Commentary: It Won’t Be This Year on Measure J

When Measure J—the original version—was put on the ballot in 2000, it was a tightly fought and hotly contended election.  It wound up winning relatively narrowly.  The idea was to require a citizen’s vote any time the city developed on land outside of the current city boundaries.

Since then the support has been overwhelming—there was no real opposition in 2010 and it passed by a 3 to 1 margin.

While the housing climate in Davis is clearly shifting, even in 2020 there has been at most scattered voices of protest.

But those voices are few and far between.  They did not put an opposition statement on the ballot.  There were few opposing views expressed at either council or the Planning Commission meeting.  And the votes to move forward were all unanimous.

The strongest critical voices expressed were by Darryl Rutherford on the Planning Commission and Gloria Partida on the council.  Both ultimately supported it going forward.

Some of the melting of that opposition is due to the fact that in 2018 two measures passed by comfortable margins.

Now Mayor Partida said, “I agree that if I hadn’t seen the last two projects pass, I would be feeling a lot different about this particular measure.”

But she also expressed concerns.

Partida stated, “I also think we need to acknowledge some pretty negative impacts that we have created” with the city’s overall policy on development.

“Our cost of housing has increased so much that it’s impossible for people who grew up here to stay here,” she said.  “It’s also made it impossible for graduates of UC Davis to stay here as I did 30 years ago.

“These types of initiatives cause a lack of diversity in communities,” she said regarding racial and socio-economic issues.  “It’s a sad irony that most of the progressive cities in America are also the most segregated.”

Gloria Partida also pushed back on the notion that this community has preserved agricultural land.

“We have driven our people onto other ag land and caused them to commute into Davis,” she said, noting her difficulty turning left from Picasso onto Pole Line because everyone is commuting from North North Davis.  “When we say we’re trying to preserve our life and the environment through this measure, we must acknowledge that mostly (what) we’re preserving is the footprint of the city.  Unless we are working to provide some infill housing and really work on mitigating the effects of the increase of the population here, I think we need to do a better job there.”

While I understand that people will point to the two measures passing in 2018, to me those don’t prove nearly as much as people think.  Neither project figured to directly impact people’s lives.  A much bigger test for Measure J will be DISC.

I do think—and polling I have seen in the last year proves—that people are more concerned about housing and the impact of higher costs on the community.  But ultimately it comes down to near neighbor effects to drive city policy.

While the concerns laid out by Partida echo some of the concerns expressed in yesterday’s Monday Morning Thoughts column, there are several reasons I believe that Measure J is not the barrier to housing that many critics believe.

First, as we have analyzed before, there really is not a huge amount of developable land near the city.  Looking at a map, huge swaths of land are effectively off the table—to the south due to the county line, southwest due to UC Davis, to the west due to agricultural easements, while to the north there are a few developable properties and to the east, not so much.

Basically we have the portions of the northwest quadrant, Covell, and the few properties to the north and east of the Mace Curve—and that is largely it.

Second, even without Measure J/R there are huge barriers to development.

Really focus here on three:

First, as we have seen with most of the infill projects, there are quite a few internal barriers to developing.  Modified projects have been approved for things like Sterling and the Hyatt House, but University Commons remains in doubt, despite its proximity to the university, and housing costs have hindered the development at the University Commons Mixed Use project.

Second, lawsuits.  Lawsuits at the University Park effectively shut down the conference center proposal there.  It delayed other projects like Lincoln40 and Nishi.  It stopped Trackside.  Whether you agree or disagree with the lawsuits, they have had an impact—slowing down the development of projects, raising the costs, and on rare occasions stopping them altogether.

Third, this is a point that Dan Carson has made and he is correct on—nothing prevents the public from putting projects on the ballot anyway.

One of the most contentious land use battles was Wildhorse—Measure J was not in place yet and, still, it ended up on the ballot as a contentious land use issue.

The issue here is clear—if people want a vote, it is not that hard to gather signatures and put it on the ballot.  Better to have a formal process, baseline features, and the expectation of a vote.

While I share a lot of the concerns that Gloria Partida expressed, and I very much regret that we did not have a deeper discussion on both the positives and downsides of Measure R, I think overall Measure R itself is a symptom of a larger problem, one that was articulated quite fully in the Politico article and our analysis of the Davis situation.

—David M. Greenwald reporting

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About The Author

David Greenwald is the founder, editor, and executive director of the Davis Vanguard. He founded the Vanguard in 2006. David Greenwald moved to Davis in 1996 to attend Graduate School at UC Davis in Political Science. He lives in South Davis with his wife Cecilia Escamilla Greenwald and three children.

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95 Comments

  1. Eric Gelber

    I’m not sure anyone has suggested that Measure J is the only, or even the primary, obstacle to development needed to address housing affordability. One of my problems with Measure J (and the initiate process generally) is that it’s an up or down vote, with no opportunity to address issues that may arise or become apparent after the Council decides to put a proposal on the ballot. Further, it encourages the public decision makers to avoid addressing difficult issues, instead reasoning, let the voters decide.

  2. Ron Glick

    “Third, this is a point that Dan Carson has made and he is correct on—nothing prevents the public from putting projects on the ballot anyway.”

    Problem is that J/R shifts the responsibility from being a referendum on a project to being an initiative. In other words it moves the vote from after the fact with a tight timeline to before the decision with an infinite planning timeline. The result is that lawsuits, delays and voter denials have combined to prevent any J/R project from being built in 20 years.

  3. Bill Marshall

    The issue here is clear—if people want a vote, it is not that hard to gather signatures and put it on the ballot. 

    True story… been saying that for years.  Measure J/R/D is unnecessarily redundant, and adds only to “the spanking machine”…

    Better to have a formal process, baseline features, and the expectation of a vote.

