State and Local Economies Hammered as Officials Ponder Next Moves

Last week we learned that the city of Davis was now facing over a $20 million budget shortfall.  This week, the news if anything is worse statewide, as the state is forced to attempt to close a budget gap of more than $54 billion brought on swiftly by the COVID-19 recession.

“COVID-19 has caused California and economies across the country to confront a steep and unprecedented economic crisis – facing massive job losses and revenue shortfalls,” said Governor Newsom.

The governor added, “Our budget today reflects that emergency. We are proposing a budget to fund our most essential priorities – public health, public safety and public education – and to support workers and small businesses as we restart our economy.”

The governor also noted that “difficult decisions lie ahead.  He said, “With shared sacrifice and the resilient spirit that makes California great, I am confident we will emerge stronger from this crisis in the years ahead.”

“We are in a very different place now than when the governor released his initial state budget proposal in January,” Sen. Bill Dodd, who represents much of Yolo County in the State Senate, said in a statement on Thursday.

He continued, “COVID-19 has upended many of our plans, and unlike the federal government, California must pass a balanced budget and can’t print money. Thanks to years of building up our reserves and paying down debts, the state is better able to weather this downturn, but there are still tough choices ahead.”

“Gov. Newsom’s revised budget proposal is a responsible starting point for this new reality,” Sen. Dodd said. “I especially appreciate the critical investments included to build on our progress on wildfire preparedness and response. Those investments will save lives, homes and ultimately money. Over the next month, I’ll be working with my colleagues in the Legislature to refine and build on the governor’s proposal.”

Earlier this week, five western states including California signed a joint letter to leaders of both parties, requesting a combined $1 trillion in coronavirus relief funding from the federal government.

The letter warns that without such aid, states will be forced to make “impossible decisions” such as cutting public healthcare funding or laying off first responders and teachers should Congress not act.

“Without federal support, states and cities will be forced to make impossible decisions — like whether to fund critical public healthcare that will help us recover, or prevent layoffs of teachers, police officers, firefighters and other first responders,” they wrote.

“And, without additional assistance, the very programs that will help people get back to work — like job training and help for small business owners — will be forced up on the chopping block,” the governors continued.

But a $3 trillion package that would include the money needed for struggling states has been criticized as a “blue-state bailout” by Republican leaders.

The White House is threatening to veto any such legislation if it does make it through Congress, even as another three million people filed unemployment claims in the past week—a figure that brings the two-month tally to more than 36 million.

The White House said this week that the legislation proposed by House Democrats was more concerned with “delivering on longstanding partisan and ideological wish lists than with enhancing the ability of our nation to deal with the public health and economic challenges we face.”

Locally in Yolo County, the county health officials have amended the current shelter-in-place order to now allow childcare for non-essential workers, select services, and for outdoor museums and open gallery spaces to re-open while non-essential office-based businesses must remain closed.

In a release, the county stated, “While the State Order is in effect, counties are permitted to be more restrictive than the state regarding the re-opening of activities. The State’s Order now allows for office-based business to re-open, while strongly encouraging continued teleworking.”

The county will delay reopening non-essential offices until next week, as it develops localized guidance.

Face coverings would remain mandatory in Yolo County for the public and businesses.

Recently, the state announced they would allow for regional variation, or an opportunity for counties to move further into Phase Two and “reopen additional services or businesses if they could attest to meeting the State’s criteria by submitting a readiness plan that was approved by the local health officer and Board of Supervisors.”

In response, Yolo County says it “has developed a readiness plan and plan on submitting it to the State for final approval this week.”

Yolo County said on Thursday it “continues to monitor developments related to the State Order as well as local data. Additional amendments on loosening or tightening activities under the County’s Shelter-in-Place order will be based on developments related to these two areas.”

—David M. Greenwald reporting


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About The Author

David Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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44 Comments

  1. Keith Olsen

    The White House said this week that the legislation proposed by House Democrats was more concerned with “delivering on longstanding partisan and ideological wish lists than with enhancing the ability of our nation to deal with the public health and economic challenges we face.”

    The White House would be correct on this.  Surprisingly there are even some rational House Democrats left who oppose the bill.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/14/politics/democrats-uneasy-covid-aid-3-trillion/index.html

    1. Ron Glick

      Both sides are taking negotiating positions. This is all political kabuki. To date the real negotiations have been between Mnuchin and Pelosi. We will soon see who the players are this time.

