Flag Burning is Free Speech

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flag-burningBy Lee Rowland

President-elect Donald J. Trump tweeted that anyone who burns a flag should be jailed or even stripped of their U.S. citizenship. The idea that the government could use citizenship as a punishment for political speech is not simply unconstitutional, but fundamentally un-American.

This tweet offers not one but two ideas that are staggeringly wrong from a constitutional point of view: that peaceful protest can be punished by the government and that stripping someone of their American citizenship is an appropriate response to dissent. The U.S. Constitution, however, prevents both of those ideas from becoming reality. Indeed, it’s hard to imagine anyone committing two worse constitutional errors in 140 characters or less. But perhaps I shouldn’t hold my breath.

No, President-elect Trump, you can’t get locked up or lose your American citizenship for political speech.

First, one of the founding principles of American democracy is our tolerance of peaceful protest. Flag burning, like other forms of dissent, is political speech that is fully protected by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. That means this speech can’t be censored by the government, and it can’t be made a crime.

And you don’t have to take it just from me. Someone Mr. Trump claims to respect highly, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, explained that if he were “king,” he’d happily imprison those who burned the U.S. flag. But he quickly added that because we live in a constitutional democracy, such punishments were off the table: “I mean, that was the main kind of speech that tyrants would seek to suppress.” That quote now seems quite prescient just a few short years later.

But failing to recognize the First Amendment’s protection for political speech was only one of the two constitutional impossibilities contained in Trump’s tweet. As our Supreme Court affirmed nearly 50 years ago, it is unconstitutional to strip any American of her citizenship without consent — including for even the most heinous crimes. (Indeed, while Charles Manson and the Unabomber may rightly be rotting in jail, I haven’t heard a single suggestion that either complete their sentences stripped of their citizenship.) As the Supreme Court correctly noted, “Citizenship is no light trifle.” It is no mere pawn to use as punishment, let alone a tool to control the political beliefs of the citizenry. Scalia was correct — that way lies only tyranny.

first-amendment-graphic

Fortunately, our First Amendment rights have deep and strong roots in the federal courts, and it’s going to take a lot more than uneducated tweets to uproot these core liberties. The alternate reality that Trump tweeted about just can’t happen as long as our Constitution gets in the way.

No matter how much you bellyfeel that duckspeak.

Lee Rowland is a Senior Staff Attorney with the ACLU Speech, Privacy, and Technology Project.

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86 thoughts on “Flag Burning is Free Speech”

  1. Barack Palin

    What many may not know is that a decade ago, Hillary Clinton called for a similar punishment. Then a United States Senator for New York, Clinton co-sponsored the Flag Protection Act of 2005. Senator Robert Bennett, a Republican from Utah, introduced the bill to the Senate in October 2005.
    “The flag of the United States is a unique symbol of national unity and represents the values of liberty, justice and equality,”the bill said. “Abuse of the flag,” it continued, “causes more than pain and distress to the overwhelming majority of the American people and may amount to fighting words or a direct threat to the physical and emotional well-being of individuals.” If intended to incite violence, the bill stated, destroying a flag went beyond political speech and therefore was not protected under the First Amendment, as the Supreme Court had ruled it was in 1989 and 1990.
    For “any person” who burns a flag or causes one to be burned in order to incite violence, the bill called for a maximum fine of $100,000 or one year imprisonment, or both. If the desecrated flag belonged to the U.S. government, the maximum penalties would rise to $250,000 and two years behind bars.

    http://www.newsweek.com/clinton-trump-flag-burning-punishment-526581

  2. Marina Kalugin

    in the 60s many were arrested and some even lost their lives for flag burning..

    what some may not know, is one of the approved ways to dispose of a torn or otherwise damaged flag (per military guidelines)  is to burn it..

    at least it was when I last looked it up….  google retiring worn out american flags..

    any good cub scout knows this

    PS> damage has many meanings and the country is way broken and so is any flag for which it stands…

     

     

      1. Marina Kalugin

        do your own search missy….and remember, those who got arrested may have died due to “resisting arrest” or in a crash on the  way to the jail…or at the jail by refusing someone’s affections… or later in prison if they had a large amount of meth on them when being arrested for the flag burning …..and yes, it is all due to having been burning the flag

        many are killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time…..someone on probation may be walking to work through a poor area of Oak Park or Oakland…  the cops show up…  a fight ensues……and the person can be killed just walking…or if everyone scatters, they can run also and be shot…..or arrested for running when the cops say “halt”….. and so much more..