    Here, we disagree… first, a referendum is a formal process, after all the other formal processes… Measure J/R/D is unnecessary, and a wrongful impediment.  Second, Wildhorse (the referendum you cite), had pretty much all approvals, including a Development Agreement (nailing down ‘baseline features’, and then some) in place when it was placed on the ballot.  Third, there is always the expectation of a vote without J/R/D… a vote by the CC, our representatives.  Fourth, a referendum is always a ‘risk’.  Just not in favor of codifying risks, if their are ‘remedies’.

    I do like the letter assigned to the extension measure… “D“… as in, Deleterious, Delaying, Dumb, etc.  The genius of those who support J/R/D, is the realization that when put to a vote, anything that isn’t crystal clear will generate ~ 10-15% NO votes… when in doubt, 10-15% of folk vote no… on ANY matter..

    I oppose the extension (wish I had a “hell no” option on the ballot!), as there are already ‘remedies’ in place, and as David has noted,

    if people want a vote, it is not that hard to gather signatures and put it on the ballot. 

    And it should be noted that the Wildhorse referendum, failed, big time…

    1. Bill Marshall

      Ex:  Note how easy it was to get over twice the signatures needed to put the DJUSD trustee replacement on the ballot… in a pretty short period of time…

  4. Keith Olsen

    Why the talk that the people can just do a referendum if they want to vote on a project in lieu of Measure J/R??

    The people have already spoken (voted), twice, both times passing Measure J and R.

     

    1. Bill Marshall

      The “people” here now, under the current facts, are not necessarily the same (two levels)… Measure J/R did not come off the top of a mountain in the Mideast, written in stone, as much as some folk would like to believe that true… a fact no one can Sinai…

      In previous generations, it was established law that there was slavery, race restrictions on housing, no booze sales (or ANY shopping) on Sundays… things change…

      1. Bill Marshall

        An epiphany?

        My point was that even without Measure J there are ways for the voters to stop or slow projects.

        I’ve made that point for a long time, and you generally dismissed it (referendum).. saying it was too onerous, or  other ‘excuses’/rationalizations…

        But now it’s “safe” to say, when the oddsmakers consider renewal a “gimme”?

      1. Bill Marshall

        Yeah, my ‘take’, too, Keith O…  the dude needs more sleep, so he can ‘proof’ himself, IMHO…

        And, altho’ I’ll be voting “no on D”, I think the conventional wisdom (and way to place bets) is that renewal is semi ‘done-deal’… as are two of the DJUSD trustee seats (but, I drift)…

        Yet, when the odds are long, that J/R/D will fail, I’ll sometimes take the ‘contrarian bet’… in investments, that sometimes helps balance the portfolio…

        I completely, vehematly reject the idea that the measure is racist… I believe that there is some (yeah, actually, a lot) measure of ‘greed’ in support of the measure… but the ‘protecting investment’ issue is our kid’s problem, not ours…

        I just believe Measure J/R/D is unnecessary, and bad governance.  Purely philosophic (and beware when an engineer/surveyor type waxes philosophic!)… can’t imagine a scenario where I’d vote to approve an extension of an unnecessary, and troubling ordinance…

        1. Bill Marshall

          Measure J/R/D, at least IMNSHO opinion, an expression of folk wanting to have nearly complete “control” over others… just to “have control”… ‘the environment’, ‘preserving prime Ag land’, etc. are ‘window dressings’… not the true, underlying motives…

          I neither support, nor oppose development/growth… I’m one of those jerks that believe in fair and transparent ‘process’… J/R/D [wish I could come up with a clever way to express that, but all I can come up with is JeRkeD]…

          So, now my PSA… please vote (assuming eligible) in November, and trust me in saying that VBM is not a nefarious plot [by any entity] to influence the elections… every VBM actually gets more scrutiny than ‘normal’ ballots… before they are counted!

          I actually care not how you vote… if for Measure D, fine… if against Measure D, even finer… but no vote, no whine, as to outcome!  I’m adamant on that!

        2. Alan Miller

          Yeah, my ‘take’, too, Keith O…  the dude needs more sleep, so he can ‘proof’ himself, IMHO…

          I suggested that repeatedly several years ago:  take Saturday off.  “And on the seventh day, God rested, but David Greenwald kept on going”.

          1. David Greenwald

            I guess it’s a testament to how far we’ve come – no one seems to notice the days when I don’t write anything.

        3. Alan Miller

          I completely, vehematly reject the idea that the measure is racist…

          I don’t think most people’s intent is racist.  I think the outcome is it keeps out even more of the lower end of the economic spectrum than Davis already does.

  5. Tia Will

    I very much regret that we did not have a deeper discussion on both the positives and downsides of Measure R,”

    With this, I completely agree. I also think if we are going to consider doing away with Measure R, we need to not only consider, but come up with an alternative which provides for not just building, but building in such a way that the targeted populations ( lower socioeconomic and or minority) can actually afford that housing.

    1. Bill Marshall

      I also think if we are going to consider doing away with Measure R…

      Actually, that is, practically, off the table… it has been set up that it is either a 10 year extension, or perhaps a re-do…

      we need to not only consider, but come up with an alternative which provides for not just building, but building in such a way that the targeted populations ( lower socioeconomic and or minority) can actually afford that housing.

      Then, you should vote NO on D… or wait 10 years to get to the place you suggest… your objectives would be best realized by voting NO in NOvember, and following up with a measure that aligns with your stated objectives… but, I realize that “won’t be a happening thing” for you, but if D is approved, there is not a ‘snowball’s chance in Hell’ that your objectives will be met… at least not in the next decade…

    2. Ron Glick

      Tia, if you want that honest discussion, vote no. Voting no will mean that the next city council will need to have a serious discussion about reauthorization instead of the panglossian exercise they engaged in this time. In the meantime, as both David and Carson have argued, we will still have the referendum.

  6. Ron Oertel

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but the primary reason I oppose most peripheral developments might be summed up in the photo accompanying this article.  Preserve farmland, discourage sprawl, encourage infill (“smart growth”).

    Very little discussion of that, on the Vanguard.

    If other communities want to encourage sprawl, so be it.  You’ve got to pick-and-choose your battles. If it was up to me, development across the region would be much different.