    2. Richard McCann

      As it has been said “never waste a good crisis.” The economy has been broken for quite a while, but the fix isn’t setting up a “winner takes all” scenario which last hit us with full force in the 1920s and led to the Great Depression.

  2. Alan Miller

    I am a warrior on mandatory masks.  I’m very proud of our small county for being the first (still only?) small-ish county to require mandatory masks.  As TE pointed out yesterday in a long-lingering thread, it’s a freaking crime that Sacramento is not a mandatory mask county.  I blame their politicians.  I work there, so I have no plans to stop telecommuting (or buying anything there) anytime soon.  You can kiss my *ss Sacramento . . . from twelve feet away.

    As well, Napa and our neighboring Solano Counties also have not gone mandatory mask.  In other words, we are surrounded by idiots.  I recommend not crossing county lines for a couple of years.  As well Santa Clara County, with the highest concentration of cases, is inexplicably not mandatory mask.  At least my hometown of Palo Alto, adjacent to be-masked San Mateo County, said ‘f*ck you’ to it’s home dumb county, and passed a mandatory mask ordinance.

    I blame the pansies at the CDC.  They recommended that everyone wear a mask.  Pardon, but given the level of stupidity in the human race, how do you make something recommended when it only works when everyone is doing it?  And for shame on all the early flipping-waffling-misinformation-lies about masks early on in this thing.   Think how many transmissions we would have prevented if the U.S. government had required masks — including home versions like bandanas until we could get better ones — everywhere in early March.

    This has become a political and epidemiological cluster-F.

    Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.

    — Frank Zappa

      1. David Greenwald

        Proof? That’s your standard? This isn’t mathematics. We can only offer comparative statics, not proof.

        Here’s the Mayo Clinic:

        “Can face masks help prevent the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)? Yes, face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and social distancing, help slow the spread of the disease.”

      2. Alan Miller

        Frankly, JB (because you are), your hero country, Sweden, has 22 deaths per 100,000 people, and my hero country, Czechia, which took the approach of shutting schools, closing restaurants and bars and most stores, restricting travel and ordering mandatory quarantines for travelers from at-risk regions since early March, and made it compulsory for people to wear face masks in public, has a death rate of two per 100,000, 9% of your hero country. (Note they have almost identical population – deaths are 2274 vs. 223)

        Now, if Czechia goes into an economic slump that kills 11 times more people than Sweden’s booming economy a year or two from now, you are welcome to say “I told you so”.  For now, I’m sticking with Czechia.

        1. Alan Miller

          I realized the numbers were two weeks old.  Now:

          Sweden:  3646 (117 new deaths)

          Czechia:  295 (2 new deaths)

          You win!  (If you like lots of dead people)

          Check out the difference in the shape of the graphs between the two countries on World-O-Meter.

          But yeah, JB has “yet to read proof” 🙁

        2. Alan Miller

          Proposed new national anthem of Sweden:

          “Swe-den, Swe-den,

          we like to kill lots of our citizens,

          but our economy is good,

          and we like to sit in cafes,

          and we don’t like grandma and grandpa anyway,

          so die old Swedish people die!

          Oh, Swe-den!  Oh, Sweet, Young, Swe-den!”

           

        3. Doby Fleeman

          Thanks for your example of Czech Republic.   Having recently visited, the sights and sounds are fresh in my mind, as are the stories and recent history as conveyed by their bevy of bright, young tour guides.

          I gives me pause to wonder how their recent history under Communist rule and subsequent revolution has resulted in a bringing together of their people.  Similar to my impressions of Taiwan shortly after their period of martial law.   Nowhere near as homogenous as the culture of Taiwan, but still sharing a common experience with shared sacrifice and a plucky resistance towards an overbearing and all powerful government.

          Not much larger, by population than Los Angeles County (and able to focus and tailor all of their programs accordingly),  leaders of the Czech Republic appear to have taken a deliberate step in establishing firm dates for reopening – rather than the hodge podge that has characterized our efforts.

          In particular, I would note they clearly recognize the importance of timely reopening for the economic health of their many small businesses – which they targeted for reopening ahead of their larger brethren.  Shops up to 2,000SF were authorized for reopening Apr 27, followed May 11th by shops to 10,000 SF.   The May 251th authorization will cover outdoor restaurants, cafes, hairdressers, pedicures and various similar cosmetic services. Two weeks after than, June 8th, would mark the opening for indoor restaurants as well large format retail – over 50,000SF, and hotels.