        I was a pre-teen and teen in the 60s…..why just send something like this?   were you around for Kent State?   did you ever march at SF State or UCB?   in Oakland or Oak Park?

         

         

    1. hpierce

      Marina… it is actually the Flag Code (not a military document), that indicates that the preferred method of disposing of a tattered, worn out flag is by burning it.  It is considered respectful, in that context.

  3. Tia Will

    BP

    So, I cannot help but wonder your purpose in posting this quote from HRC. If it was wrong when she said it ( as I believe ), then must it not also be wrong when our president elect says it ? Since our president elect will now be in power while HRC will not, which do you believe is the more important to call out on the error of their ways ?

    1. Barack Palin

      Just to show this type of rhetoric has come from both sides of the aisle.

      I abhor people who burn our flag but our first ammendment protects their right to do so.

      Tia, how do you feel about flag burners?

      1. Marina Kalugin

        heck…if there was any reason to honor the crap hole known as the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA>..   I perhaps would abhor it also….fortunately I am not longer concerned about honoring the worst country on this planet… my opinion of course as everything on DV is opinion and some of is disguised as fact….and who cares?  na da

        1. SODA

          Marina. I am glad you are happy where you are but in my opinion I don’t care to hear how much you hate where we are. From your previous posts it seemed you enjoyed your work at UCD and living in Davis. Whatever has changed I don’t think has a place on DV. Please refrain. And I wish you happiness. Dianne

      2. Tia Will

        BP

        Tia, how do you feel about flag burners?”

        It is not an action that I would choose, and I respect their right to do so. I consider this as a non violent means of protest through the destruction of a symbol in which they do not believe. But then, bear in mind that I also will defend the rights of the Westboro Baptist Church to spout what I consider to be their odious beliefs.

  4. Don Shor

    This is a complete non-issue, and I’m disturbed that media outlets have picked this simple-minded tweet up and treated it as serious discourse. There are lots of questions and issues that Trump needs to address. The constitutionality of flag-burning isn’t one of them. He owes the American people a press conference and answers on lots of issues that have rightly disturbed and scared many American citizens and residents.  I suggest that in the future, early morning tweets designed to appeal to his base voters on wedge issues just be ignored. The same day, he appointed his pick for HHS, clearly indicating how he is likely to proceed on the issue of Obamacare — an action and directly affects tens of millions of us. That’s news. This is not.

      1. South of Davis

        BP wrote:

        > LMAO, where have you been Jerry? 

        It is interesting to note that Don recently deleted an (accurate and descriptive) adjective that I used to describe the president elect’s hair color (that some may find not flattering).  As far as I know this was a Vanguard first for anything even remotely negative about some right of center person getting deleted.  Maybe Don is looking at the world differently and next time we go in to buy plants we will see him sitting at his computer in the corner wearing a red “Make America Great Again” hat…

        1. hpierce

          And BP (your 8:56 post), the link between the topic and “Obamacare” (a misnomer, to be sure… unless you’d rather see the term ‘Roosevelt Security’ instead of ‘Social Security’, and ‘Johnson Care’, instead of Medicare) and flag burning and/or First Amendment is … ???????????????

        2. Barack Palin

          I wasn’t trying to link the two subjects, was just injecting a little humor which should’ve been obvious.

          But thanks anyway, I always feel much better that we have our very own Vanguard fact checker going thoroughly through every comment looking for errors.

    1. Topcat

      ….I suggest that in the future, early morning tweets designed to appeal to his base voters on wedge issues just be ignored.

      And I would suggest that the Vanguard not post articles like this that are not directly related to local issues here in Davis.

      1. Tia Will

        TopCat

        And I would suggest that the Vanguard not post articles like this that are not directly related to local issues here in Davis.”

        I believe that this is a topic highly relevant to us here in Davis. Davis is not immune to the need to consider the limits of what constitutes free speech vs hate speech. Two current examples right here in Davis.

        Our own mosque was the recipient of one of the hate letters claiming that as the “new Sheriff in town “, our president-elect , will do to them what Hitler did to the Jews. It was the opinion of Rich Rifkin that this was not perpetrated by a resident of Davis, but since this is just one of these letters which showed up in a number of mosques around the country, it seems irrelevant to me where the perpetrator lives for purposes of discussion. The fact is that it is our friends, neighbors, and coworkers who were targeted which makes speech designed to frighten, intimidate, or harm a local topic.