    I recall about 15 years ago, someone telling me that the site proposed for DISC might someday be proposed for development.  I thought he was nearly insane. Who, exactly, looks at that site and says to themselves, “if only there was a huge development there, it would be so much nicer”?

    But obviously, Measure J/R can be used to approve peripheral developments, as well.  We’ve already seen that.

     

     

     

    1. Eric Gelber

      Measure J/R has nothing to do with sprawl or smart growth. In fact, it’s antithetical to smart growth: By simply voting up or down on individual projects, there’s no overall planning involved.

      1. Ron Oertel

        Measure J/R has nothing to do with sprawl or smart growth.

        That response is nearly insane, as well.

        By the way, despite the way it’s portrayed on here – Davis is (by no means) the only town which discourages sprawl.

        Though it might be the strongest in the immediate region.

        You might want to look at actual documentation, regarding the underlying reasons for Measure J/R (before putting forth theories).

        1. Eric Gelber

          You might want to look at actual documentation, regarding the underlying reasons for Measure J/R (before putting forth theories.

          Things don’t always work out as planned. Initial intent isn’t always reflected in implementation outcomes.

        2. Ron Oertel

          I think it worked-out pretty well, regarding Covell Village and the Wildhorse site.

          And at this point, I’m not terribly unhappy about Nishi or WDAAC (though I still don’t think much of the “Davis buyer’s” program).

          Now, would approval of Covell Village “spared” the creation of Spring Lake? I doubt it. Woodland, for example, has almost never met a development they don’t like.

          Again, if it was up to me, development would be much different across the region.

          One of the first things I would suggest is looking at the German model, where “profit” resulting from conversion of farmland (for development) are kept be the community, rather than the developer.

        3. Ron Oertel

          And in fact, plans for Spring Lake were created PRIOR to the Covell Village proposal.

          And Eric, your 9:36 a.m. comment above is something I might routinely expect from others on here, but not you.

        4. Richard McCann

          And Eric, your 9:36 a.m. comment above is something I might routinely expect from others on here, but not you.

          The truth is dawning on others as well. Ron, you try to dress up your irrational opposition to all change with “reasoning” that is full of holes.

          All Measure J/R/D does is provide a relief valve to remove the pressure to move forward with a comprehensive planning exercise. Have you noticed that we are more than a decade out of date on our General Plan? When you can leave decisions about land use to the voters and avoid any direct responsibility, why would you as a Council member want to take on a controversial process that will make you more enemies than friends?

        5. Robb Davis

          To Richard’s point I would note that for a City Council member Measure J/R/D is very difficult to deal with and I left the CC really unclear how to approach projects subject to it.

          With Nishi 1, I spent weekends and nights negotiating terms of that project to try to get what I thought was best for the community.  Anyone who remembers that knows that I spent significant time listening to MANY people in the community.  I paid attention to various perspectives. I tried to account for these needs in what I attempted to put into the baseline features and DA. When I voted to put that one on the ballot, I really felt like we had offered the community a solid project that, while imperfect, met community needs.

          For my efforts I was told I had sold out the city, that I did not care about affordable housing, and that I was “in the pocket” of the developers (in other words, I was corrupt).

          Nishi 2 and West Davis were very different.  Council members did not want to serve on a subcommittee with me to shepherd the process. And while I took the attitude that my job was to negotiate the best terms, I questioned how much time I should really spend on this given that it would all be attacked anyway and no matter what opponents would say whatever it took to defeat it.  I also knew that it was all going to come down to “marketing”—who could define and control the narrative that would go into the campaign.  I had been naive about that in Nishi 1.

          I also expected lawsuits.  I focused mostly on the disclosures related to the EIR so that no one could say we failed to disclose critical EIR issues.  But I guess I came to the conclusion that Measure R/J was not really about due diligence concerning the merits of the project and how to make it better because no matter how much time I tried to put into making it something that could benefit the community there was going to be a fight.  And, of course, I was right.

          Maybe I should not admit this but I really do not think Measure J/R/D is about sound planning.

        6. Ron Oertel

          And yet, Robb – the city is facing a lawsuit regarding Trackside. To which it’s lost, so far.

          Is anyone arguing that Trackside would “lower housing prices”?

          And, UCD faced a lawsuit regarding its prior LRDP (which at the time, included a technology park on campus).  With a current council member apparently as a party to that lawsuit.

          The same council member who thinks it’s “just fine” to put it on the other side of town, on prime farmland, with almost 6,000 parking spaces – adjacent to an already-impacted roadway system and freeway.

        7. Robb Davis

          I honestly do not understand the “And yet…” What is your point there.  I was laying out the challenge of how to conceptualize and engage Measure J/R/D as a CC member.  Trackside was not a Measure J/R/D so I am not sure what your point is.

        8. Ron Oertel

          You mentioned lawsuits (e.g., in regard to a Measure R proposal), so I was providing an example of an infill proposal which resulted in a lawsuit. By no means the only infill proposal that has faced lawsuits.

        9. Alan Miller

          > For my efforts I was told I had sold out the city, that I did not care about affordable housing, and that I was “in the pocket” of the developers (in other words, I was corrupt).

          Haters gonna hate.  “Shake it Off!” — Taylor Swift

          I appreciate your efforts in Nishi 1, a far superior project to what was approved.

          > I guess I came to the conclusion that Measure R/J was not really about due diligence concerning the merits of the project and how to make it better

          It’s about how to sell to the public with race/age/green talking points.

          > I really do not think Measure J/R/D is about sound planning.

          Well said.  It seems sitting council members (at least those that want to be re-elected) can’t admit this, as JeRkeD is seen as the third rail of Davis politics (even though no railroads in Davis have a third rail).

        10. Alan Miller

          > Is anyone arguing that Trackside would “lower housing prices”?

          At the time, the Campus Democrats did.  I know, cuz I asked a couple of them when they showed up en masse at the meeting where the council voted, after two years of our attending council meetings (OEDNA) and the Camp Dems having never complained or even showed up before that last meeting.  I asked, “why would you take a position and show up to support something that isn’t for students and is designed as a luxury project”?  I was told (paraphrase):  “We support any project in Davis that will increase housing stock”.