          This information, dated 14 May, is courtesy of international accounting firm KPMG: https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2020/04/czech-republic-government-and-institution-measures-in-response-to-covid.html

          Point being, their plan offers clarity for everyone affected in their small country – versus the conflicting spectre and prosprictions of mini potentates we see here in California.

          Their plan also appears to place small and independently owned business on a more even footing with larger businesses versus the “essential businesses” approach adopted here at home – a selective approach which has wreaked havoc on untold numbers of small businesses and their employees.

          While California has done an admirable job of  reducing transmission and minimizing deaths due to the disease – the urgency for re-opening cannot be overemphasized.

        4. Jeff Boone

          Sweden made the mistake of not locking down the senior facilities.  Otherwise their approach would look much better.

          But the assessment of success for the various approaches will not be complete for several months and maybe years after we count all the dead from the impacts.   Sweden is very likely to come out smelling like a rose by comparison to the others that went full on fear-backed dictator.

  3. Alan Miller

    DF,

    Thank you for a very informative addendum regarding what Czechia is doing right.  I very much agree that their “plucky resistance towards an overbearing and all powerful government” is much ingrained in their culture and a great advantage in meeting an enemy such as Covid-19 with a similar and constructive attitude.   They are also now #1 on my ‘places to visit after Covid-19’ list.

    Having a big multi-cultural place like Los Angeles may be wonderful in normal times, but is a distinct killer when trying to unite people against a common enemy.

    And the other part of the equation often not talked about . . . they have a plan and a schedule . . . lock down heavy, then tell people when we open up, and . . . something I didn’t know before but agree with . . . open the small first, not the box stores.

    What do we do in here in California?  UNCERTAINTY. So instead of locking down and taking it seriously & letting people know if we all do this for 4-5 weeks we can open up on Schedule X — instead, we sort of kind of get the rates lower, but it’s still spreading, so maybe a few more months, we’ll see how it goes, and if we meet certainly guidelines, well, maybe, but maybe not . . . if businesses knew that if we all took this seriously they could open back up on June 1st, or June 15th, they could plan, get employees lined up, advertise, order stock — but as it is . . . well, maybe we’ll survive until an unknown opening date, when customers may fear coming in and to open would kill us faster.  Great plan, America the stupid!

    Huge numbers of stupid people are not taking this seriously.  Standing too close, traveling, hugging friends, believing they are not going to get it, not educating themselves on the true dangers of this disease, not recognizing that stopping a single transmission could save hundreds of persons down the line.  America isn’t built for this.  Our culture sucks.  We can’t fight a war anymore.  Half the people believe that if you can’t see an enemy, it doesn’t exist, or won’t harm *me*, or is a conspiracy, or it’s the other party’s fault.  So sail on America, into your stupid, half-arsed, no-schedule, slow-to-get-it, dumb future.

     

    1. Bill Marshall

      A bit over the top, Alan…

      I take it seriously, and take prudent, even ‘respectful’ precautions… masks, distancing (except with household, particularly, spouse), and hand-washing… but still travelling to CO next week to be with family… and, will be prudent travelling…

      Besides the idiot deniers, there are the idiot ‘panickers’… most recent… “covid attacking children” (the sky is falling!)… seems the medical consensus is coming to the conclusion that little kids, who are still ‘learning’ how to use their immune system, may be having symptoms that are due to their immune systems “over-reacting” to a virus they were exposed to, including, possibly, covid-19…

      We went thru this 33 years ago… our infant presented with fever, edema, wouldn’t nurse, cried so much that he could only ‘mew’… local doctor thought juvenile rheumatiod arthritis (did not respond to drugs)… she recommended going to UC Med center… they did a spinal tap (menenigitis)… negative… next possibilities were lupus, Kawasakis… all negative… after 6-7 weeks of going thru hell, the medical community settled on “over-reacting” to a virus they were exposed to… that infant ‘resolved’ shortly thereafter, is turning 34 this month, played rugby, working in construction, none the worse for wear…

      The deniers and the panickers are both suffering from RCI… the truth is, we need to know much more about covid-19, but in the meantime, we need to be prudent, informed as we can, but still live life… the being prudent thing seems to be working, but we have to move incrementally, with metrics (much more testing, watching/measuring infection rates)…

      The deniers and the panickers should be ignored… NEITHER have the truth within them… IMNSHO

      1. Alan Miller

        A bit over the top, Alan…

        I assure you there is no intention of being what you claim.  I mean every word.  I have no idea what you point was in the thing about children and your experience years ago.