        Example two. A UCD Republican student group has invited Milo Yiannopoulous to speak on campus. If you do not know who this is, a quick trip to Google will provide many examples of his religious intolerance, racism and sexism. I heard the news while at a gathering of about 7 associates and we were of mixed opinion. I was strongly of the opinion that he should be allowed to speak, and we are free to publicly express our complete and utter rejection of his hateful ideas. However there was a range of opinions including one individual who felt that he should not be allowed to speak on campus at all given his recent egregious behavior on social media.

        We have frequently heard from posters here on the Vanguard that discrimination is a think  of the past or “de minims” in our country today. I strongly disagree. I think that discrimination against various groups continues to be a hallmark of our society and that in the after math of this election, we now have an opportunity and even an obligation to point this out on the local level ( where it certainly is occurring) on the regional and state as well as on the national level.

    2. hpierce

      I’ll somewhat disagree, Don.  It is valuable to understand that many folk equate burning the flag (prescribed by the Flag Code as the preferred method of disposing of a flag, done respectfully), with flagrant ‘abuse’ of the flag, in a time, place, and manner intended to “act out” likely to ‘inflame’ emotions.

      Pretty sure there will come a time when I burn a flag… but it will be done respectfully, privately, not behaving like an idiot/spoiled brat, trying to piss folk off…

      Folk DO need to learn about “time, place, and manner” in many aspects of life… particularly here in Davis.  [Silly example to make a point] Perfectly OK to have sex with whoever you want, however you want, but it needs to be consensual, and not on the greenbelt adjacent to an elementary school during recess.  Most folk don’t seem to understand the TPM thing.  An important social construct.

      1. Alan Miller

        Perfectly OK to have sex with whoever you want, however you want, but it needs to be consensual, and not on the greenbelt adjacent to an elementary school during recess.

        I do wait until recess is over.

        1. hpierce

          Thank you for that, Alan… goes to “time”… had other examples in mind, too, but CC meetings, televised, in front of the dais, during a fluoridation or sugary drink tax argument seemed a bit “over the top” (or, under the bottom?), even for me…

  5. Marina Kalugin

    ahhh…hola SODA

    wait for the class action LAW suit against UCD and the decent one left was taken down..

    Heck it ain’t MY issue either though I am participating….so many docs, so much evidence..

    So many people lost their jobs, some committed suicide…do ya think I kid, na da.

    As I say I have way better and much more important fish to fry.

    If any of you have any illness i your family follow the money and learn the f truth.

    I am in a way better country but the more I have spoken out against injustice since I first arrived in his country, the more my life is in danger.

    And, until I have my permanent residency here, soon, I am keeping my mouth zipped on the worst of the worst..

    cya

    1. hpierce

      May you enjoy your new life, as the fictional character Phillip Nolan did… may you never hear of, nor inquire about the USA.  Ever.

      Feel free to exercise your first amendment right to burn whatever citizenship documents you have. I’ll provide the marshmallows.

    2. hpierce

      Yeah Marina, Mom was murdered by Russian-born doctors innoculating her with pneumonia when she was in the hospital for a broken hip… less than 7 days after the twin towers thing… I followed the money…

      [For others, Mom did die of pneumonia, contracted in the hospital, admitted due to a hip issue… less than 48 hours from discharge… they ‘treated’ it in the hospital, so she was stable enough to “discharge”… she was a Medicare/supplement to Medicare patient.  What money should be “followed”?]

      Sidebar… if you are over 50, and have health insurance, suggest you consider getting a ‘pneumonia-coccal’ (sp?) vaccine…

  6. Eric Gelber

    I agree that flag burning and Trump’s views on the subject are far from the top of the list of significant national or local issues worthy of discussion. But I wouldn’t say that “[t]his is a complete non-issue.” It is an issue because it’s reflective of a general hostility toward and apparent ignorance of the First Amendment guarantee of free speech and freedom of the press. Trump has shown disdain for the media and has gone so far as to call for opening up of libel laws to make it easier to sue newspapers. He has mocked reporters and encouraged violence against protesters at public events. He questions the integrity of those in the media expressing views he disagrees with. Trump’s speech, of course, is also protected by the First Amendment–but he is about to be President and his views on the First Amendment must not be taken lightly. He has repeatedly shown that he is thin-skinned and vindictive. Limiting press access will impact the public’s right to information. At this point, at a minimum, Trump’s expressed views on the First Amendment are reason for concern.