        11. Ron Oertel

          Well, they would be wrong.

          So, the Trackside proposal that Robb (and other council members) supported wouldn’t do anything to lower housing prices, nor did The Cannery.

          But truth be told, I think Trackside wasn’t bad, except for those little cottages next to it.

          And frankly, it seems to me that there’s nothing inherently wrong with “luxury housing”. I’d rather have “luxury housing” next to me, than anything else. (Actually, I’d rather live in “luxury housing”, as well. But, that’s another subject.)

          Ultimately, those living in or near downtown probably should expect some changes.  Now, whether or not a 3-story proposal would “pencil out” is something we may never know.

  7. Alan Miller

    Again you repeat Gloria Partida’s great remarks on Measure JeRkeD, and my complete flabbigastory as to why she didn’t follow her comments with a NO vote.

    1. Ron Oertel

      If she was concerned about the creation of housing shortages, maybe she shouldn’t be advocating for DISC.

      In this case, Measure J/R can actually be used to DISCOURAGE housing shortages.

      1. Ron Glick

        You keep making this argument but its sort of an if we don’t build it they won’t come argument. Something that in my lifetime has been proven wrong by the empirical evidence that world population has gone from 2.7 billion to 7.5 billion and California has gone from 15 million to 40 million.

        1. Richard McCann

          Ron O prefers to live in a fantasy land where the Davis housing market will somehow fall back into a “sweet equilibrium” if we just stop trying to encourage economic activity of any kind and freeze our community into a continual “Groundhog Day” loop. He’s rather not have to acknowledge that he may have some inconveniences for us to solve our societal problems. It’s ironic that he seems to profess progressive ideals but puts forward reactionary solutions.

      2. Ron Oertel

        Ron O prefers to live in a fantasy land where the Davis housing market will somehow fall back into a “sweet equilibrium”.

        I don’t know about “sweet”, but markets are always ultimately in “equilibrium”. The supply-and-demand model that you seem so fond of (while somehow ignoring the purposeful creation of “demand”, e.g., with DISC).

        While also ignoring “who” fulfills that demand (e.g., Bay Area transplants, for example).

  8. Keith Olsen

    You gotta love the arguments being put forward that elected officials should be deciding development policies not the voters but when elected school board officials filled a temporary position then oh no, that must be voted on.

    1. Ron Oertel

      You gotta love the arguments being put forward that elected officials should be deciding development policies not the voters but when elected school board officials filled a temporary position then oh no, that must be voted on.

      Yeap – that’s what I noted yesterday.  How odd.

      If anything, council members are more susceptible to corruptive influences (to achieve office), than the elected representatives on a school board.

    2. Richard McCann

      There is at least one better solution, e.g., voting on a binding set of development requirements such as resource use, housing requirements, transportation measures and if a developer complies, then the Council can approve it.

  9. Ron Oertel

    Ron G: “You keep making this argument but its sort of an if we don’t build it they won’t come argument. Something that in my lifetime has been proven wrong by the empirical evidence that world population has gone from 2.7 billion to 7.5 billion and California has gone from 15 million to 40 million.”

    I must have accidentally “ignored” you as a commenter, as I can’t see your comments unless I log out.  Therefore, I’ve repasted your comment above.

    I’m not sure what “argument” you think I’m making.  I just noted what’s in the SEIR for DISC, in that it will create a demand for 1,200 residential units in ADDITION to the 850 on-site units.  (And, that’s in Davis, alone.)

    In addition to the 1,700 units needed in surrounding communities, to support DISC.

    As far as the rest of your comment, another commenter provided data which SHOWED that Davis has been keeping up with its fair share of growth, using the comparisons you’ve noted.  (Without even discussing the RHNA requirements, which it has also met and exceeded.)

    There is still a problem regarding whether or not the “megadorm” (group housing) will count toward those RHNA requirements.  And yet, the city just continues to plow ahead, without knowing that answer. Something that continues to be ignored on here, as well.

  10. Doby Fleeman

    Robb, thank you for sharing your concerns.  I would have to agree with your comment:

    Maybe I should not admit this but I really do not think Measure J/R/D is about sound planning.

    The problem confronting Davis is an unwillingness to face the need for planning.  As others have observed, Planning is inherently contentious and expensive and politically fraught.  While at the same time, we are a community of “acknowledged experts” who feel qualified and entitled (as residents) to “help direct the process” (even in topics for which such experts have no certified or professional qualifications).  Efforts to navigate those competing tensions has proven to be a major challenge for this community.

    Measures J/R/D are reflective of, and in response to, this dysfunction and serve as a project-by-project failsafe – in the absence of a sound planning backdrop.   They serve as an escape hatch, rather than as a tool of proactive planning.

    A more thoughtful approach to this renewal would have recognized, in advance of the current election cycle, this long overdue need to confront our failed planning process – and use the occasion of this renewal as a reminder of our delinquent status and a lever – with maybe a two-three year extension – to accelerate community conversations around the topic of future plans.

    Sadly, the occasion of this renewal wasn’t even used to discuss or explore, much less recognize, the urgent need for this long  overdue conversation within the community – and does no favor to incoming City Councils in terms of prioritizing the issue.

     

     

     

     

     

    1. Richard McCann

      While at the same time, we are a community of “acknowledged experts” who feel qualified and entitled (as residents) to “help direct the process” (even in topics for which such experts have no certified or professional qualifications).

      Doby

      You inappropriately dismiss the expertise that this community brings to many issues, which most often exceeds the expertise of the City staff on many matters. Please respect the well informed opinions and facts presented on many of these issues.

      1. Doby Fleeman

        Richard,

        My sincere apologies if that is how you and others have interpreted my charge.