        “I yam what I yam and that’s all what I yam.” — Popeye the Sailor

        1. Bill Marshall

          So, no one is exaggerating the covid-19, and… we should continue to stay in (semi) lockdown, to possibly avoid,

          the true dangers of this disease, not recognizing that stopping a single transmission (assuming that is local, state, national, worldwide) could save hundreds of persons down the line

          a very rigorous standard, yes?  No?

           

           

        2. Alan Miller

          So, no one is exaggerating the covid-19,

          I imagine some people are.  What is your point?

          and… we should continue to stay in (semi) lockdown

          No, I said we should have gone into total lockdown, not panzie lockdown, and then had a date set to open back up.  I said exactly the opposite of we should stay in panzie lockdown.

          So . . . sounds like we agree.

        3. Alan Miller

          WM,

          I reread your scree on the medical consensus of covid-19 on kids followed by some anecdote about one kids from decades ago.  Frankly, it’s nonsensical.

          And I missed this tidbit.

          but still travelling to CO next week to be with family…

          Are you f*cking crazy?  Or just selfish.  You are conducting interstate travel in the middle of a pandemic lockdown.  An even better question is . . . why would you admit it publicly? I guess you feel there are people who agree with your declaration of freedom. Well, since you are visiting Colorado, you might visit a diner in Castle Rock where you may find like minded people. Any respect I may have once had for you is gone.  Have a nice trip.

  4. John Hobbs

    Panzie lockdown? Shouldn’t that be Pansy, Alan? Are you naturally so rude or just venting at Covid? I would not travel unnecessarily right now, but I don’t know and so don’t judge what others’ needs might be. What a piece of work someone must be to hate their neighbors as much as you apparently do. I’m guessing you’ll have no problems social distancing in Davis, I can’t imagine you had that much company before the lockdown.

    1. Bill Marshall

      No, John…

      Alan (in my experience) has very strong beliefs/opinions, can be acerbic, but in my experience, not rude… he apparently does not trust my knowledge, and my strong predilection to be prudent (we’ll be doing the travel, [but not if we have symptoms, particularly fever], will be doing the mask/social distancing/handwashing, etc.), nor my informed judgment… which is OK…

      I just don’t believe “the sky is falling”, if one is prudent.

      Of the two family members we’ll be visiting, one gets evaluated every time she goes to work… the other is only ‘exposed’ to her, as he works heavy construction, wears a mask (for dust), and no one gets within 6 feet of him (lest they be injured) while he’s working… total risk = de minimus…

    2. Alan Miller

      Panzie lockdown? Shouldn’t that be Pansy, Alan? Are you naturally so rude or just venting at Covid? I would not travel unnecessarily right now, but I don’t know and so don’t judge what others’ needs might be. What a piece of work someone must be to hate their neighbors as much as you apparently do. I’m guessing you’ll have no problems social distancing in Davis, I can’t imagine you had that much company before the lockdown.

      The reason I have asked to always have JH personal attacks against me left up, is they say so much about him.

    3. Alan Miller

      Alan (in my experience) has very strong beliefs/opinions, can be acerbic, but in my experience, not rude…

      WM, while you are correct that I am acerbic by nature, I probably was closer to rude in my comments about your travel and do apologize.  I appreciate your thoughtful reply and you have earned my respect; I take back what I said above. Travel can be done relatively safely if done right, and I’m not asking you to justify your travel – I assume you have your reasons.  My comments were more aimed at my frustration with the cavalier attitude so many have with what we are dealing with, cavalier to the point of carelessness.  I should not have aimed that frustration at you.

  5. Jeff Boone

    I think there is a good argument to be made that the astounding high cost of this COVID-19 response is required to satiate the fear of death for the baby boomer generation that rejected God, and hence lost a faith that would otherwise serve to calm their fears, and instead decided scientist are the deity to worship.

      1. Jeff Boone

        No connection with this and my point.

        The natural world is a very scary place for humans.  We are the only animal that knows it will die.  There are a million things that will kills us… including diseases and even natural causes.   It is amazing that we can even get out of bed knowing this.  Some people cannot.  Agoraphobia is really an extreme manifestation of this inability to control the fear emotion over death… the worst being the fear of embarrassing death.   What probability is acceptable when death is 100% certain?

