others, I definitely share your concern.

      1. Jerry Waszczuk

        Good that Pence is not religiously based  Muslim ideologue .  I  am wondering what everybody would say on this forum if Pence would be religiously based  Muslim ideologue .

        Look  many on DV  praying to have  Sharia law and Hamas .  We need some Jewish people on this forum.

        1. Ron

          J.M.  “Good that Pence is not religiously based  Muslim ideologue .  I am wondering what everybody would say on this forum if Pence would be religiously based Muslim ideologue.”

          I suspect that we wouldn’t even know who he is, since he likely would not have been elected as a congressman, governor, or vice-president.

          In general, I have concerns regarding anyone who tries to inject any religious-based beliefs into our political system and related decisions.

        2. Tia Will

           I  am wondering what everybody would say on this forum if Pence would be religiously based  Muslim ideologue .”

          Well wonder no more. I would feel exactly the same if he were a Muslim, or Jewish or Hindu ideologue. Any leader who believes that they have the right to impose their religious beliefs on others is dangerous. Remember “We will all be saying Merry Christmas if I am elected

        3. hpierce

          Being against anyone who espouses religious values, without trying to impose them on others?

          Isn’t that another form of “hate”?

          There were many presidents who espoused religious values, yet respected the constitution as to the “separation” principle…

          Several candidates were called “papist” if they were Catholic [and defeated on that basis]… JFK was the first Catholic president.  See how many times Lincoln quoted Jewish/Christian texts in his most famous speeches.  Some here seem to think that only agnostics/atheists etc. should serve in public office.

          Why?  If not a ‘flavor’ of “hate”?

          The “religion thing” was used against the Romney’s [Mormon, as I recall], JFK, Sanders, Kaine (VP) and Pence (VP)…

          Whatever…

  21. Tia Will

    This is  not important anymore”
    What remains important is that the president elect was willing to lie about it for years and that simply does not seem to matter to a number of posters here.

  22. Frankly

    Wow… the grapes are sure sour on the left.  They lectured Republicans and conservatives about this when Obama won, and now we get to see a much larger meltdown that anything seen in recent history.

    I am thinking that because the left is largely secular they are lamenting the loss of their “religion”.  That can only explain the depth of their despair over politics.

     

    1. Tia Will

      Frankly

      I am paraphrasing, but of course they are all available to be seen on tape by Googling the key words.

      1.  I saw thousands of  Muslims cheering as the Twin Towers came down.

      2. I never said I was in favor of the Iraq war

      3. I don’t know who David Duke is

      4. I don’t even know who he ( in reference to the reporter with disabilities ) is in view of the fact that he had met with him on a number of occasions and claims a superior memory.

      As the few that leap to my just awakens pre caffeinated brain.

    2. Tia Will

      Frankly

      I am thinking that because the left is largely secular they are lamenting the loss of their “religion”.  That can only explain the depth of their despair over politics.”

      Patently absurd. I have not shared the professed religious convictions of any individual who has occupied the White House in my entire life time. So now you are suggesting that after having Christians in the White House for my entire life I am now appalled that someone who claims to be a Christian has been elected ?…

      No Frankly. There are many other reasons for my despair. But let’s just start with the fact that we now have an individual who has disparaged those of other ethnicities, gender, ideologies and faiths and has built his campaign around forcing his “religious beliefs ” onto those of us who do not share his supposed Christian faith in the form of medical decisions ( about which of course you do not care since it will never affect you).

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