    1. Barack Palin

      Trump has shown disdain for the media

      Do you really blame Trump, the media has shown nothing but disdain for him.

      This has probably been the most one-sided election ever where the msm got soely behind one candidate.

      Luckily the country is finally seeing through this and looking past the biased press.

        1. Barack Palin

          He’s not even the President yet and he’s already saved 1000 Carrier jobs from going to Mexico.

          I hope he picks a young very conservative judge for Scalia’s vacancy so we have that in place for a looooong time.

      1. ryankelly

        Trump bought 1,000 jobs with generous corporate tax breaks for Carrier, but he failed to keep another 1,700 jobs from moving to Mexico.  The headline is that he saved 1,000 jobs, but this isolated fact can’t stand up when looked at more broadly.  This gives all other large manufacturing companies a blue print for how to manipulate Trump into giving them tax breaks – declare that they are closing an American plant and moving to Mexico, negotiate a generous tax break (aka ransom), then continue on.  Trump gets his fancy headline and the company lowers its costs.  Employees are just pawns in this game.

        1. Sam

          Yes, he saved 1,000 jobs by allowing the company to pay less in taxes. Since the jobs are here the company is still paying taxes though. If the jobs had left they would not be paying any taxes. By contrast the Obama administration saved about 77,000 jobs at GM by actually spending $10,500,000,000 or $136,000 per job. Between the two methods I would prefer Trumps since the only thing given up was a few million dollars of taxes that would have been collected only if the jobs had stayed.

        2. ryankelly

          Sam, You have it wrong.  The bailout of the Auto industry was a loan, which was paid back, I believe, and served to put the brakes on an economic disaster.  Trump’s agreement to buy jobs is just chump change (we should start calling it trump change.) It is a gift of public dollars in exchange for a brief positive headline in a sea of bad news.   He disregards and doesn’t say how he will help the 1,700 people that are now out of work and will need the social services that he is threatening to cut.

        3. Barack Palin

          Ryan, you have it wrong.  Overall the American taxpayer lost $11 billion on the GM bailout.  The gov’t invested $50 billion and only recouped $39 billion.

        4. South of Davis

          Ryan wrote:

          > Trump bought 1,000 jobs with generous corporate tax

          > breaks for Carrier, but he failed to keep another 1,700

          > jobs from moving to Mexico.

          It is sad that this is all we get from most debates between the right and left:

          Obama let a thirsty senior finish his half full glass of water on CNBC and Obama only gave a thirsty senior a half empty glass of water on Fox.

          We need to see if Trump made a good “investment” when he “bought” the 1,000 jobs.  If he “paid” $10K per job that pays an average in $5K of federal income tax per year he made a good investment, where if he paid $200K per job he would have been better off just selling more 10 year treasury bonds…

        5. Sam

          “The bailout of the Auto industry was a loan, which was paid back”
          No, it was not just a loan and not all of the money the government spent was paid back. The taxpayers lost $10,500,000 in total.
          “served to put the brakes on an economic disaster”
          Yes, it saved about 77,000 jobs. The State of Michigan gave GM about $1,700,000,000 in tax incentives to save about 31,000 jobs spending about $55,000 per job. The Carrier deal is said to have given the company a fraction of the $65MM they planned to save by moving the jobs south. So it might cost Indiana $6,000 to $10,000 per job.
           
          Like I said before, the Carrier deal is better in every way than the GM deal.

      2. Tia Will

        BP

        Do you really blame Trump, the media has shown nothing but disdain for him.”

        I absolute do blame the president elect for his own words and actions, just as I do everyone else.

        It is precisely this demonstrated vindictiveness and need to engage in childish “tit for tat” temper tantrums rather than tolerance, understanding and forbearance that make many of us believe that our president elect is not emotionally or temperamentally suited for the leadership of our nation.

         

    2. hpierce

      C’mon… Trump’s twitters alone show he supports the First Amendment, at least for himself…

      And he came close to slander (if he didn’t actually cross that line) many times in the last year… in the primaries, and in the general election… not sure if a twitter thing is slander or libel…

      1. hpierce

        Oh… what IS the difference between First Amendment rights, and libel/slander?   Curious…

        Could be libel/slander charges should be routinely dismissed on Constitutional grounds…

        Perhaps an attorney could weigh in…

      2. Jerry Waszczuk

        hpierce

        Twitter is no slander or libel. I have First Amendment case in  the court  than I have a general knowledge what you people can  say or tweet .   The DV previously posted many articles about the First Amendment

  7. Frankly

    I disagree with Trump that flag burning should be a crime… except if the flag-burners break laws related to public safety.