        I try to be informed and value different opinions.  Though I may not always speak kindly of hired-guns and consultants, I don’t dismiss lightly the work of recognized experts in a given field and I know we have many such experts here in Davis.   It is very helpful to me to understand a given commissioner’s or commenter’s academic achievements, together with their career and professional experience in a given field of specialization.  Where I have a problem is with self-professed experts (some with limited direct experience, some none) who believe – that because they are an expert in one field – they are somehow entitled to be influential voices on multitudes of important topics pertaining to city government – but for which they have little direct experience or expertise.

        I would never want to discourage anybody from pursing their passions, interests and enthusiasm – particularly for projects offering a common, civic benefit but I am clearly more likely to listen to those with achievements and accomplishments to accompany their admonitions.

        From a standpoint of good governance and civic priority setting, the related challenge for any academically oriented community, with a plethora of subject matter experts, is the tendency for any topic to be technically parsed and siloed to near death status – often losing sight of the forest from trees.  We often seem to end up in this very pasture.  Just saying it can be a difficult field of play.

        For our professional Administrators, attempting to oversee and umpire the big picture, it’s got to be a bit overwhelming – setting limits and knowing how much time should be devoted to POV “A” versus competing POV “B”.   Bottom line analysis overload from TMI.  Davis is a “high maintenance” constituency for anyone trying to “be inclusive, and do good government”.

        Like you, I suspect, my much larger concerns involve “How do we get to good process?”.

        In that regard, I don’t consider a General Plan which is practically-speaking two decades out of date to be a good indicator of good process.  Were that we had kept up on our planning obligations, I like to imagine we would have far fewer deeply contentious outcomes and seemingly intractable squabble over the details.

        1. Bill Marshall

          One solution is for the City staff to do less, not more. We have released a proposal to improve City decision making by relying on the expertise in our commissions.

          Great idea… solves two problems…

          Get rid of staff, their expertise, professional opinion… just go with the commissions, appointed by CC, w/o any vote… the commissioners are unbiased, knowledgeable, SME’s… gods and goddesses… oracles…

          Saves a lot of money with the elimination of professional staff, inc. pension, medical, other liabilities, and will be truly be ‘democratic’, and much wiser, better informed…

          Better governance right?

           

  11. Ron Glick

    “Maybe I should not admit this but I really do not think Measure J/R/D is about sound planning.”

    Of course this begs the question what do you think J/R/D is about?

    I too, have this out of the box idea that I have been reluctant to share, about development in general that J/R/D is part and parcel with (pun intended).

    I believe it is really about territory. Territory is one of the things that humans will fight over. The others being food, mates, self defense, protection of children and social status.

    Of course people will never admit this but the behaviors we can observe meet the test of inductive reasoning. If you are  against peripheral growth of housing and against densification of housing it demonstrates that you are against more housing. Underneath it all, whether the argument is about traffic, noise or farmland, it says you don’t want more people in your territory.

    I think this is the case with the U Mall and the neighbors. They don’t want to give over what was a community resource to hundreds of students. They don’t want to give up territory they perceive as part of their dominion or even share it with more people.

    Since territory is something that humans are willing to fight over it should be no surprise that Robb Davis, someone who I would describe as a model of what a public servant should be, because he led by example, was accused of being what he described as corrupt.

    I remember Will Arnold being called a “traitor” shortly after he said that the day he was sworn in as a CC member was the proudest day of his life.

    When it comes to protecting territory humans can become vicious so it should be no surprise that fights over development reach reflexive levels of hostility that reach far beyond what we think of as civil discourse. It becomes almost Pavlovian. You ring the development bell and those that are against giving up any territory immediately start to salivate over opportunities to undermine the proposed project.

    Welcome to Davis.

     

    1. Alan Miller

      You ring the development bell and those that are against giving up any territory immediately start to salivate over opportunities to undermine the proposed project.

      That’s an odd, and I don’t believe accurately descriptive, metaphor.

    2. Richard McCann

      Davis claims to home to many “progressives.” That means that they are willing and able to overcome their base human emotions and drives when they conflict with the greater good. Overcoming those drives is why we have civilization. If progressives in Davis are not willing to put aside their base desires to protect their “territory” then they must admit that they are hypocrites. Or they can identify that flaw and work to overcome it after acknowleding it.

      1. Bill Marshall

        Richard… I seldom disagree with you… but…

        Most ‘progressives’ I’ve known are following their “base emotions” to a “T”… #1… they’re right, everyone else is wrong, deluded, needing therapy, etc. #2 they want the law to force everyone else to conform to their “base emotions”/world view…

        Most ‘true conservatives’ I’ve known are following their “base emotions” to a “T”… #1… they’re right, everyone else is wrong, deluded, needing therapy, etc. #2 they want the law to force everyone else to conform to their “base emotions”/world view…

        It is what it is…

        And I follow a different path… or, at least commit to…

         

      2. Alan Miller

        “progressives.” That means that they are willing and able to overcome their base human emotions and drives when they conflict with the greater good . . . If progressives in Davis are not willing to put aside their base desires to protect their “territory” then they must admit that they are hypocrites.

        I’ve never actually heard a definition for “progressive” before, but “someone who believes they are overcoming their base human emotions and drives when those are in conflict with the greater good, but are actually hypocrites because the are not really willing to so”, is a great definition.

  12. Ron Oertel

    Ron G.  ” . . . someone who I would describe as a model of what a public servant should be,”

    Below is someone I would describe as meeting that description.  Fortunately, he’s not the only one.

    Griffin worked on land acquisition for Audubon for 11 years, helping to prevent the development of a city on the east shore of Tomales Bay, a freeway connecting West Marin to Sonoma County, a water pipeline from the Russian River and a planned nuclear facility near Bodega Bay.

    https://www.marinij.com/2020/07/21/marty-griffin-savior-of-marin-open-space-nears-100th-birthday/

    Thought not directly/necessarily related to Measure J/R, it’s well-past time for people to stop “apologizing” for preserving what’s left, or searching for b.s. reasons not to do so.

     

  13. Robb Davis

    Of course this begs the question what do you think J/R/D is about?