        Jeff, why is there a need for any “deity”?

        Good question Matt.  I think the better question is why is there any need for spirituality?  One of the problems with a non-monolithic secular-style spirituality is that risk of false idol substitution.  If you believe that spirituality is a human need, and I do, then there will be a natural pursuit to fill the need.  There are many examples of human needs being pursued for things that are not healthy.  Consider the poor urban males joining gangs in pursuit of a replacement for their missing psychological needs fulfillment that a whole family should otherwise provide.

        But back to the fear of death… I had a friend ask me that common question “do you ever ponder life after death?”  My answer is always the same: “this is a question only the living care about.”

        What makes us so self-centered that we believe that some likely very small and only partially calculable risk of death warrants so much forced human harm on others… without their choice to accept that risk?   That was my point, the growth of secularism has also produced much more narcissism and neuroticism.  There seems to be a lack of calming influence and binding answers to the big questions of life.  Get a big education and believe that you can mentally power through these things, and you end up curling into a ball of fear and threatening your neighbor for even considering increasing that risk and your fear.

        It is not a good look. But hey, those religious types are much more stupid… we we have that going for us.

        1. Don Shor

          But hey, those religious types are much more stupid… we we have that going for us.

          Headline: A person who was Covid-19 positive attended a church service and exposed 180 people, officials say
          https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/17/us/covid-19-mothers-day-church-exposure/index.html

          Those “religious types” probably just set back Butte County’s reopening by at least a couple of weeks, likely costing the businesses in that area a lot of money.
          Meanwhile, all scientific conferences that I am aware of have been cancelled.
          Secular people generally don’t “believe that spirituality is a human need.”

        2. Ron Oertel

          We are the only animal that knows it will die. 

          How about elephants?  Don’t they have a secret “burial ground” somewhere?  😉

          On a slightly more serious level, I understand that they actually do “mourn” when another dies, at times.

          Not that any of this is “off-topic”, but at least it’s probably a more interesting subject on a broader level.

          But (for me personally), it doesn’t cause me to “worship” science in the absence of religion. (At least, I hope not.)

          It does appear that all life is driven to survive (for the most part), as long as possible.

        3. Jeff Boone

          Secular people generally don’t “believe that spirituality is a human need.”

          Clearly… and it sometimes shows in their lack of a bedrock morality.  They tend to move their moral goalposts to suit their wants.  They are also prone to treat their politics like their religion… hence creating a good argument to point out that spirituality might very well be a human need.

          It does appear that at least Christianity is on the rise from the pandemic.  So there is that good news.

          1. Don Shor

            Secular people generally don’t “believe that spirituality is a human need.”

            Clearly… and it sometimes shows in their lack of a bedrock morality.

            Secular people do not lack a bedrock morality.

      2. Ron Oertel

        the worst being the fear of embarrassing death. 

        Trying to envision what that “looks” like, and hoping that Alan M. might come up with a few humorous examples.

        I can think of some, but not sure if I should share those examples.

    1. John Hobbs

      “I think there is a good argument to be made that the astounding high cost of this COVID-19 response is required to satiate the fear of death for the baby boomer generation that rejected God,”

      I think there is a good argument to be made that right-wing ideologues will slander anyone who disputes their right to dominate others. There is nothing “Godly” about greed, larceny, and callous disregard for human life.

  6. Jeff Boone

    How about elephants?

    You think that elephants would close down their elephant economy fearing some elephant virus with an actual mortality rate about the same as the annual elephant flu?

    That is, the instinct to survive seems to exist across all life forms, regardless of “awareness” of death.

    That is true.

    One of the difficulties in the Nazi concentration camps was the number of prisoners agreeing to make life miserable for the other guests to improve the favors they might enjoy from their captors that would help improve the odds of their survival.  Another problem was those that would work themselves to death while clutching some belief that it would improve their odds for not being killed by their captors.  But the difference in these cases is that the prisoners were forced to endure these risks of death.

    The fear of death is the primary weapon of the oppressor.  The oppressor can make otherwise friendly people turn on each other… exploit that animal instinct to survive… cause people to horde toilet paper… and to tell their neighbor “too bad so sad… you cannot keep your business or your job”.  So much for human developed morality and enlightenment.