    However, I think we need to cut off public benefits to people that have time for these stunts, and also support employers rejecting hiring and also being able to fire people that desecrate the flag.  Since these people seem to think they live in such a terrible country, we should allow them to gain the perspective for what a terrible country really feels like.

    1. Eric Gelber

      I think we need to cut off public benefits to people that have time for these stunts

      “Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.” ~ Harry Truman
       

      1. Frankly

        “Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.”

        Oh, you mean on the college campuses… certainly I agree.  Just don’t ever enter one of those safe places and utter some word that is disallowed… no telling what might happen to you… and no, no charges will be filed against those that do you harm… because we know that words are worse than violence.

  8. Sam

    This is hilarious to watch. Everyone keeps talking about the new shinny object that Trump throws out as a distraction and fails to pay attention to what he is actually doing.
    Everybody, even Trump knows that the first amendment protects people that burn the flag. While news outlets have been wasting their time and energy discussing this Trump has been meeting with one of the most talented people in the country at gutting and reorganizing how companies operate with the goal of giving him a top cabinet position. This might be something that people should be discussing.
     
    I thought after the election people would take a step back and realize this but I guess not.

    1. Frankly

      Bingo Sam.  This is where “stu-pid” Trump (as per the elites’ assessment) has played them all… knowing what gets them all wee-weed up.  Just throw a few words and thoughts out there to get their hypersensitive senses aflame, while doing the real work that would otherwise get attention from the politicos and liberal media.

      This is what he did to the Clinton campaign.  He set their hair on fire and caused them to go at him personally and they ignored the need to actually have a platform of ideas.

      I have been critical of politicians that are just actors, but I think Trump has and is out-acting everyone around him.

      Meanwhile…

      http://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-a-team-1480551204#lf_comment=178675921:615864773

       

        1. Frankly

          I disagree with this.

          Idea: a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action.

          Trump came to the election with a clear set of ideas indicative of a possible course of action.

          He was just lacking specificity of plans.

          But that specificity bar the left sets for him is one that they don’t set for their own candidate.

    2. Alan Miller

      This is hilarious to watch. Everyone keeps talking about the new shinny object that Trump throws out as a distraction and fails to pay attention to what he is actually doing.

      Yup.

    3. Topcat

      Everyone keeps talking about the new shinny object that Trump throws out as a distraction and fails to pay attention to what he is actually doing.

      And the Vanguard took the bait and posted the article about flag burning in response to Trump’s tweet.

  9. Marina Kalugin

    but heck, Jerry, I am loyal to China…though those communists took over the country of my birth, I am welcome there anytime as the loyal granddaughter of those who founded the largest engineering polytechnic university on that side of the globe….and jeez, though they forced us out when I was only a toddler, I can still go visit and they will put out the red carpet for ME

    But heck the omg fumes in that town closed it down for some weeks a few years ago…why would I head there unless the ice festival was in full swing….and the cars, trucks and so on were not even running.

    I  am so sorry that some do not like my sharing the inconvenient truths on this page either./

    do I care what some who are dumb enough to support BO and HRC<   I admit I was that dumb in 2008 but learned much faster than many on here.

    so sorry to be so un PC and for the ostrich people who love to congregate here and throw stones.

    I am soooooo much happier….and throwing stones many thousands of miles away is much safer haha

    than the UC since the 60s on.

    If nothing else I am still an activist and can shake things up way better than most..  if ya read some of the books that were popular in the 60s  biography of Patty Hearst and books about Malcolm X…and books like Fast Food Nation…though that was….. 70s you might understand why the Cult of Farakan  (sp) is now following the Church of Scientology and while the many who left before the IRS became pals with the dictator known as David Miscavige…and if ya saw Leah Remini on A&E the other night.

    some of ya may get a clue…but most will not …for example the DS will have it scrubbed before ya know it..