    It’s a textbook example of privilege.  Those who “have” using fully legal means to exclude others and insulate themselves from any change.

    When I ran for office I supported Measure J because I felt strongly that the natural resource around us is something worth being careful to conserve (not preserve).  The trade off to me was that we would create a denser/higher multi family community over time with limited incursions into Class 1 soil that is the most productive on the planet.

    But then every infill project was met with opposition and so-called progressives made it clear to me that the the only thing they wanted was no change.  Others felt that density was unhealthy. Based on everything I knew and understood about reducing carbon footprint I felt we needed to build more housing of a dense variety but I could find very few allies in Davis who accepted that.  People acted like our carbon reduction goals ended at the Davis border and they apparently accepted that having people drive ever-longer distances to work at the University was okay because, hey, we were not growing our GHG emissions.

    All the while these same progressives hung our inclusionary housing ordinance on the wall like a certificate to prove how progressive they were while nothing ever got built based on 30% inclusionary rate.  But at least we could say how progressive we are—look at our certificate!

    Every project was like a running street battle with everyone wanting what they wanted in the way they wanted it and never wanted to have to accept “no.”

    Like I said, privilege.

    I hope I am not being obtuse.

    1. Ron Oertel

      Sorry that you feel that way.

      For me, it’s ultimately about a failure to accept limits (whether it’s infill, or sprawl). I could envision the battle that would occur, as soon as “smart growth” was proposed as a “solution”. (Though truth be told, Davis isn’t all that dense – compared even to parts of Sacramento.)

      If I had to choose one, I’d generally suggest infill.

      But again, I find it astonishing that those who claim to be concerned about housing “shortages” consistently (and purposefully) fail to consider “demand” (e.g., such as that created by DISC). Assuming, of course, that it’s actually constructed beyond the phases which are subsidized (for the developer) by the housing. The EPS analysis, as well as the finance and budget commission questioned that. One of the commissioners called it a “fairytale”, among other things.

      I think you also fail to consider the efforts by some to ensure that UCD addressed its own needs.  It was like pulling teeth, to get the city to do anything.  (Coupled with resistance from the development activists, who resisted that effort.)

        1. Ron Oertel

          Maybe so.  But I am quite familiar with the efforts of others (including myself, to a lesser degree).

          Ultimately, that agreement has been criticized as being “weak”. Some were apparently not willing to take legal action – regardless of the university’s willingness (or refusal) to cooperate in addressing the need it was creating.

          No wonder, when they’re collecting approximately $45,000/year from non-resident students. The same reason that the UC system itself was apparently favoring those students. Not sure if it still is.

          You’d think (at the least) that they could find a way to (more-willingly) milk some more money out of them, via residences on campus. Then again, UC apparently makes that housing pay its own costs (unlike the city).

    2. Ron Oertel

      But, I would like to know if anyone actually believes that downtown development (or ANY realistic development) is going to be “cheap” in Davis.

      Because if so, they’re lying.

      Again, have we learned nothing from The Cannery, for example? And, how that apparently ended up being advertised in the Bay Area? I don’t dislike The Cannery, but did that lower housing prices?

      Would Trackside lower housing prices?

      And, what would the impact be from the shortage created by DISC?

      1. Ron Oertel

        Certainly “cheap” by Bay Area standards, though.

        Again, housing prices “differ” between every city, county, region, and state across the country. If one has a problem with that, then they have a problem with the capitalistic system itself.

        And if you don’t want to disrupt the existing equilibrium further, I’d suggest not “artificially creating” demand beyond what a given locale needs. We’ve already seen how that worked out in the Bay Area.

        1. Doby Fleeman

          Ron,

          For starters, there is no equilibrium as you claim.  Problem is a Davis-based, Davis-domiciled jobs shortage – that’s what is out of fiscal equalibrium.  In large measure, that’s what DISC is designed to address – with both jobs and housing.   Without the addition of proximate, local housing, you further exacerbate both VMT and local traffic.

        2. Ron Oertel

          I was referring to a “price” equilibrium.  Market prices ultimately always reflect supply and demand.

          Davis has an excess number of commuters through town, primarily due to an “excess” of jobs at UCD.

          DISC would create 24,000 automobile trips PER DAY.

          DISC will create a shortage (increased demand for) housing, as noted in the SEIR. Well-beyond that which is provided by the development itself. As a result, the development activists are advocating for housing shortages.

          We’ve been through all of this before, repetitively.

  14. Ron Oertel

    So, what’s the deal with this?  At least a decade since the developer obtained this approximately 100-home (infill) single-family home site:

    https://foutshomes.com/chiles-ranch/

    At one point, I recall that they were going to rebuild the “barn” as community space. I assume that’s (unfortunately) dropped by the wayside.

    I’m sure that many of you are familiar with the rather gruesome history of this site, of which the barn was a “leftover”. I recall being so pleasantly surprised to see a horse in there maybe 15 years ago.

    1. Ron Oertel

      Oh, wait – I do see something on the site map that might be a gathering place, at the site of the barn.

      I’m still looking for a photo of the house/mansion that used to be there.  Never have been able to find one.

      In any case, “go for it” – regarding redeveloping the site in some manner, I guess. Better than a peripheral development, at least.

      How is it that after more than a decade, this (still) hasn’t happened? I’ve asked this many times, on this blog (without response).

  15. Ron Oertel

    Oh, and while we’re at it, how about that large site inside the Mace curve (adjacent to the junior high and the new Nugget headquarters)?

    Currently outside of city limits, but a perfect place for a commercial and/or mixed use development.  Looks to be at least 15 acres, I’m guessing. And as such, is not included in any politically-motivated “inventory” of city properties.

    Put a proposal for THAT site on the ballot.

    1. Don Shor

      Oh, and while we’re at it, how about that large site inside the Mace curve (adjacent to the junior high and the new Nugget headquarters)?

      Currently outside of city limits, but a perfect place for a commercial and/or mixed use development. Looks to be at least 15 acres, I’m guessing. And as such, is not included in any politically-motivated “inventory” of city properties.