    1. Ron Oertel

      I think that some of your examples (e.g., hording toilet paper) aren’t related to a fear of death.  But, the threat of death is the ultimate “weapon” as you put it – for most.

      But then, there’s people who don’t seem to care about that, either.  Or, who start actually “worshiping” it (e.g., martyrdom).

      But yes – it’s unfortunate that fears can be exploited.

      Regarding the issue at hand (e.g., opening the economy) – it seems to be moving in that direction. Personally, I don’t think I”m at the “extreme” of either end of the choices. I’m just an observer, regardless.

      I’d rather talk about secret elephant burial grounds (and “embarrassing” deaths), apparently.

       

    2. Bill Marshall

      Jeff…

      Elephants don’t bury their dead… there is some evidence that when elephants sense they are VERY not well, they move towards ‘something’… might even be ‘a place’…

      God or other “deity”, either exists, or not… goes to belief or faith/spirituality…

      I am an “applied scientist”… strongly believe in science and the scientific method… also believe in God, a “deity”, whatever one wants to call it… also a ‘hope’… that my essential existence does not end when my body ‘craps out’…

      One of my (many) favorite scientists, Pascal, actually posited a ‘wager’…

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

      I agree with Pascal… he passed (or, died, for the ‘secularists’… whatever “secularist” means… I understand what an ‘atheist means’, what an ‘agnostic’ means) before he turned 50…

      I’ve lived in both ‘worlds’… completely analytical, completely ‘faith’, and have never experienced a real conflict… time, place, manner…

      Personally, I’d wager that Pascal won his bet…

      That said, can we get back to talking about the pandemic and “rational” ways of mitigating/ending it?

      Not JUST aimed at you, Jeff, but a few other posters, as well, who are drifting off the topic…

    3. Alan Miller

      Alan (in my experience) has very strong beliefs/opinions, can be acerbic, but in my experience, not rude…

      WM, while you are correct that I am acerbic by nature, I probably was closer to rude in my comments about your travel and do apologize.  I appreciate your thoughtful reply and you have earned my respect; I take back what I said above. Travel can be done relatively safely if done right, and I’m not asking you to justify your travel – I assume you have your reasons.  My comments were more aimed at my frustration with the cavalier attitude so many have with what we are dealing with, cavalier to the point of carelessness.  I should not have aimed that frustration at you.

  7. Ron Oertel

    They are also prone to treat their politics like their religion… hence creating a good argument to point out that spirituality might very well be a human need.

    An interesting thought.

    Spirituality seems to exist across all cultures.

    Do we “need” it to be content?  I’m not sure.  And yet, I’m somehow comfortable without coming to any definitive conclusion.  Nor do I refer to it for “morality” – to my knowledge at least.

    All that I know for sure is that all living creatures die.

    This could easily be a topic onto itself, and would likely not lead to any conclusions.

    I just watched a PBS program, which provided an example of someone with a history of seizures (in the area of the temporal lobe) who experienced an enormous increase in “spirituality”, for lack of a better word.  He was talking excitedly about the order of the world (and all that are in it), that he then observed.  (Something like that.)  In other words, the “meaning” existed entirely in his brain. He also found it immensely pleasurable.

    The main topic of the program was about the brain, itself.

  8. Bill Marshall

    At the real risk of continuing off topic…

    Secular people do not lack a bedrock morality.

    I would opine that Don is absolutely correct (still trying to find a full definition of ‘secular people‘) but I’d amend it to say,

    Many Secular people do not lack a bedrock morality.

    Many other folk also lack a bedrock morality, including some who ‘profess’ as ‘spiritual’ and/or ‘religious’… of any stripe… aka ‘hypocrites’…

    So, still “off topic”, basically agree with Don on this…

    Can we all get back to the topic?  Mitigating and/or eliminating covid-19, and (literally and figuratively) “moving on”?

    There are both medical and economic factors that strongly suggest that should be our focus, at this point…

     

  9. Ron Oertel

    the worst being the fear of embarrassing death. 

    I’ll go ahead and put forth some more thoughts about the “elephant in the room”, so to speak.

    If one does not believe in an “afterlife”, would they actually be concerned about an “embarrassing” death?  Would they be worried about what happens regarding their reputation, after they’re gone?

    And, if they weren’t guided by religious-based morals in the first place, would they have a different definition of “embarrassing”?

    Deep, isn’t it?  😉

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