    Leah was not even born yet when my hubby and her mother were dear friends in NY City as a single working mother most of my life….my oldest is mid 30s  who had time for TV so I missed my current hubbies favorite show a comedy featuring Leah and the fat guy….ya know…

    And within a few weeks we had seen all the episodes..  my hubby was and still is the low wage working stiff and Leah is the one who made him who he is …

    And, with that…I will sign off and wait to see how long is takes for DS to take this off as off topic

    For those who are not poisoned by the likes of  roundup 24/7….they may have a few brain cells left to understand that we are all connected and so if everything on this planet known as earth which is all we got right now….it is HEAVEN for those who work hard….and is is hell for those who are now affected worse and worse by  the policies of BO and Dodd…and BAYER and Monsanto…  google revolving door of FDA and Monsanto.. watch the movie BOUGHT>…

    wake up it is never who ya think or what lies you believe…open the eyes, wake up , read, duckduckgo…learn the F truth..

    enjoy the pool and the beach by not in the US…it is toxic everywhere ya go

     

     

      1. Marina Kalugin

        nah Jerry I am a SLAV and you and I are sisters and  brothers comrade as is TRUMP

        I was a Bernie supporter but when he sold out to HRC<   that was it.

        And guess what the BO  ( and love those initials) gave the country away to the likes of Bayer/Monsanto when he refused to veto the Dark Act.

        He didn’t want to piss off the big pharma the big food and so on even though he and his family get better as they were working soOOOOOOO damn hard to elect HRC>>.

        And guess what the BO/CLINTON and other net worth went up

        Even with the crash of …how fast people forget 2008…when everything went to pot, pun maybe intended, and the BO only made it worse.

        Those who could sold high and then the longer the crash, then they bought LOW  all the same folks now have more under BO policies/

        And the GAP gets wider as the day goes on.

        Right?

         

         

         

  10. Tia Will

    Everyone keeps talking about the new shinny object that Trump throws out as a distraction and fails to pay attention to what he is actually doing.”

    Nope. I have posted a number of times, as have others about the substantive actions of the president elect especially in terms of his cabinet picks and choices of advisors. I have stated what I believe are reasonable choices that I could support such as Reince Priubus, and hopefully the dedicated, rational and honorable Mitt Romney ( whom I would strongly support although disagreeing with many of his beliefs). I have also spoken out against those that I consider to be totally unsuitable for a high level position in our government on the basis of overt racism ( as documented in their own words and actions, not by innuendo or spin) such as Bannon and Sessions. I will have more to say about the choice of Dr. Price but am having a busy week of work and meetings.

     

    1. Barack Palin

      There were also many picks that Obama made for his staff that us on the right cringed at.  If you don’t like it you should do like Obama said:

      “You don’t like a particular policy or a particular president…go out & win an election”

      1. South of Davis

         

        I heard a couple funny jokes Obama made last year on the radio yesterday:

        “Next year at this time, someone else will be standing here in this very spot, and it’s anyone’s guess who she will be,”

        and

        “Donald Trump says Obama might go down as “the worst president in the history of the United States.” “At least I will go down as a president,” ”

        http://www.today.com/video/obama-responds-to-mean-tweet-from-donald-trump-on-jimmy-kimmel-792986691631

  11. South of Davis

    I think it is funny that conservatives want a “safe space” where they don’t have to ever see a flag burn.

    We already have fire laws that prevent people from burning almost anything in public.

    I don’t know why anyone cares if someone wants to buy a box of Chinese made American flags to burn at home.

    P.S. I’m impresses that Tia can use her super ESP to tell that people are racist even when they say that they are not.  It is also interesting that if a conservative says something even once Tia will not let him change his mind (she can correct me if she feels that Obama and Hillary are anti-gay and if Robert Byrd and Bill Clinton are racists)

    1. Frankly

      I think the issue with conservatives and the flag burning is that it fits nicely into their perspective that the country is being taken over by people that really don’t like the country and want to transform it to something more like Venezuela.

      Also, when you consider the unwashed and unemployed type that typically burns a flag and those men and women that have fought and died so that all Americans, including those unwashed and unemployed flag-burning types, enjoy getting to live in what is still the greatest nation on God’s green earth… I think it does cause a bit of anger.

      Seems that there are plenty of other more civil and respectful ways to make a point.

      But I get it… free speech is only protected when you are part of a victim group and can be easily offended.  Flag-lovers are in the “non-victim” tribe.

      1. Marina Kalugin

        many a vet will tell ya they regret fighting on the side of the USA>   they saw too much, learned too much and the ole USA is treating them worse than lifers in prison…..