      Put a proposal for THAT site on the ballot.

      Are you referring to the property owned by Mariani Nut? We’ve addressed this several times.

      1. Ron Oertel

        Yes, I am.

        There’s no “nuts” growing on that property.  Has anyone approached them, or have they approached the city?  (That’s what no one has “addressed”.)

        It WILL be developed, at some point. It is no longer suitable for commercial farming, long-term. It is too small for that, and is surrounded by development.

        It’s also within the logical boundary (within the Mace curve), for city growth.

        If y’all were talking about that site (instead of a “true” peripheral proposal), I wouldn’t even be on here, most likely.

        1. Don Shor

          If the owner isn’t initiating a development project, it doesn’t seem like an efficient use of staff time.
          They farm the site, as we’ve told you several times before. It was bought by them long before Mace was reconfigured, as we’ve told you several times before. They own thousands of acres of land in the area, and aren’t in the development business. As we’ve told you several times before.
          What you’re doing here is standard operating procedure for people who are opposed to specific current project proposals and development in general: point to a site that is nowhere near even an inkling of a development project and assert that you would support ‘that’ non-existent proposal. The PG&E property has been a placeholder for growth opponents for about thirty years now.
          If the Mariani Nut Company decides to sell or develop their land there, we can have an interesting discussion about it. Bear in mind that they own property on both sides of Mace, including land that would require a Measure R/J/D/whatever vote. They’re farmers and probably have no interest in getting into the uniquely difficult Davis development squabbles.
          Until they do initiate a proposal, your suggestion is just a deflection.

        2. Ron Oertel

          If the owner isn’t initiating a development project, it doesn’t seem like an efficient use of staff time.

          It’s not worth a phone call?  They’re too busy processing developments outside of a logical boundary, and discounting commission input?

          They farm the site, as we’ve told you several times before. It was bought by them long before Mace was reconfigured, as we’ve told you several times before. They own thousands of acres of land in the area, and aren’t in the development business. As we’ve told you several times before.

          Irrelevant.  How much do you think that site is worth, if the zoning is changed to allow development?  Do you think that Mariana hasn’t thought about that?

          What you’re doing here is standard operating procedure for people who are opposed to specific current project proposals and development in general: point to a site that is nowhere near even an inkling of a development project and assert that you would support ‘that’ non-existent proposal.

          That would be a lie, regarding my motivation.  I would appreciate it if you would refrain from this type of comment.

          The PG&E property has been a placeholder for growth opponents for about thirty years now.

          I haven’t said anything regarding the PG&E site.  Never have, to my recollection.  Nor have I specifically presented the former fertilizer site on 2nd Street as a possibility for near-term development.  I realize that (unlike the site owned by Mariani), these other two sites likely won’t be redeveloped on the immediate horizon.

          If the Mariani Nut Company decides to sell or develop their land there, we can have an interesting discussion about it. Until that time, it’s just a deflection.

          Again, how do you know what they’re considering?  There is nothing preventing them from selling that site for development, and no other issues preventing them from pursuing that.  Again, how much do you think the land is worth to them, if it’s rezoned for development?  (Or, selling it to someone willing to try?)

          They’re developing the adjacent site (for the new Nugget headquarters) RIGHT NOW.

          And yet, the Vanguard is talking about a “shortage” of land. What b.s. (The other part of that being an assumption that the city continually needs to expand outward, forever.)

          Oh, and the increased demand for housing that something like DISC would create. Thereby creating a need for even more peripheral development!

        3. Alan Miller

          If y’all were talking about that site (instead of a “true” peripheral proposal), I wouldn’t even be on here, most likely.

          Let’s do it.  Getting RO to post less on housing issues is more important to the future of Davis than the housing that would be generated.

        4. Ron Oertel

          Well, getting you to stop trying to undermine Measure R would be worth it, as well.

          Maybe worry a little less about an extra floor on some (small) infill development, while we’re at it. Though that’s secondary.

          Truth is, that one approach (infill) doesn’t “prevent” the other (sprawl), even though it’s “sold” that way.

          One has to examine “created” demand (and the activists supporting it), to have any hope.

        5. Alan Miller

          Well, getting you to stop trying to undermine Measure R would be worth it, as well.

          That didn’t make sense.

          Maybe worry a little less about an extra floor on some (small) infill development, while we’re at it. Though that’s secondary.

          What many an obnoxious people won’t admit or compute is that one extra floor is what makes all the difference.  And why are you making that argument?  That’s not your wheelhouse.

          Truth is, that one approach (infill) doesn’t “prevent” the other (sprawl), even though it’s “sold” that way.

          True.  And I much saw this whole planning/infill catastrophe coming twenty years ago.  It was all quite predictable.

          One has to examine “created” demand (and the activists supporting it), to have any hope.

          I don’t have a comment on that.

          What I don’t think you get RO, is you are your own worst enemy on housing issues.  You tire people’s arse’s out with your endless repetitiveness and need to argue every point and get every last word.

          Did you never pick up on the concept of ‘less is more’?  No I don’t mean housing, I mean words.

        6. Ron Oertel

          Me:  “getting you to stop trying to undermine Measure R would be worth it, as well.”

          Alan:  “That didn’t make sense.”

          You’ve done so on this very page, repetitively.

          Alan:  “What many an obnoxious people won’t admit or compute is that one extra floor is what makes all the difference.  And why are you making that argument?  That’s not your wheelhouse.”

          Sure it does.  So does peripheral development, but with an added “benefit” of extra-harmful environmental and other impacts.

          There are plenty of “infill activists” who believe it is their “wheelhouse”.  I’m not one of them.

          Alan:  “I don’t have a comment on that.”

          You ought to.  Where do you think “demand” comes from?

          What I don’t think you get RO, is you are your own worst enemy on housing issues.  You tire people’s arse’s out with your endless repetitiveness and need to argue every point and get every last word.
          Did you never pick up on the concept of ‘less is more’?  No I don’t mean housing, I mean words.

          I keep getting challenged with repetitive b.s.  I really don’t care if you or anyone else get “tired” of me responding to repetitive challenges. Who is forcing you to read it? I don’t enjoy it, either.

          But the Vanguard is a harmful publication – make no mistake. And so are many of those on here. It also fosters an environment of personal attacks.

          Anything else you’d like to say?

        7. Ron Oertel

          Well, if you don’t, I do.

          I’ve come to the conclusion that none of the participants on here do so for reasons other than trying to prove their point.  With rare exception – regardless of the article or topic. (Though there is another article on the blog today in which I participated, but don’t have a strong opinion. It has not generated much interest from others.)

          Now, whether or not some readers have a more open mind regarding a given topic might be in question.

          But perhaps it is a good place to see how “committed” some are to a particular goal, or how willing they are to wade through the muck, at least.  Of that, I’m more sure of.

        8. Alan Miller

          Who is forcing you to read it?

          Who said I was reading all of it?  When it’s post after post after post, I skip it.

          Believe it or not, I’m trying to help.  I may not agree with you on Measure R, but you do have some good arguments.  People would read you more if you wrote less.

          But the Vanguard is a harmful publication – make no mistake.

          On that, my comment section compatriot, we agree.

        9. Ron Oertel

          Thanks.  Will consider that.

          At times, I fall into the trap of responding to repetitive, politically-oriented provocations (directed at me), which have already been addressed.

          You bring some much-needed humor to this blog.

        10. Ron Oertel

            When it’s post after post after post, 

          By the way, I did that sort of “on purpose” at one point (earlier), in response to your post.  😉

          I’ll just remember that the “third” post is the one that gets “ignored”.  (Oh, no – is this the “third” one, or the hundredth one?)

  16. Ron Oertel

    (I always find it amusing when I put forth realistic ideas/suggestions/questions without response, apparently because it doesn’t adhere to the political goals of some on here.)

      1. Ron Oertel

        And yet, you both responded – with Alan making the “point” that he doesn’t like reading what I have to say.

        By the way – for those of you who haven’t noticed, David is making a direct threat to Measure J in this article.  Not now, but for the future. He’s been attempting to do so, for some time.

        Perhaps he’s hoping that as the percentage of students (some of whom apparently work for development interests) increase in the city, they (along with development interests) will help him topple Measure R the next time around. While also helping David build his “empire”.

        Note the likes of Robb Davis and Gloria Partida, as well. How anyone who supports Measure R also supports those people (and the Vanguard itself) is beyond me.

      2. Ron Oertel

        But, the part that I find kind of amusing is when that same group (this core group of students, some of the “progressive” politicians, and the Vanguard) also turn against those who are concerned about large infill proposals, next to them. 

        Which aren’t even necessarily aimed at the student market.

        Didn’t see that coming, did they? Some of them then try to advocate for the destruction of peripheral farmland, instead – along with that same group.

        They’re willingly falling into the “divide and conquer” strategy, behind this whole thing.

        And yet, they’ll still get a massive development next to them.

      3. Ron Oertel

        Though I would have to note that at least Dan clearly supports Measure R.  Said so before the election, and after.

        Despite being rather development-oriented – as long as its not on his side of the city (in reference to that lawsuit against UCD’s prior LRDP, of which he was apparently a party).

  17. Robb Davis

    Note the likes of Robb Davis and Gloria Partida, as well. How anyone who supports Measure R also supports those people (and the Vanguard itself) is beyond me.

    FWIW, speaking for myself, I am not looking for “support.”  I am a private citizen who comes on this blog, like you do, to express opinions and try to deepen my understanding of the issues.

    1. Ron Oertel

      I didn’t imply that you were.

      I question those who supported you (and now Gloria), will also supporting Measure J/R.  Those are the people I don’t understand (in terms of the scope of the decisions that council members make).

      And if they’re also concerned about MRIC/ARC/DISC (while supporting you and Gloria), it just gets stranger and stranger.

      Then again, I also don’t understand the successful effort to recall a school board member based upon an undesirable skin color. So maybe it’s just me that’s out of touch, with whatever they’re thinking.

    2. Ron Oertel

      Nor do I understand how some object to an elected board making a decision regarding a replacement (for someone who left early), but are quite supportive of an elected board making important decisions regarding urbanization of farmland.

      And then, some even try to twist those conflicting positions into some kind of racial justice argument. But if there’s any possible politically-oriented way to do so (regardless of basic logic), I’m sure that you’ll see it on the Vanguard.

  18. Doby Fleeman

    Ron O,

    Addressing Ron G. and Alan’s points, if you were to provide ONE post – responding to the following observation – what would it be?

    “IFFFFFFFFFFF folks in Davis were inclined to seriously approach a discussion/process about the most important future planning needs and priorities facing the Davis community, what would be your three most important topics – ranked by priority?”

    In other words, are you willing to summarize your main issues for the benefit of the Vanguard readership (or whatever audience you are trying to persuade)?

    One brief, summary paragraph for each would be great!   One word for each would be even better.  Both would be perfect.

    1. Ron Oertel

      See, Alan?  I’m getting asked a question.  But actually, never been asked one like that before.

      Let’s see.

      1)  Preserve Measure J/R.

      2)  Reject DISC.  (I’d like to put this as #1, but J/R is what allows it to be rejected in the first place.)

      3)  Change the makeup of the council, over time.

      I could go over the reasons, but you asked me to be brief. As far as convincing anyone, I’m not sure that this publication (or its commenters) actually achieves any of that.

      1. Doby Fleeman

        Ron,

        Thanks for your brevity..

        I realize this must seem like one of those trick SAT questions, but there was a context provided:

        “about the most important future planning needs and priorities facing the Davis community, what would be your three most important topics – ranked by priority?”

        Would you care to expand?

         

         

    2. Don Shor

      “IFFFFFFFFFFF folks in Davis were inclined to seriously approach a discussion/process about the most important future planning needs and priorities facing the Davis community, what would be your three most important topics – ranked by priority?”

      This would be a great topic for a thread of its own.

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