        Some are now making their homes on the streets of Davis….

        that is also truth…some are now known to burn flags…out of spite rather than respect

      2. Tia Will

        I think the issue with conservatives and the flag burning is that it fits nicely into their perspective that the country is being taken over by people that really don’t like the country and want to transform it to something more like Venezuela.”

        Or perhaps it is that we would like to transform it to something more like Canada, or Denmark or ……pick your country that using far less of their economic resources proportionally manages to obtain far, far better education, and health and wellness outcomes for their populations while not killing massive numbers of their own population as well as untold numbers of Afghans, Iraqis and Syrians ( to name a few )?

        Had you perhaps considered it from that point of view ?

    2. Tia Will

      Tia can use her super ESP to tell that people are racist even when they say that they are not”

      Tia does not need ESP when the evidence is plain and in their own words on video.

      1. South of Davis

        People say a lot of things and clarify them later.

        Since Obama and Hillary have made anti-gay statements and Robert Byrd and Bill Clinton have made racist statements will you consider them as anti-gay and racist FOREVER?

        How about someone like John Kerry who is for, than against, then for a war?

        You really do need ESP to know what others are thinking and as you have said:

        “it is a matter of the uselessness and irrelevance of a comment made by and individual obviously incapable of mind reading.”

        https://www.davisvanguard.org/2016/04/katehi-put-on-investigative-leave/

        In addition to telling us what the new Trump cabinet members are thinking it would be nice if you could tell us ahead of time who will fill the final spots…

    3. Tia Will

      SOD

      “I think it is funny that conservatives want a “safe space” where they don’t have to ever see a flag burn.”

      Just as I saw it ironic when Frankly accused Colin Kaepernick of being “insensitive” for taking knee during the national anthem after posting about the ridiculousness of “hypersensitivity” and “victim mentality” on the part of various minorities.

      It is also interesting that if a conservative says something even once Tia will not let him change his mind (she can correct me if she feels that Obama and Hillary are anti-gay and if Robert Byrd and Bill Clinton are racists)”

      Show me their actual words, and I will give you my interpretation. And no, a lifetime of racist pronouncements followed by the statement, “I am not a racist”, does not count for me.

      1. South of Davis

        Tia wrote:

        > Show me their actual words, and I will give you my interpretation

        How about:

        “I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side … Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”

        Is the person that said this a “racist” forever?  Is someone that speaks at his funeral a racist?

        How about the many older men that in the “Mad Men” era thought it was crazy that women wanted to work that now employ mostly women in leadership and C level positions at their firms.  Are they “sexist”.

        P.S. I was not aware that Robert Byrd had died until I did a search for some “actual words” for Tia (I read some really bad quotes in the 80’s).  I’m guessing the the mainstream media did not want to make a big deal of him dying since the Dems have done such a great job “rebranding” the party of he KKK  as the party for people of color and “branding” the party of Lincoln as the racist party…

        http://www.dailywire.com/news/8696/flashback-bill-clinton-once-justified-robert-byrds-hank-berrien

        1. Tia Will

          South of Davis

          I believe that the people in the scenarios that you have named who are involved in the public sector should be considered racist or sexist right up until the time when they have publicly recanted their words and actions, sincerely apologized, and made a statement about their intent and proposals moving forward. Then and only then would I be likely to accept that they no longer adhered to racist or sexist ideas.

  12. Marina Kalugin

    To win an election these days one has to have either their own millions or billions depending on if it is local or not…

    or SELL OUT….the Dems are quickest to sell out…or else why would BO have a higher net worth and so on.

    While the Donald put his own money on the line..

    how do I know…..I see all and know all.

    I truly couldn’t fathom that the Donald would beat the heavily entrenched mostly Dem election fraud machine…..so I was so pleasantly surprised

    And did I burn a flag ever   wtf had time..

    though I spend my of my JH and HS days cutting school, hitchiking  to where the action was and spending much of most days I was not stupid… had to keep those GPAs up to go to LHS then UCD…right?   gimme a break..  priorities.

    Even in the top tracks it was still not much of a challenge, right?

    In SF where there were more than a dozen of each grade even L and H grades as the schools were so big…..it was a challenge to keep the uppermost motivated….I do not claim to be at that level…I was more high achieving…and english was my third language which was fluent in….

    But my brother who was a toddler when we arrived, and was riding the bus to a nearby HS for math when he was in elementary school, was way worse off..for one thing he was a boy..and another we had a smothering mothere..

    but I digress…only i@@@@@@ would go so far to burn flags at protests….often they are union schills who have no real job… haha

     

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